Permanent Nomad

[7Wannabe5]

@white belt:

One of my polyamours has done international contract work as a mechanical engineer with construction experience several times. I briefly considered going to the Middle East with him for a year, but did not like the idea of being there with status of female under his sponsorship. For his profession the international contracts usually pay at least 20% more than he would get in U.S., but the conditions can be some combination of very weird to pretty bad. For instance, you might get your own deluxe apartment, but it will be located 2 hour dusty keep ride away from your work site. Or you might be able to find attractive young woman to live with you in your deluxe apartment, but she might hack into your computer/phone and discover that you actually have a wife back in the U.S. and get a teensy bit dramatic, and then continue to harbor a level of resentment that might cause her to send you Facebook message detailing the relative vigor of her new more age appropriate boyfriend etc. etc.

[Starper]

Moving to a new country every couple of months gets old real quick. You should try it especially if you're relatively young, dont have commitments and are ok with building your social circle almost entirely from scratch every few months. When this lifestyle does get old, which it inevitably will at some point, you can try to get a long term visa. For example, Thailand offers several options like Thai Elite or retirement visas. Mexico offers residency. In the Philippines, you can extend tourist visas for up to 3 years without leaving, then leave and come back.

A few random tips in no particular order
-Ideally have a place to return to in your home country (like your parents' basement lol) and also keep that address for getting mail, renewing drivers licenses, credit cards etc etc. If that's not an option, get a mailbox address in a tax free state and use it.
-Airbnbs and temporary housing in general has gotten much more expensive post Covid. Forget about 3 digit rents in most nomad hot spots. If you move every few months, it's difficult but not impossible to find good deals with landlords directly. Your best bet in most countries if FB marketplace
-If you travel alone and look for romantic partners, you'll have to rely on dating apps and/or night life. Both are probably the worst ways to meet people. If you have a spouse or partner who is willing and able to travel with you, that's like winning the lottery. Then you don't have to worry about any of that BS.
-Keep as little baggage as possible (both literally and figuratively speaking). The physical baggage is kind of self explanatory but many people want to become nomads and carry other baggage with them. Like a sick pet that that needs special meds and other treatment. Or maybe the person themselves are so sick that they have to carry a a bag full of controlled substances with them around the world and deal with customs, refilling them etc. Food allergies and other strict requirements or diets are also pretty bad for nomads. Having children also makes nomading much more difficult and expensive, especially you want to put them in a local school.
-You will meet some new friends and lose them quickly when you move on or they do. If you are in your 20s, there are hostels, co-living/co-working spaces and other ways to meet people, so losing them may not be too much of a problem, same as with romantic partners. It gets more difficult when you get older. Some hostels have an age policy, for example, up to 35yo. Even if they don't, you'll feel out of place and not enjoy staying there anyway. You can stay in touch with your nomad friends online and at some point hang out with them again in person when you happen to be in the same city but it's much more difficult than keeping a circle of friends in a city where both you and your friends stay long term.

[7Wannabe5]

I’ve stayed in youth hostels as an old person. I did feel a little bit out of place, but not enough to make me prefer paying for a hotel room. Also, if you are an older human attempting to hook up with other older human who is also traveling or local, it’s much more likely that they will have better accommodations than your youth hostel cot which they are willing to share. You just have to be okay with being a little bit of a moocher.

[chenda]

You just have to be okay with being a little bit of a moocher.

I've known several 20-something western women who whilst backpacking befriended older western men who were working in third works countries (for NGOs, multinationals etc) They enjoyed a break from the backpacker lifestyle, such as weekends in 5* resorts in exchange for providing some company and 'home comforts'. I suspect this is a tinder/social media driven phenomena.

[7Wannabe5]

@chenda;

Yeah,and if somebody is traveling for business, no skin off their nose if you share their accommodations or share their too much food expense account meal. I don't have very much experience with dating while traveling (as opposed to traveling while dating), but one of my sisters who lives in a very hipster location told me that it is also a thing to travel to more interesting places just to be able to date more interesting people. So, a friend of hers who wanted to meet the kind of cool guys who live in my sister's neighborhood came and visited her just for that purpose with multiple dates lined up ahead of time. The 69 year old author (one of my heroines) of "Adventures of a Round-Heeled Woman" also used to travel to NYC in order to hook up with extremely literate men back in the days of personal ads combined with e-mail.

[WFJ]

1. Isn't the OP already FI and not seeking employment abroad when they are talking about nomadism?

2. There seems to be a certain blindspot that to work (abroad or otherwise), you have to be employed by some company? What about those who work on their own, in short contracts or have their own business/activity or activities? Salaryman is not the only possibility. And even in that quadrant, WFH has somewhat broadened the possibilities.

1 Yes, but open to "working" if it makes assimilating easier. Hard to disentangle these two aspects as I've worked near most international locations considering living.

2. Was "freelance" picking up interesting opportunities as they presented themselves. Now, kind of just looking to coast, but surprised at the cost of being permanent in one country vs. mobile among several. Considering working in another country just to mitigate culture shock and quickly develop network of people.

[WFJ]

Don't know why, but I'm quite averse to any kind of NGO type employment. Might be the TPS culture, time commitment (starting and ending) or the ambiguous role of many of these organizations (where does the money come from?) but never applied to any NGO despite working next to many in the past (sometimes even living in their housing). Several friends have had lifetime careers in wide range of international alphabet agencies, but never applied despite the generous expat packages.

[WFJ]

Yeah, I wonder whether there are any parallels to the insurance industry in that applications are automatically rejected the first time just to cut down the number of eventual approvals. Many of these oftentimes vague and sometimes contradicting rules and regulations seem to be written to serve as a gotcha in order to reject applications. For this reason I use a lawyer/agent for anything beyond a tourist visa. They also make sure that applications end up on the right desk while preventing them from getting stuck there.

Anecdotal but "agent", "Fastrack fees" "don't want this to get lost fees" are usually carefully disguised bribes and also contributing to not participating in this activity. If I had no choice, then I'd pay, but leaving is a valid option. This may be driving more of the motivation as the "fees" I've heard people mention range from $700-$2000 (in addition to legal cost and loss of interest income) based on time of day, what agent had for lunch or how much they lost at the illegal casino last weekend. These "fees" are recurring and almost always go up over time.

[WFJ]

Moving to a new country every couple of months gets old real quick. You should try it especially if you're relatively young, dont have commitments and are ok with building your social circle almost entirely from scratch every few months. When this lifestyle does get old, which it inevitably will at some point, you can try to get a long term visa. For example, Thailand offers several options like Thai Elite or retirement visas. Mexico offers residency. In the Philippines, you can extend tourist visas for up to 3 years without leaving, then leave and come back.

A few random tips in no particular order
-Ideally have a place to return to in your home country (like your parents' basement lol) and also keep that address for getting mail, renewing drivers licenses, credit cards etc etc. If that's not an option, get a mailbox address in a tax free state and use it.
-Airbnbs and temporary housing in general has gotten much more expensive post Covid. Forget about 3 digit rents in most nomad hot spots. If you move every few months, it's difficult but not impossible to find good deals with landlords directly. Your best bet in most countries if FB marketplace
-If you travel alone and look for romantic partners, you'll have to rely on dating apps and/or night life. Both are probably the worst ways to meet people. If you have a spouse or partner who is willing and able to travel with you, that's like winning the lottery. Then you don't have to worry about any of that BS.
-Keep as little baggage as possible (both literally and figuratively speaking). The physical baggage is kind of self explanatory but many people want to become nomads and carry other baggage with them. Like a sick pet that that needs special meds and other treatment. Or maybe the person themselves are so sick that they have to carry a a bag full of controlled substances with them around the world and deal with customs, refilling them etc. Food allergies and other strict requirements or diets are also pretty bad for nomads. Having children also makes nomading much more difficult and expensive, especially you want to put them in a local school.
-You will meet some new friends and lose them quickly when you move on or they do. If you are in your 20s, there are hostels, co-living/co-working spaces and other ways to meet people, so losing them may not be too much of a problem, same as with romantic partners. It gets more difficult when you get older. Some hostels have an age policy, for example, up to 35yo. Even if they don't, you'll feel out of place and not enjoy staying there anyway. You can stay in touch with your nomad friends online and at some point hang out with them again in person when you happen to be in the same city but it's much more difficult than keeping a circle of friends in a city where both you and your friends stay long term.

Good points, have haphazardly checked most of these boxes. Mostly return to old spots or explore new spots based on contacts in the regions (usually have some community contact although often weak). Many of these tips sound like some "Yachties" (those who service and work on Yachts, not own them) I lived near in one area.

[WFJ]

7-month update. Random factors below, please add any other experiences if anyone has done this longer than a year. Can see myself doing this for several years but trying to avoid any pitfalls.

Travel = kind of a grind everywhere now. Went through 5 passport/boarding pass screening lines for a 2-hour flight recently. Many might be too old or sick to travel by air every few months. Traveling in new environments requires optimizing endless obtuse micro decisions vs. prior career of binary problem solving. Feel like I'm using a long dormant part of the brain when navigating a new environment for the first time and something that is an unintended benefit.

Visa policy = Free 90-day visa exemption on arrival without entrance restrictions are a HUGE benefit. The more countries that utilize this policy, the better this strategy will work. Right now, Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan and Japan (kind of Philippines) appear to have this policy which makes coming and going from these countries simple and inexpensive. Thailand, Indonesia, Vietnam, others have complex, arbitrary visa policies making travel to these locations for this strategy more difficult and costly.

Reason for travel to country X = Can only speculate, but when I travel to a specific country at a specific time of year, there is a clear reason beyond "It is cheap and the weather is good" and seem to easily find locals to help with settlement and issues. Suspect that travel for cheapness or weather will not result in locals being as helpful but can't do any experiment on this speculation. Building community within specific activities has been easy or due to other idiosyncratic issues.

Cost of permanent Visas = Several countries with extremely easy 90-day rules have an elaborate and expensive permanent visa schemes one local shared it will cost about $10k for approval, only lasts 5 years and most likely just as costly in 5 years as he tries to sell condos to foreigners and just went through this mess. The "official" cost of visa is something like $2000, but reality is much more. Agent basically said I could rent nicest apartment or pay for the right to rent the apartment all year in visa fees and then pay for rent just to have a visa. The longer these costly permanent policies persist, the longer this strategy makes sense.

Overall costs = Found that most countries have a decent supply of 1-3-month rentals, cell phone plans, gyms, other activities that align well with this lifestyle. Japan/Korea are probably the most difficult as the "Key money" deposit policies for long term rentals can be a mess to deal with, but some hotels give large weekly/monthly discounts depending on time of year. One must also enjoy "living local" as this can cut expenses by multiples. In my current apartment, a long-term resident is paying 250% more for an identical apartment as he did not want to spend $50 to buy sheets, towels and pillows and pay for utility usage ($20/month) rather than included. Spending $50+ $20/month would have saved him well over $3000 a year in rent in addition to permanent Visa he paid multiples over listed price in the official visa website.

Travel hacking = Miles and planning are key as I'll spend about $500-$750 on all travel/visas all year, while full retail without planning might have easily cost $3,000-$4,000. Overpaid one flight, missing a sale waiting for approval (cost maybe $100), have potential semi expensive airport transfer issue ($200), may overstay visa by a day ($10) other small error like this happen, but not when weighed against the cost of permanent residence.

Emergency fund = One must have a large emergency fund and a safe landing spot in case they run into a problem due to planning errors or unforeseen circumstances. COVID travel mess being the worst recent incident outside the control of any individual. Know of several people who had visas canceled, apartments withdrawn or just told to leave the country without explanation at their own expense. Friend of a friend got stuck in quarantine for over a month at their own expense due to changes in travel policies and a family who had to spend $20k to get back home during COVID. Without a large emergency fund, this strategy is risky, although these risks are also present for many visa holders depending on country.

Health = One must be healthy with good immune system. Many are just too old and sick to pursue this and can only pay up front for permanence. Would not recommend this for anyone on any kind of medication or mobility issues as one is just tempting fate getting stuck somewhere and experience a cascade of errors.

[chenda]

So you are liking it so far ?

[unemployable]

I deal with some of this stuff a couple orders of magnitude lower, traveling within the US for weeks or months without a permanent address.

It strikes me endless travel carries a greater frequency/need/temptation to solve problems with money — basically losing at ERE. You're stuck at the airport, you need a comfortable place to sleep, you want to avoid parts of the city you're not familiar with, your visa's running out and need to find another county to be in.

I'm always on the hunt for options A, B and C. And then an Option Z in my back pocket, such as driving an extra 100 miles to a national forest that I KNOW will have sleeping spots if I can't find something here (notice that's not "just get a hotel already"). That all takes work and time, as you mentioned in your second paragraph. But it's a game too, and as long as it stays fun and interesting I enjoy it. I like exploring Arkansas and it's got tons of forest. I like exploring Oklahoma a good bit less and it has less forest. So get a hotel room in OKC and reset.

[Western Red Cedar]

It strikes me endless travel carries a greater frequency/need/temptation to solve problems with money — basically losing at ERE. You're stuck at the airport, you need a comfortable place to sleep, you want to avoid parts of the city you're not familiar with, your visa's running out and need to find another county to be in.

I definitely agree with this perspective, but I think of nomadic ERE as basically a completely different system.* It requires different skills, approaches, and produces different second or third order effects. Lifestyle design on the road almost necessitates an alternative strategy to that with a home base. Approaching nomadism from an ERE mindset, as you are currently doing through housesitting, provides a little more slack to resort to solving problems with money.

*Not sure I'm thinking about this correctly though

[Ego]

Health = One must be healthy with good immune system. Many are just too old and sick to pursue this and can only pay up front for permanence. Would not recommend this for anyone on any kind of medication or mobility issues as one is just tempting fate getting stuck somewhere and experience a cascade of errors.

When we were staying in Ubud I would regularly stop running in the rice paddies to talk with an elderly retired lawyer from San Francisco who was out for his morning stroll. He had an agreement with some locals to care for him for the rest of his life. I don't know what his plans were for when things went downhill but I would imagine he had thought it through. There are a lot of very unhealthy old guys living in Thailand and Cambodia who do not have very deep pockets. I would be interested to read stories about how that unfolds.

[unemployable]

I definitely agree with this perspective, but I think of nomadic ERE as basically a completely different system.* It requires different skills, approaches, and produces different second or third order effects. Lifestyle design on the road almost necessitates an alternative strategy to that with a home base. Approaching nomadism from an ERE mindset, as you are currently doing through housesitting, provides a little more slack to resort to solving problems with money.

I don't mean that nomadism is somehow "losing at ERE", but that the stakes are bit higher and require more flexibility and robustness. That it's harder and requires more tools to always "win". Yeah, housesitting has a lot of outputs that also become inputs. But you can't say, "I'll be in Atlanta from the 9th to the 21st, I wonder who's house I can live at" — essentially it's the other way around.

You do want a rough budget, and mine does accommodate solving the occasional problem with money. I shoot for one paid night a month at a hotel when I'm on the road, and generally hit that. Sometimes I run into promotions for free nights or points where the reward exceeds the marginal cost, which I consider extracurricular to the one-night-a-month rule.

Hit an elk with your car, though — that's a fail.

[theanimal]

Hit an elk with your car, though — that's a fail.

Or with the right skillset, an opportunity to harvest 200 plus pounds of high quality meat. Probably a little bit more difficult to store and preserve while housesitting, but I figure it could be done with drying and curing.

[unemployable]

Username checks out.

[chenda]

There are a lot of very unhealthy old guys living in Thailand and Cambodia who do not have very deep pockets.

Yes I know one of them. Fortunately he has some wealthy relatives who reluctantly bailed him out but it's a precarious existance.

[unemployable]

There are a lot of very unhealthy old guys living in Thailand and Cambodia who do not have very deep pockets.

If they had deeper pockets they'd be somewhere else.

A lot of old guys can be seen walking around Bangkok with women a half to a third of their age. Presumably their motivations are different from those of your lawyer friend. Personally I found Bangkok to be surprisingly unamenable to walking as a leisure activity, and Thailand in general unamenable to being outside. Although maybe the northern parts are better in that regard.

[chenda]

You might also want to consider carbon footprint, especially if you're doing this long term. Although sustainable travel is probably an oxymoron the carbon footprint between aviation and rail can be enormous. Unfortunately, ticket pricing often doesn't reflect the externalities. This results in crazy things like a flight from London to Barcelona that can cost less than a train ticket from London to Oxford.