Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Where are you and where are you going?
suomalainen
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A Worthwhile Goal, a Freely Chosen Task

Post by suomalainen »

Earlier in this journal, @fish provided this quote and asked me my reaction to it:
VF wrote:
I consider it a dangerous misconception of mental hygiene to assume that what a man needs in the first place is equilibrium, or as it is called in biology, "homeostasis," i.e. a tensionless state. What man actually needs is not a tensionless state but rather the striving and struggling for a worthwhile goal, a freely chosen task.
In response, I wrote:
suomalainen wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:56 pm
If goals are your thing, by all means, go achieve them. But if they are not your thing (or not your thing right now), then why adopt the Frankl sentiment that you SHOULD have a "worthwhile" goal? What makes a goal "worthwhile" anyhow? In addition, broad statements about "what man actually needs" is too generic to be correct or even useful. Everything has its time and place. You can have worthwhile goals some days and tensionless states other days.
I think I was wrong. At the time, I was really struggling with boundaries and differentiating myself from external authority figures or the authority of culture. I detested the imposition of others' ideas on me - the idea that I was incapable of making up my own mind and should instead adopt the values of some other "better" human. But now, with a little less of that more-youthful piss and vinegar, I think I'm better able to accept others' ideas around ideas of general applicability. Or, perhaps more accurately, I'm better able to ignore certain triggering words and phrases and to tamp down confirmation bias from kicking in too quickly, so that I have an actual chance to analyze challenging ideas more neutrally. In other words, I can better differentiate the triggers from my reactions to better understand each.

Back to the quote, it seems to me now that getting triggered about the value-judgment "worthwhile" is my boundary issue about my-values vs others-values. Frankl wasn't even making a judgment about what is worthwhile but seemed to leave it to the experiencer to decide (i.e., "freely chosen"), so my reaction to it was just dumb. The idea of general applicability he was getting at is really no different from this:
FBeyer wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:47 am
Positive Psychology has boiled people's happiness down to three major components: The Sensory, the Engaged, and the Meaningful life.
Sensory: Eating, sex, hiking, good company, concerts, exhibitions etc. These things you get better at by training your ability to appreciate them ie Mindfulness. The primary pitfall of this is Hedonic Adaptation, naturally.
Engaged: Flow, put shortly. Something that really engages you and challenges you at the same time. Something you get good at by repeated practice and by seeking out challenges that are intellectually challenging to you and also fit within your framework of interests.
The Meaningful: Doing something for others while experiencing and appreciating the effect it has. Help someone move ahead in life, do something that reaches beyond you and help your community, for any given of definition of community.
I changed jobs to do the same job for a bit more money. It's not quite the same job. In my old job, I felt that I wasn't really needed. I was managing lawyers more than lawyering. It felt ... useless to me and therefore worthless. At my new job, I'll be doing the same underlying work, but without the management layer. In other words, I'll be lawyering more than managing. To me, that feels more useful, more worthwhile.
suomalainen wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:40 pm
Where I'm struggling is work ... Anecdote: I was talking to a client/friend the other day and I was arguing that you could fire all the lawyers in the department save one (whose job would be to train people to deal with outside counsel directly and to be there for minimal supervision and support). He disagreed with me and said that in-house counsel is highly valued and he would keep every last one of us. Maybe I should stop judging my perceived value by my own standards (i.e., a competent business person should be able to make do without me) and accept the fact that this competent business person (i.e., the customer/consumer/client) values the services I provide. Perhaps that is the place I can find meaning? That my work is valued by others/consumers, even if I can't see it?
suomalainen wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:01 pm
Admittedly, and I sorta feel like a pansy for feeling this way, but I like the idea of being busier because I like the feeling of accomplishing something and being valued by others. At my current job, I only get to feel like I accomplish something occasionally, because everything is over-lawyered. I work on deals with at least 2-3 law firms on them, plus any number of in-house counsel (like me). Only when I catch something that the 15 other lawyers have missed do I feel like I added any value. It's tough to go to work with that psychology.
And so it's the "freely chosen" part that is empowering to me. I felt like I was stagnating - both financially and in terms of not really being engaged. I could have tried to accept the management as useful, worthwhile or engaging, but I just could never really get there over 10 years. It just wasn't me. So I kept itching to find something that might fit me better. But I didn't want to go back to a law firm because I dislike their bugs more than I like their features. With this new job, I am hoping to get a couple more features (more money, more engagement) and to eschew adding any bugs. It's a fully remote position, so I am hopeful. Time will tell if it was a good move.

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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by jacob »

Being goal- or result-oriented is a distinct modernist value as is the "strive-drive" to "improve oneself". Whenever I hear this, I can't help but thinking about ST:TNG which despite taking place in the 2360s is oh so very 1980s in its values.

Other orientations include being family-oriented, people-oriented, problem-oriented, rule-oriented, or being/spiritually oriented.

Oftentimes a given orientation seems completely nonsensical insofar it differs from one's own. Schopenhauer likely applies here in that one can not choose one's orientation; rather it is chosen for one. The key, then, is to find the match and pursue it accordingly.

On a wider scale, this is also important in terms of finding a good cultural match. For example, it's tough to be a result-oriented person in a people-oriented culture or a problem-oriented person in a rule-oriented culture.

suomalainen
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by suomalainen »

I'm not too hung up (any more) on the words "goal" or "task". In that sense, I think of the idea in a bit broader sense than the orientation idea you raise. So, if you are of a particular orientation, you may choose to pursue goals or tasks or actions that align with that orientation.

Now, I focus more on the "worthwhile" and the "freely chosen". I agree that what one finds worthwhile or what is one's inclination to choose are both more or less given to you (genetics), so your only choice really is to pursue goals or do tasks that are in alignment with your values (what you find worthwhile) and your orientation (what you naturally are inclined to want). Therein lies contentment. Square-pegging round holes for too long (whether due to poor self-awareness, cultural or other exogenous pressures, or lack of opportunity) generally leads to discontent and frustration, but the only way to "find the match and pursue it accordingly" is to trial-and-error the shit out of it.

And then, yes, broadening to find cultural match can be done. I do wonder, however, if there's a point at which you get "too much of a good thing". I think a culture with basic freedoms so that people are free to find their tribes is a good thing. But if you get too incestuous, I think you also should expect to get the problems related thereto. That seems to be a bit where we are in the United States these days. It makes it too easy to "otherize" when in reality, the differences among humans aren't that big.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by classical_Liberal »

suomalainen wrote:
Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:31 am
Therein lies contentment. Square-pegging round holes for too long (whether due to poor self-awareness, cultural or other exogenous pressures, or lack of opportunity) generally leads to discontent and frustration, but the only way to "find the match and pursue it accordingly" is to trial-and-error the shit out of it.
The vast majority of folks in the Western world looking for Financial Independence are stuck in a feeling of inability to try new shaped holes. Mostly this is psychological, though there are situations where necessity really is necessity, even in relatively rich and privileged places. Although in forums like this it is a rarity.
suomalainen wrote:
Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:31 am
...people are free to find their tribes is a good thing. But if you get too incestuous, I think you also should expect to get the problems related thereto. That seems to be a bit where we er, if there's a point at which you get "too much of a good thing".
I always go back to paradox of choice in such matters. It's a huge pink elephant that is rarely discussed wrt lifestyles, jobs, purposes, etc.

Glad to see you learn and grow as a human. Glad the new job is shaped a bit better for your "peg".

Take care @suo

Biscuits and Gravy
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Biscuits and Gravy »

Bae, you best be careful with this introspection. Page 34 be loomin’.

suomalainen
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Now vs Not Now

Post by suomalainen »

A few big themes in my life have been:

1) this idea that there's An Answer out there, most other people know it, and I'm just an idiot.
2) not being able to enjoy what I have (practice gratitude) but rather focusing on "what it isn't".

Recently I was thinking about other people - families mostly. Wondering if the partners are satisfied with their partnership; wondering if the parents are satisfied with their parenthood. There are parades and parties and practices. You rarely see people yelling at each other in public. Mostly there are smiling faces or bored (yet unconcerned) faces. So I generally expect that these other people, who obviously have Got Their Shit Together, are generally happy. They are doing it Right.

And then there's me. I'm basically always trying to figure out what's "wrong", meaning that I spend an inordinate amount of time finding things that are wrong so I may fix them. Call it a personality fai...quirk. Everything's a nail to a hammer.

But the older I get, and the more I get to know people more deeply, the more I start to see the cracks in the public facade. That successful guy who won't tell people why he's not in the office? It's just a "medical issue"? He has cancer. The happy parents celebrating a child's milestone? She had cancer. They haven't had sex in years. The fathers who bring their kids to endless practices and tournaments? They can't wait for it to be over.

Turns out, I'm not so special. I thought I was the only idiot figuring shit out the hard way, but it turns out, it's all of us. My particular brand of crazy might be somewhat uncommon among my social groups, but everyone is dealing with something.

Also recently, I had decided to play a word game on my phone. It has tournaments every weekend where participants are slotted into 100-person tournaments on an assigned-as-you-start basis (so random-ish). I played for a little bit and saw that I was in first place in the first hour and was slightly outpacing second place. I decided to go for the win (I've only won one other time as a win generally takes about 10 hours of effort over a weekend). After playing three hours on Friday night, I felt a little bit like a loser. Like, that what I was doing was dumb and meaningless. But over the course of the weekend, it struck me that I could just choose to look at this little meaningless thing that I wanted as no dumber than a parent who chooses to bring kids to a soccer tournament; or a fisherman who goes to a fishing tournament; or even a professional athlete participating in their sport. We're all just ... doing stuff. Why shouldn't I just look at my freely chosen tasks as freely chosen and enjoy them, even if they aren't Meaningful?

And then it hit me - most of my adult life, and I've written about this previously, I've lived in the future (or the past). I look at my current freely chosen tasks not as a thing I want to do, but as a thing I have to do - a thing I have to get through. It doesn't matter if it was a work day or an activity with the kids or sometimes even an activity by myself. I got started in this thing I freely chose to do and ... I trudged my way through it. I couldn't wait for it to get done so that "I can have some time to myself." But now, over the past winter, when I've gotten time to myself, I had no idea what to do, so I just sat in front of the TV. The insanity of choosing to do something and then orienting myself to it as a chore so that I could have time to choose to do something when I had nothing else on my want-to-do queue, was striking.

And then I watched a youtube video. It seems like the man in the couple is super into fitness - does competitions (and wins or places in a fair number of them - the background wall in his office while he was monologueing was full of ribbons and medals) and he's always trying to tweak his training to get faster and stronger. He finally got his wife to do some race and she was totally lackadaisical about it. He got sort of frustrated by it, but seemed to try to not criticize his wife. And as the year progressed, he seemed to more adopt his wife's attitude of just trying to enjoy the experience instead of turning it into work. By the end, he admitted that the events he did with his wife as a team were the most fun he's had in such events in a while.

The video reminded me of the power of just doing things for fun and ... it reminded me that it's okay to just do things for fun - and it doesn't matter what it is. We don't have to compare our desires and what we find fun with anyone else's. There's no ranking or moral superiority in one hobby or activity over another. We get to do whatever it is we want to do.

**

It has always bothered me that I felt like my first marriage failing was kind of a personal failing - that I just couldn't figure out exactly what wasn't working and what could have made it work. And then I realized that the probable answer is one of two things: either it was a skill and preference problem or it was a capability and boundary problem.

Skill and preference: my preferences and her preferences differ thereby causing friction, but with sufficient skills, the friction is eased and each partner turns toward the other and they grow closer.

Capability and boundary: my boundaries and her boundaries differ thereby causing friction, but because the friction is not caused by mere preferences but rather harder boundaries, it becomes more challenging. Further, it is possible that one or both of us is simply incapable of gaining the skills that could be necessary (even if not sufficient) to even try to address the friction at the boundary layer.

With this realization, acceptance is easier, as it isn't a "failing" of skills or selfishness at not bending a preference; it was just an undesirable mix of capabilities and boundaries.

**

Even though I started a new job that provides me more money, I have found myself thinking about the money in a negative way. At my old job, I basically spent all the money I earned (save for 401k contributions) - on alimony, child support and myself. I just accepted that I wasn't going to get anywhere and that I'd re-evaluate in five years when my last kid graduates high school. It was nice knowing in the back of my mind that at that point I could quit and live off of a few jafis if I wanted to (and didn't want/need to further support my kids). But this new job offers me more money, so I *am* able to save some money out of my paychecks outside of the tax-advantaged accounts. So now I have a problem - what do I do with this additional money? A few options that are other-wise advantaged (employee stock plan, deferring bonuses) reduce my liquidity but is the way to maximize financial returns. And so I found myself stressing about it, even though it's purely voluntary, and the consequence is that I'd get slightly less money than I could if I maximized (but still more than I got at my old job). It's like the old satisficing vs maximizing issue.

**

@gravy came across a Seneca quote
[Fear and hope are traveling partners.] I am not surprised that they proceed in this way; each alike belongs to a mind that is in suspense, a mind that is fretted by looking forward to the future. But the chief cause of both these ills is that we do not adapt ourselves to the present, but send our thoughts a long way ahead. And so foresight, the noblest blessing of the human race, becomes perverted.

Beasts avoid the dangers which they see, and when they have escaped them are free from care; but we men torment ourselves over that which is to come as well as over that which is past. Many of our blessings bring bane to us; for memory recalls the tortures of fear, while foresight anticipates them. The present alone can make no man wretched.
**

And so renews the project to refocus on the present; learning from, yet letting go of, the past; and anticipating and making reasonable plans for, yet fretting not over, the future.

**

Weight came down below 230 for a week or so and then we had a birthday party, so bounced back up. Diet still going strong with 50+ different plants per week. I've been running and biking now too. Life is good.

Smashter
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Smashter »

I found that update very soothing. It could be because I am days away from participating in a competitive sporting event that is causing me an undue amount of stress. It’s amazing how easy it is to forget that the whole point is to have fun. Thanks for the reminder.

I also like your point about how happy faces in public don’t mean people aren’t battling demons. I grew up in a very nice area where the general vibe was that everything was perfect. I was surprised to learn recently about not one but two members of the community who lived double lives, with entirely separate families they kept hidden from their “main” family.

Henry
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Henry »

I had this thought the other day. If I was offered the opportunity to choose between the following two options: (1) Roll the dice with a high degree chance of having a much better life with very a slight possibility of having a slightly worse life or (2) Keep the life I have, I wouldn't need to think about it. I would chose 2. You get to a point where life is just life.

Henry
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Henry »

Smashter wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 2:58 pm
I was surprised to learn recently about not one but two members of the community who lived double lives, with entirely separate families they kept hidden from their “main” family.
When I was younger, I would say what the fuck. As I got older, I would say how the fuck. Now that I am old, I say why the fuck.
Last edited by Henry on Tue May 30, 2023 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jacob
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by jacob »

I think it's worth distinguishing between "happy" and "not unhappy". Humans often end up unhappy in their pursuit of happiness by failing to get their shit together first; whereas if they focused on getting/having their shit together, they may not be happy, but at least they will not be unhappy. The Norcis usually take the top three of happiest countries in the world. However, this doesn't mean that everybody walks around being full of positive emotions. Scandinavians answer this question from a perspective of "not being unhappy" in the sense that "shit" like health care cost, educational opportunities, crime risk, subcultural tolerance, loss of employment,... is not something the vast majority ever has to worry about.

Biscuits and Gravy
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Biscuits and Gravy »

@Jacob Maybe it should be reworded to “Humans often end up unhappy in their pursuits.” No need to specify. A person’s desire for superfluous things when “nature’s needs are easily provided and ready to hand” is the source of unhappiness. (Some more Seneca for you.) Or, to phrase it another way, “If the good seeks any portion of itself from without, it begins to be subject to the play of Fortune.” (Again, Seneca.)

@Suo “What, then, is to be done? To make the best of what is in our power, and take the rest as it occurs…. I have lost nothing that belongs to me; it was not something of mine that was torn from me, but something that was not in my power has left me.” - Epictetus

suomalainen
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by suomalainen »

I dunno. While I agree that unhappy --> not happy --> not unhappy --> happy are different things and perhaps on a spectrum, I think there are additional dimensions that make human contentment more complex than a simple 2-D spectrum. For example, one can have their shit together ... until they don't. Life has a way of throwing problems at you that you aren't really prepared for - you have to do the figuring on the fly. New school, new job, new town, new partner, new child, new illness, new injury, new death - these are all stressors that cause one to react either healthily or unhealthily. And underneath the common stressors are nuances in personality and mental and physical health status. Humans are all a complex mess.

That said, there are some similarities among human personalities and mental and physical health challenges. There are similarities in phases of life and/or typical stressors (typical for one's time and geography and culture). So, yeah, there are some aphorisms of general applicability, but there are also some nuances. Obviously, for me, my brand of anxiety is ruminating on past mistakes and fretting about future options. My background is one of not being taught self-confidence, but of being taught self-doubt; not of self-competence-reliance, but of relying on the competence of authority figures. Put that hot mess in a blender and you get 33 pages of this shit.

I might feel like an idiot (again), but I don't, not really. 33 pages of some dude struggling with the same old shit, and re-discovering the same old answers, and struggling to "solve" his problems in one fell swoop ... well, it's being human, man. There is no stasis, no being. There is only movement and doing. This might be me running up against the limits of my capabilities, my inability to embrace with unconcerned joy certain stressors that I find particularly challenging. But so what if I suck at it? I'm still here. I'm still trying. To no other end or purpose than for itself. What else is life?

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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by mountainFrugal »

Out of all of this though... you also have a super capable, smart, (I assume attractive) partner to whisper sweet stoic nothings into your ear as you fall asleep. Seems pretty dope to me.

Biscuits and Gravy
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Biscuits and Gravy »

suomalainen wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 5:13 pm
33 pages of some dude struggling with the same old shit, and re-discovering the same old answers…
“Whatever is assigned to us by the terms of our birth and the bend in our constitutions, will stick with us, no matter how hard or how long the soul may have tried to master itself. And we cannot forbid these feelings any more than we can summon them.” - Seneca

“I can quote dead guys all day long.” - The capable, smart, definitely attractive woman you’re banging.

But for real, the point is that especially when life throws shit at you, you know and hold onto your solid self, and that is your source of peace, contentment, not un-happiness. No one can rock your boat but you. Although I can rock your world hehehe okay I’m done.

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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

It's most likely that not being unhappy is the more expensive option. Somebody is bound to be making Dutch Book twixt the foolish optimist and the risk averse.

Also, it's easier to strategize given a static field, so the desire to successfully strategize may result in over-paying for a static field. Those of us who are inherently more likely to rely on tactics-in-the-moment are less likely to take on this cost. Also, sometimes (not usually) a crappy outcome is more interesting than a good outcome. For instance, staying in a bad marriage to avoid the possibility of a lot of very bad dates is not a choice that I would make (again.) Change will happen. In my divorce support group, the funny kind of thing that would happen fairly frequently would be that the spouse who felt themselves to be long suffering but sticking with it would be shocked when their partner was the one who asked for divorce or had an affair.

Henry
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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by Henry »

Clausewitz the great military strategist (and still taught today) distinguished between strategy and tactics. It's a heuristic/dynamic I use all the time.

It's amazing how people think they have made all the proper preparations to go into battle but fail to notice that right behind their backs is a body of water.

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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:36 am
Also, it's easier to strategize given a static field, so the desire to successfully strategize may result in over-paying for a static field. Those of us who are inherently more likely to rely on tactics-in-the-moment are less likely to take on this cost.
This distinction is well-taken and important. Since time and effort is finite, one can either prioritize one or the other or attempt both half-way.

I'm the other way around. My temperament/personality is mostly strategic. As such, "my shit [actually] is together" and life almost never throws anything at me that I didn't foresee or prepare for well in advance. This also means not having to pay to maintain an arsenal of tactical skills that are rarely used anyway. As such I thrive in complicated and complex environments, whereas I struggle in chaotic environments (by Cynefin) that requires those tactical skills I rarely need to practice. However, I'm usually capable of avoiding the latter strategically ;-) I don't see a functional difference between a static or a dynamic field (I don't think about this stuff analytically). What matters is the amount of unknown-unknowns. One can prepare for known-unknowns and avoid stepping into situations with unknown-knowns.

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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@jacob:

Yeah, based on my current grade in Network Engineering, I would say that I do NOT thrive in a Complicated environment. My gut feeling is that it might be better if it all just burns down vs. any humans having to be tortured by learning such boring arbitrary shit. However, I do not feel that way about, for instance, Abstract Algebra. So,my preference would likely be Complex towards Chaotic rather than Complex towards Complicated.

Or if I goto permaculture for alternate model, the chaotic edge is found between two complex systems (woods and field, field and stream), so the complicated edge would be more like concrete patio paver and grass, or lawnmower and grass; it's expensive to maintain. Realms also become increasingly more complicated as they are over-due for paradigm shift in complexity. For instance, all the various Compicated methods of 20th century Frequentist statistics, collapsing into the Chaos of the current crisis of irreproducible results in science. Not unlike (or even unrelated) to the financial collapse due to increasingly Complicated financial instruments.

Sleeping Well At Night is a pleasure like any other (bowl of pudding, demolition derby tickets) that can be purchased on the market.

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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by daylen »

Strategically choosing a path through both a gain landscape and a loss landscape. Tactically ascending hills and descending valleys in the chaotic fog of these landscapes.

Interestingly, we tend to focus on loss functions rather than gain functions (i.e. not being unhappy) across many domains. Gains often present high dimensional trade-offs when maximized. Whereas losses pool into low dimensional pockets when minimized. Concave vs convex stability. Most people I've asked tend to agree that heaven is much more difficult to imagine than hell.

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Re: Suomalaisen Päiväkirja

Post by suomalainen »

Yeah. I mean, the chaotic (dynamic) vs static and simple vs complex ideas are understood. I guess I gave up the ghost in that realm when I had kids (and added even further chaos and complexity when adding in @gravy's kids). And it's not like you're not "prepared" for things on some level, that you haven't thought about it. But there's a difference between knowing about something (having thought about it) and knowing something (having lived it). It's the combination of the practical and the emotional and the relational across so many landscapes and backgrounds that's so draining. I think that might be why I sometimes go "I just need a fucking break" and then when I get one, I don't know what to do with myself other than get fat on the couch numbing my brain and body with food and drink and tv.

@mF - yeah, @gravy is wonderful, but no relationship is a cure for personal shit. That's a tip, kids, write it down. We all have to carry our own crosses no matter how much we (codependently) try to foist them onto others.

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