Collective Effervescence

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Scott 2
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Collective Effervescence

Post by Scott 2 »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_effervescence
Collective effervescence (CE) is a sociological concept coined by Émile Durkheim. According to Durkheim, a community or society may at times come together and simultaneously communicate the same thought and participate in the same action. Such an event then causes collective effervescence which excites individuals and serves to unify the group.[1]

So emotions experienced in groups are heightened.

I came across this concept reading The Coddling of the American Mind. The author presents it as a core human need, one we're drawn to seek out. At a large scale - think religion, concerts, watching sports. At a smaller scale - work, volunteer events, group exercise classes.

It warrants consideration in lifestyle design. Especially for a retiree. Leaving work might remove one's only source of collective effervescence.

Using this lens - periods of my life where I felt adrift, coincided with lack of group experience. While never considered explicitly, I would seek ways to satisfy the need. Working from home lead to yoga classes. Retiring lead to volunteering. Despite being an unapologetic introvert, I still pursued it.

Maybe this is obvious to the extroverts. But it feels like a revelation. Stadium events make so much more sense. Of course watching baseball can make a grown man cry. Collective effervescence is hard wired.

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Sclass
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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by Sclass »

This is powerful stuff. I rank it in there with drugs and sex.

A side of my family was clergy. They literally lived off their flock. I picked up some of their craft as a child. Group singing, holding hands and chanting repetitively together, fireside prayers at night. All tribal stuff. Pushes our primitive buttons. It can be powerful medicine if you need it.

I can still remember faces with eyes rolling back into their heads as they sang and held hands. They must have been getting really high on their own drugs. Stupid repetitive songs with the same lines over and over again. Reciting standard prayers together in harmony. They knew how to pull the strings tied to your soul.

It’s kind of sad when I see all kinds of different groups using the same old tricks on people. We are wired for this stuff. We are tribal animals. Some people more than others need this kind of order.

Never thought of a baseball game this way but yeah…I get it. Soccer hooliganism must have its roots in this. Standardized cheers. Standardized drinking songs.

I picked up some of the hypnosis tricks off my family. It came up at strange times. Like in sales meetings with master closers. There were people I’d have to tell “ok, I’ve heard enough, we need to stop and think about the next step…alone.” Preacher’s sons no doubt. They used all the tricks I’d learned - the rhythmically swaying head and hands and the smooth cadence in their voice that kept you hanging on their words. Stop, just stop. I tried that stuff on people in college with varying degrees of success. A fun dorm trick. An old trick.

It’s like that creepy shit tone of Earl Nightingale. It’s 100% intentional. So many con men are preacher’s sons.

Maybe I should join up with something. I may live longer. Is it possible to break this tribal dependence in our biology?

ertyu
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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by ertyu »

I'd say using it skillfully is better than breaking it.

daylen
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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by daylen »

Tightly linked with Fe or extroverted feeling. Humans are tribal like water is wet.

Pairs with Ti to generalize various feeling sets or clusters and check statements of group affiliation for consistency. Even to the point of tribal warfare between ideologies that once diverged based upon the flip of a semantic coin.

Scott 2
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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by Scott 2 »

daylen wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 8:50 pm
Even to the point of tribal warfare between ideologies
The author discusses degradation into us vs them thinking. He focuses on a safety culture in American universities, why it occurred, the harm it causes, and what to do.

The last bit reminded me of Adam Grant's Think Again. Similar prescriptions.

I find myself re-evaluating a lot of group behaviors, that previously made no sense. From protests to Zumba class.

Why flip a car over a basketball game? Trample people over a sale? Because some people are just jerks? Alcohol? Maybe. But it's also the power of collective effervescence.

Learning to recognize and tap into those emotions is an important skill. I see it as an area where my own development is stunted. Which greatly impairs my understanding of others.

I'm no more evolved than people derided as crazies. I'm merely absent circumstances where a crowd sent my brain into overdrive. Could they have handled it better? Sure. Does it make them savages? Maybe not.

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Sclass
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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by Sclass »

ertyu wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 8:30 pm
I'd say using it skillfully is better than breaking it.
There’s this assumption in there that this is something we need to survive. Like air.

Also do we really know how all this works? I saw the surgeon general get on camera yesterday saying loneliness kills. Really? Why does it kill? How? Does it kill every person who goes it on their own?

Maybe some people need more tribal salve to fight off debilitating stress?

What does skillful use mean?

I get it. Some people need to belong to something to feel human. I’m wondering if I’m killing myself by breaking my ties with all this stuff. In the short term I haven’t seen much benefit in joining up with the standard tribes. They all seem to have one thing in common - they offer a sense of belonging in exchange for my resources.

ETA - when I see people dressed in their team colors, faces painted up in team color makeup, flipping cars I can draw the parallels to military groups in uniform marching in step, political groups with their hats, or clergy and choir in robes. It’s not just alcohol but we all know mixing drugs is a power up.

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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by jacob »

Metaphorically speaking, "crack cocaine" is not the same for everyone. Basically, we're not "addicted" to the same kind of "drugs". More specifically, we don't all have the same sensitivity towards various neurotransmitters like dopamine and serotonin even if we all have the same kinds of neurotransmitters. As such, I think we need to be very careful about generalizations about what and how much "everybody" needs or wants.

For example, while "collective effervescence" is quite popular, "scientific curiosity" is not.

Many humans extrovert their feelings (Fe) to the rest of the tribe, but not everyone. The ability to read the emotions in someone else's face or behavior came many millions of years before language did. It's a herd animal ability that can easily be recognized in the family dog or the family horse for that matter. Language and the ability to logic and accurately intuit evolved much latter and only humans can do it (as far as we can tell---I ignore trick exceptions).

The human genotype contains all these various brain parts. However, they're not equally strongly expressed in all phenotypes (individually). While hardwired, some of those wires don't carry much current at all in some of us. In others, they carry a lot.

So I did some math based on Jungian cognitive functions. Specifically, the FeSi attractor of such things as church service, anniversaries, celebrations, ceremonies, ...

In order of who is most likely to like or love such activities.

Has Fe and Si in the top two: ("Crack cocaine") 26.1%
ESFJ (FeSiNe) 12.3% (probably the one organizing it)
ISFJ (SiFeTi) 13.8% (probably the one who bakes the cookies)

Has Fe or Si in the top two: (Strong belief that this is necessary activity) 14.1%
ENFJ (FeNiSe) 2.5% (human connection)
ISTJ (SiTeFi) 11.6% (obligation)

Has Si in top three: (Goes for the stories/poetry/rules/obligations) 16.4%
ESTJ (TeSiNe) 8.7%
INTP (TiNeSi) 3.3%
INFP (FiNeSi) 4.4%

Has Fe in the top three: (Goes to be/do together with people) 9.0%
ESTP (SeTiFe) 4.3%
ENTP (NeTiFe) 3.2%
INFJ (NiFeTi) 1.5%

Has Si or Fe below the inferior: (Best enjoyed in rare but large doses) 8.6%
ENFP (NeFiTeSi) 3.2%
ISTP (TiSeNiFe) 5.4%

Top of the shadow: (Goes for the spectacle, misses the point) 17.3%
ESFP 8.5%
ISFP 8.8%

Bottom of the shadow: (Mostly focused on how to avoid it) 3.9%
INTJ 2.1%
ENTJ 1.8%

A similar table can be constructed for SeFi attractors like sing-alongs, rave parties, riots, live sports watching, protest marches, ...

Note that FeSi in the top three covers 2/3 of the population ... which is a lot for just two (out of 8) cognitive functions. You won't find neocortex-only type preferences in nearly the same numbers. This is why sports stadiums are much bigger than libraries.

A freedom-to person feels lost if their preferences aren't stimulated. For example, the times I've felt lost in retirement is when I haven't had "an idea for a grand unified theory (Te) of everything (Ni) that felt like important (Fi) work, damnit".

(A freedom-from person feels stuck or imprisoned if their preferences aren't sufficiently stimulated.)

Note that retirement often leads to play around with preferences deeper in their stack insofar one's career burned out the dominant/auxiliary preferences that one was likely hired for. For example, after retiring, I did a lot of sports (4th Se); something that had gone underused for years just staring at a screen. In the past few years I've focused a lot on introspection (3rd Fi) which I used to be interested in during my late teens and twenties but then largely put aside.

Conversely, I still dedicate much time towards figuring out if and how I can somehow get out of group activities (7th Fe) or find an alternative insofar doing things as a group is not absolutely necessary. (I see groups much like Sclass does above. They want more from me than I want from them.) I've disliked being part of group activities for as long as I can remember (age 4). To stretch an idiom a bit, one is company, two is a crowd, and three+ is insanity.

This also goes for reminiscing or talking about what everybody has been up to lately (8th Si). I just die a bit on the inside when people start on that. It's the equivalent of asking the organizer of the church party (ESFJ) or the one who baked the cookies (ISFJ) what their thoughts are on applying the spectral theorem to everyday living. "Huh?! What a weird question. Why are you asking?"

Finally, it always seems "obvious" to anyone that everybody out to enjoy the same thing as they do. Insofar one belongs to a type with major representation in society, this becomes an article of faith to the point where one doesn't even question the existence of other preferences (there's really no need to). For example, "everybody needs to talk about how they're feeling or what they've been up to lately, don't they?" No, not everybody.

Scott 2
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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by Scott 2 »

jacob wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 8:24 am
The human genotype contains all these various brain parts. However, they're not equally strongly expressed in all phenotypes (individually).
I find exploration of the weaker expressions enriches life. As if they are latent capacities, waiting to be activated.

My instinct is to flee groups as well. Making this concept feel especially foreign. But is the wiring fixed? Or am I avoiding new and stressful paths?

I lean towards the latter. I can be more of what I'm not. Seeking balance offers the rewards of low hanging fruit.

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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by jacob »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:22 am
I find exploration of the weaker expressions enriches life. As if they are latent capacities, waiting to be activated.
I agree that this kind of exploration both deepens and broadens perspectives. I would not go so far as to say they're latent capacities. Not everybody has an "inner Einsteinian genius" that just needs to be activated. It's more accurate to think of capacities as a combination of talent and focus. Insofar your brain rewards your activity with a given neurotransmitter, you're more likely to do more of that activity. And in turn, you're likely to get better at it. And being good at something is better than being bad at something or being effectively oblivious to it.

On the other hand, going against your own reward system is possibly a hellish experience depending on how strongly you go against it. Note that neurotransmitters have a Gaussian distribution. MBTI, for example, often inherently imply that these are bimodal with an "excluded middle": You're either this or that. But in reality, 68% are within one standard deviation on the transmitters... and then may or may not proceed to push themselves towards behavior that leads to the bimodal expression of personality. Then again, they may not---these are the ones who test all over the place.
Scott 2 wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:22 am
My instinct is to flee groups as well. Making this concept feel especially foreign. But is the wiring fixed? Or am I avoiding new and stressful paths?

I lean towards the latter. I can be more of what I'm not. Seeking balance offers the rewards of low hanging fruit.
The wiring is fixed in the sense that the hardware is fixed. But you can run different software on it. To stretch the wiring analogy a bit. Extroverts have less sensitivity to dopamine than introverts, so there's more "resistance" in their wires and they therefore require a higher voltage to drive the same current. Conversely, the wires in an introvert are wide-open and so if subjective to the same sensory input, their wires are more likely to "burn out" if subjected to the same voltage as the extroverts. This means that it's harder for an introvert to engage in the same level of "outgoing activities" and still feel alright. Yet both can learn to be outgoing. It just feels less rewarding to be so for introverts.

For example, a career mathematician (strongest Ti preference) may compare the feeling when finding a proof for a theorem right right up there with the physical act of sex (Se, their weakest function). It is pretty hard for most humans to even begin to imagine finding that joy (or beauty) in experiencing a complicated logical construct that is comparable or better than sex, but at least people can try based on analogy.

There are two strategies. One is to play to your wiring and be the best you, you can be. The other is to play against your wiring to be the most externally well-rounded you can be; alternatively optimize yourself for your career or tribal demands. Your wiring basically determines what the ROI of your internal well-being is on exercising the cognitive functions. And how much you've exercised those functions determines your ROI in real life according to how those functions are valued societally(*). This means there are two aspects to this. For example, I (and I gather Sclass as well) have concluded that even if extroverted feeling is useful to engage with the world, it's simply not worth it to us compared to "investing" the effort in other cognitive functions like introverted thinking or intuition. (I have actually tried a few times in my life by now, but I always end up regretting it. I think it's a bit like if you're one of those unlucky people for whom cilantro tastes like soap, while everybody else constantly goes on about what a culinary experience this spice adds ... and you so you try it again ... and it still tastes like soap to you.)

(*) For example, being gregarious and "fun" is not nearly as valued in Finland as it is in the US.

I think the best way to use this knowledge is to invert the problem (always invert!) and ask. Ask if your former career or living situation somehow demand(ed) that you overexercise wiring that you really lacked the hardware for. For example, the introvert growing up in a noisy "fun-loving" family or the people-oriented person who somehow got into software and learned how to code because it looked like a good career at the time. In that case, freedom-to will make it possible to explore who (what) you actually are. (For example, I suspect some of the INTJs on this forum only test that way because they got into STEM where this kind of behavior is encouraged. Basically, this implies that their software is not optimized for their hardware and that they will likely be happier installing a different OS. In Plotkin language, they have some subpersonalities like "the scientist", "the taskmaster", and "the strategist" installed courtesy of their education and career history, that aren't part of their natural makeup. Thus when they take the test, it's those subpersonalities answering and not themselves.)

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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by IlliniDave »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 6:02 pm

...It warrants consideration in lifestyle design. Especially for a retiree. Leaving work might remove one's only source of collective effervescence...
Interesting concept, and probably something to it.

From the perspective of a strong introvert/occasional loner, sometimes it manifests in ways that are not obvious. I feel it every time I see a vehicle on the road with a kayak or canoe on top. Or exchange waves with someone else on the water. Or a brief greeting on a hiking trail somewhere. I don't know all the technicalities of the formal concept, but identifying kindred spirits, even when the interaction is fleeting, does tend to provide an upwelling of belonging. So for those of us who tend to avoid crowds, and don't frequently/deliberately seek out group socialization, well, we're not lost causes.

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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by OutOfTheBlue »

The first thing that comes to mind when I read this term is the experience of participating in a spontaneous extended event unfolding "on the street", be it BLM, Occupy, gillets jaunes in France, or the 2008 revolt in Greece.

I've seen people transformed by the latter, with the effects still felt years later. In such a collective effervescence, felt-time becomes very dense. The shared experience, suspended normality where things become again possible and the reclaiming of "lives", silenced voices, public space etc. or the banding in solidarity under a common cause can be strong formative experiences in people who were not necessarily "active" before.

This is not what I'd expect to find in a workspace. It'd have to be in a setting allowing for more spontaneity and expression.

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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by mountainFrugal »

jacob wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:27 am
(For example, I suspect some of the INTJs on this forum only test that way because they got into STEM where this kind of behavior is encouraged. Basically, this implies that their software is not optimized for their hardware and that they will likely be happier installing a different OS. In Plotkin language, they have some subpersonalities like "the scientist", "the taskmaster", and "the strategist" installed courtesy of their education and career history, that aren't part of their natural makeup. Thus when they take the test, it's those subpersonalities answering and not themselves.)
This tracks with my experience. My community college prof subpersonality is bitter at the world because he never took any risks in his career and always decided the safe route. I "come alive" much more frequently as an ISFP (adventurer/artist) and when I am working in small groups with other creatives or scientific projects that utilize these skills. As an example, designing and building custom equipment during grad school to answer a long standing controversy in the literature that I suspected was caused by over-reliance on results from commercially available equipment that was not sensitive enough. My results demonstrated clear differences between various treatment groups within the error rate of these commercial machines. Or using creative data visualizations and data animations to show change over time that would have been missed by examining static images. etc.

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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by guitarplayer »

jacob wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:27 am
I agree that this kind of exploration both deepens and broadens perspectives. [...]
On the other hand, going against your own reward system is possibly a hellish experience depending on how strongly you go against it.
If we adopt the MBTI framework, I've done if for extended periods of time and it was not always backed up with a fully conscious decision to go that way. I think the two are correlated in that the process of deepening and broadening one's perspective is generally not conductive to hedonic happiness - eudaimonic yes.
jacob wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:27 am
I think the best way to use this knowledge is to invert the problem (always invert!) and ask.
This is mainly why I now came to post here just now. ERE1 as originally laid out seems to me to have INTJ-like environment audience as target and this is fair enough given it's undercover purpose of educating people to stop burning stuff like there is no tomorrow.

Again inverting the inverted, the sort of INTJ narrative as given in ERE can be a very beneficial, probably therapeutic at times, call to people who are INTJ-like wired but are in work-life contexts which are not INTJ-like. The by-product of ERE1 can be to show the ropes to INTJ-like people in non-INTJ-like environments. It's not like INTJ-like people are particularly outgoing and in particular with their ways of thinking and doing things - because they don't feel the need I suppose. Tricky bit might be that this audience is not aligned with the target audience of the book for example if granted that a big part of its purpose was to put brakes on some reckless pointless burning of stuff.

So I see a pretty nice avenue to morph, definancialize and / or expand ERE for other audiences and I acknowledge as well that this is the effort of ERE2 in some part. I maintain that often things are nothing new under the sun and this is another iteration of similar process that's been happening over and over, but still worthwhile.

Sorry that was a detour. Just a note re OP that Emile Durkheim (1858-1917) is not a contemporary scholar and more one of the founding fathers of the field of Sociology. He was contemporary of Freud, Jung or Einstein and the ideas from back then were I think high risk high reward ones. Or in other words hit and miss, potentially unjustified generalizations, sometimes a pile of nonsense and sometimes brilliant.

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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by frihet »

Sclass wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 7:11 pm
This is powerful stuff. I rank it in there with drugs and sex.

A side of my family was clergy. They literally lived off their flock. I picked up some of their craft as a child. Group singing, holding hands and chanting repetitively together, fireside prayers at night. All tribal stuff. Pushes our primitive buttons. It can be powerful medicine if you need it.
[quote
Some claim to need this and label themselves psychic vampires....

Book The Psychic Vampire Codex
https://www.sacred-texts.com/goth/vc/vc12.htm

“When we are the center of attention of a whole group, we may feed upon the emotions of those around us as they are directed toward us. Those involved in the group are unlikely to notice the loss of energy, and oftentimes feeding in this way only increases their focus upon you.”

This is an activity many Potentials engage in, though they do not often consciously understand what it is they do. This is one of the main reasons many Potentials are drawn toward the stage. Many become actors, storytellers, musicians or other performers so that they may achieve the kind of focused attention they crave.”

“In general, energy coupled with some strong emotion is more fulfilling than simple energy alone. One of the most intense emotions we can feed upon is fear, but the negative repercussions associated with inspiring this emotion make it inadvisable to pursue. The next most intense emotion is passion or ecstasy, and this can be very fulfilling for both you and your partner. Any emotion that is transformative in its power and depth pleasantly satisfies our needs.

We may also feed upon energy gathered for religious purposes. This will sustain us in a time of need when no other sources are available, though often it is meager fare.

When people gather to worship, they generate a strong force of energy but few, if any of them, ever know how to properly direct it. Thus it curls up like smoke directionlessly through their place of worship or clings around those items which served as the foci for the group's attentions.”

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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by Henry »

I think the problem with Durkheim is he fails to account for the inevitable scapegoat. A community does not arise and prosper through the embrace of itself, it arises through the agreement of who/what is its common enemy.

I prefer Rene Girard on the topic and how he attributes it to mimetic thinking - we are creatures that are designed to imitate those around us. And there is always a common enemy.

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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by jennypenny »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 6:02 pm
It warrants consideration in lifestyle design. Especially for a retiree. Leaving work might remove one's only source of collective effervescence.
We noticed a drop in similar experiences after our kids launched. And now that DH works from home, we generally have no reason to regularly leave our house. We also feel less a part of the community, local and at large. Not ideal.

Maybe this is obvious to the extroverts. But it feels like a revelation. Stadium events make so much more sense. Of course watching baseball can make a grown man cry. Collective effervescence is hard wired.
Ha, baseball is our attempt to address the dearth. The Phillies offered a weekday SRO season pass for $530 this year, and we decided it was a good way to add back some collective fun. Choosing SRO tickets also means it's a night of walking around (instead of sitting) while watching the game (adds 6k-8k steps per game). We're aiming for at least 1 game per week and the season is 6 months long. So far we're getting out of it what we hoped.

I imagine the same can be found with anything in the arts if sports isn't your thing. Theaters often offer seasonal passes, especially local and college theaters. Volunteering at a theater might get you free access (and a little activity). We thought $1K for 6 months of entertainment for the two of us was an acceptable deal--affordable yet expensive enough to guarantee we would follow through. And we actually like baseball. :P

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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Sports doesn't do it for me, unless I have money riding, which is a bit different chemical stew. Just about anything in the arts will do it for me, even very amateur performances. Choral music is especially engaging.

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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by Henry »

Although it is probably reductionist, I think there is some strand of truth to the claim: Mary Eberstadt directly links birth control to the rise in political polarity. As families have shrunken, people need to find an identity in a collective somewhere else. She doesn't look at the "what" in the recent rise of student protesting but the "why." She attributes it to needing to feel a part of a group that was once found in larger family networks. The more lonely people are, the less they care about the reason they are getting together with other people.

Scott 2
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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by Scott 2 »

jennypenny wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 7:44 am
Ha, baseball is our attempt to address the dearth.
Sportsball!

Work took me to a number of games, often in very enviable circumstances. I was an ungrateful twit. But at the time, I didn't understand how to bring it all together.

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Re: Collective Effervescence

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Henry:

I think there’s some truth to that theory. For instance, the poor kids I currently teach are poor AND lonely, whereas poor kids of previous eras( or in the recent immigrant groups I previously taught) at least had hordes of little buddies to play stickball with barefoot on vacant lot.

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