V02 Max Challenge

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IlliniDave
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by IlliniDave »

Scott 2 wrote:
Mon May 22, 2023 8:30 am
...I wonder if the hideout gives opportunity to accumulate those easy minutes. Could be an interesting experiment - watch heart rate and see what sort of load you can get. Maybe your standard hiking and paddling is a little too easy, but you can get in zone with some focused effort?

Is there biking in that area? Could be another fun option, now that you're showing up so fit already.
I've been primarily using HIIT to build VO2 max since I read Dave Asprey's latest book. I'm taking his claims at face value, which may be a mistake--I haven't tried to independently corroborate them aside from attempting to put them into practice and seeing what happens.

Because of where I started and have improved to, it shouldn't be too hard in principle to make some gains over 4 months, although I don't know how well they'll translate to improved 2K row times on the Concept2, which has been my metric.

My intent going in is mainly just to continue my current regimen with paddling the kayak substituting for the concept2. The walking/hiking facet will naturally ramp up in intensity simply due to the terrain. The harder part will be effectively using the yak. My comfortable "aerobic" paddling speed is about half what my little electric motor will do, meaning paddling costs me fishing time. I'll try to be more disciplined about that than I was last year. Another angle is that there's a good number of days when I don't fish out of the yak at all due to the wind being high enough to make fishing out of that small a boat impractical, but there's no reason I can't get out and paddle around most of those days, and fighting the wind requires a lot more energy output. Of course I'll have the bands too, but those are more for strength and mobility. And one thing I've sort of neglected is body weight exercises which I'll likely start at some point over the summer in HIIT-style context.

Biking is an option, at least I see people riding them along some of the roads. I don't encounter them on the trails very often. The close by USFS network would require one to carry the bike frequently (and they my not even be allowed on those specific trails) but the 36-mile round trip along the state highway to town would be a pretty robust workout. That's worth future consideration, but at this point I don't own a bike so for this summer it's not an option on the table.

The elephant in the room is simply running. Unfortunately, it's something I truly hate. Ironically, I competed in track in high school. I was competitive in any event of 400m (actually, back then it was 440 yds) or shorter, but anything 800m and up--forget about it. Nevertheless, at some point I'll probably suck it up and add some short running intervals to the hiking/walking--something like walk for 5 min, "sprint" for 10 seconds, walk for 5 min, etc. The reason sprint is in quotes is the last time I was timed in a 100m sprint, about 12 years ago, my best was around 14-15 seconds--definitely lost most of my quick twitch over the years.

I guess the theme to what I'm saying is the opportunities are certainly there, what's probably in question is the self-discipline aspect of it. To a large extent the motivation to improve my physical capacity, looking past the overall health implications, is specifically to maximize my enjoyment of the season at the hideout by having the capacity to be active as much as possible. But at the same time I don't want to turn it into an extended boot camp. When goals conflict enjoying myself will probably win out. My vision is that the other 8 months of the year can be boot camp, and the 4 mos at the hideout the reward.

I've been resisting the urge to get a Garmin watch or oura ring, in part because that would in turn increase the pressure on me to abandon my old flip phone and enter the 21st century. :lol:

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

In my experience, those ideas are well worth exploring.

This Summer, I'm finding outdoor training doesn't feel like exercise. While tracking data, I am mostly playing. Getting out there as the sun rises feels special, like a peak human experience. The exercise high amplifies it.

Sorting details last Summer wasn't my favorite, but the payoff is undeniable. I'm having a great time.


The GPS enabled watch feels like playing a video game, with my body as the controller. I get a little map of where I went - along with heart rate, distance, speed, elevation, cadence, etc. It's super fun.

For what it's worth, I believe a Garmin can be synced with an internet connected Windows PC. Insurance wellness programs often offer a 20% discount on the devices too. So you might have frugal tracker options available.

I wouldn't wish a smart phone on anyone happy without. The easy Internet access is insidious.

jacob
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by jacob »

Just came across a simple (simplistic) VO2max estimator that I never heard about before. Maybe this is common knowledge?

VO2max (estimate) = 15*(maxHR/restHR), where maxHR ~ 220-age (unless you know it from a tracker), and resting HR can be counted out during rest.

Obviously, there are a bunch of parameters in there that vary by fitness level and experience but not as much as the HR numbers.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

@frommi mentioned a similar formula up thread. In my n of 1, the estimate is about 1/3 higher than the 2000m row or Garmin watch gives.

IlliniDave
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by IlliniDave »

I like that formula, it puts me up to near 40 without even using a true resting heart rate, just a typical one I'd get if I was sitting in a chair for 5 minutes and not having exercised in the last couple hours, mid-forties if I use a heart rate on the low side of what I was measuring ~30 minutes after getting out of bed in the morning. :D

IlliniDave
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by IlliniDave »

Scott 2 wrote:
Tue May 23, 2023 9:17 am

...This Summer, I'm finding outdoor training doesn't feel like exercise. While tracking data, I am mostly playing. Getting out there as the sun rises feels special, like a peak human experience. The exercise high amplifies it...
+1 to the morning thoughts. I can't remember the last time I slept past sunrise. Up at the hideout it's quite intense. Gliding out on the water, the lake like glass, shrouded in mist and twilight, listening to the loons celebrate the coming day--it's simply glorious. Doubly so that stretch of weeks starting in mid-June when the jumbo-sized smallmouth are feeding on the surface.

As you probably ascertained from conversations elsewhere, I'm enough of a data nerd that making a game out of real-time numbers is easily something I could see myself doing. And if that's what it takes for me to bring the effort to the next level, might be worth forgoing my smart phone self-ban.

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C40
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by C40 »

jacob wrote:
Tue May 23, 2023 9:23 am
Just came across a simple (simplistic) VO2max estimator that I never heard about before. Maybe this is common knowledge?

VO2max (estimate) = 15*(maxHR/restHR), where maxHR ~ 220-age (unless you know it from a tracker), and resting HR can be counted out during rest.

Obviously, there are a bunch of parameters in there that vary by fitness level and experience but not as much as the HR numbers.
That formula is not going to be reliable or accurate.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

I felt like trying yesterday. Posted a 5k run PR of 28:21. My last training PR was 7 weeks ago, a 28:42 - the week before hernia surgery.

Image

I spent most of the winter doing low intensity cardio. I wondered if the adaptations would be durable. It seems so.

My 5k race PR was set 9 months ago - a 29:50. So at the right event, I have gains to harvest.


This run is notable for other reasons:

1. I tagged a max heart rate of 172 on foot, as high as I've seen
2. My effort was steady, as evidenced by the near linear trend in heart rate. I chose the pace well.
3. Despite wearing barefoot shoes, a day later, I have only mild soreness in my feet and calves. I am neither hurt nor injured.

The Garmin continues estimating my v02 max at 46. Biking has pushed out rowing, so it might be awhile before a 2000m row attempt.

mathiverse
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mathiverse »

IlliniDave wrote:
Tue May 23, 2023 5:47 am
I've been primarily using HIIT to build VO2 max since I read Dave Asprey's latest book. I'm taking his claims at face value, which may be a mistake--I haven't tried to independently corroborate them aside from attempting to put them into practice and seeing what happens.
I think Scott 2 was suggesting something more along the lines of high volume, low intensity in order to increase VO2 max. I thought this article about it was informative: https://simplifaster.com/articles/how-t ... s-vo2-max/.

That article says that a training plan of HIIT works relatively quickly to increase VO2 max, but then goes on to suggest that most people hit a plateau with HIIT that may be overcome with a greater emphasis on high volume, low intensity work over the course of a few months and even more so over years. It's not suggesting a mutually exclusive approach, just one with more emphasis on high volume (which is the challenge, as Scott 2 was saying, related to time commitment).

IlliniDave
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by IlliniDave »

Scott 2 wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 5:24 pm
...
3. Despite wearing barefoot shoes, a day later, I have only mild soreness in my feet and calves. I am neither hurt nor injured...
Barefoot shoes are a godsend. I bought a couple pair of Xeros for my outdoor adventures this summer. I'd started walking/hiking this winter in a pair of regular shod foot hiking shoes this winter and had issues with blisters and sort of achy, restless feet. The Xeros are great. Problem solved. I tried the Xeros because I finally wore out my old New Balance Minimus shoes, and the only replacements I could find seemed to have too much padding for my liking. What kind do you wear, if I might ask? I'm sort of a shoe nerd.

IlliniDave
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by IlliniDave »

mathiverse wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 11:44 am
I think Scott 2 was suggesting something more along the lines of high volume, low intensity in order to increase VO2 max. I thought this article about it was informative: https://simplifaster.com/articles/how-t ... s-vo2-max/.

That article says that a training plan of HIIT works relatively quickly to increase VO2 max, but then goes on to suggest that most people hit a plateau with HIIT that may be overcome with a greater emphasis on high volume, low intensity work over the course of a few months and even more so over years. It's not suggesting a mutually exclusive approach, just one with more emphasis on high volume (which is the challenge, as Scott 2 was saying, related to time commitment).
Thanks for the link, mathiverse. I did grok what Scott 2 was saying. And for a while early in 23 I was doing what I'd call moderate volume low intensity rowing, but I've gotten away from that in favor of more HIIT the last few months. That's just a "for now" thing. I'm sure if I really want to maximize along the V02 max axis, you're absolutely right, it'll take years of traditional cardio training to get to the higher tiers.

But ... I'm hoping to do a fair amount of paddling this summer. My average "commute" to a fishing spot is about 1.5 mi but 2-4 mi isn't uncommon. My low intensity pace (i.e., I could paddle like this all day) last year was 2 mph. So if my resolve doesn't flag, I should be logging ~2-6 hr per week paddling. Not really super high volume, but it's something. I'm also an old dude who even as a youthful athlete struggled with endurance, and even my hiking/walking probably counts as low intensity cardio due to the hills/ridges/terrain.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

IlliniDave wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 1:12 pm
What kind do you wear, if I might ask? I'm sort of a shoe nerd.
I'm using the Xero Prio. I must have returned a dozen pairs of shoes, trying to find something that fit me well. I have 3 pairs of the Prio. As well as the Xero z-trail sandal, hiking boots and winter boots. Building into them took a year, but my feet feel much better.

IlliniDave
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by IlliniDave »

Scott 2 wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 4:09 pm
I'm using the Xero Prio. I must have returned a dozen pairs of shoes, trying to find something that fit me well. I have 3 pairs of the Prio. As well as the Xero z-trail sandal, hiking boots and winter boots. Building into them took a year, but my feet feel much better.
Thanks. Another Xero guy! I've got a pair of TerraFlex II for walkabouts and clear/dry trails, and a pair of Xcursion Fusion hiking boots for wetter/rougher conditions. When I first started wearing the New Balance Minimus (bought them for crossfit c. 2012) it took some months to adapt to them--any amount of running and I'd get DOMS in all the little muscles in my feet and ankles, and sore tendons. But after wearing them only sparingly for a decade then switching to the Xeros and using them daily there wasn't much adjustment.

IlliniDave
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by IlliniDave »

mathiverse wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 11:44 am
...I thought this article about it was informative: https://simplifaster.com/articles/how-t ... s-vo2-max/.
Got a chance to give this a good read. It's actually a little discouraging. I'm apparently one of those people whose genetics work against me. Actually, that part is a bit of a relief, knowing my historical poor endurance is "not my fault" but rather due more to an unlucky draw in the genetic lottery.

It is discouraging that once I finish the transition from sadly out-of-shape to being in decent shape, there's not going to be much room for additional improvement even with consistent effort over time. I'm assuming the numbers cited are for people who start as well-trained high level athletes because of the way a VO2 max in the 50s was mentioned as being a little pedestrian, and is the average starting point for people he works with. That's in or beyond the "excellent/superior" threshold in all the VO2 max scales I've seen even for the age 20-25 cohort. I suppose being relatively out of shape is why I've seen fairly large gains primarily using HIIT up to this point. I'm getting to the age group where, genetics aside, getting/staying in the 40s will be a significant accomplishment.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

I wouldn't be upset to level out in the 40's. I might not be athletically competitive, but I can do all the things. The engine feels capable.

I think knowing of genetic limits, motivates lifestyle integration. Doing the work for near linear gains - of course that's fun. I like winning too. I don't know if I enjoy a hobby, until I plateau.

I'm using the momentum from winning to integrate. The hope is when my enthusiasm dies down, accumulated identity and social ties keep me going.

There's no way I'm riding the elliptical 4 hours a week, in perpetuity. But I might ride a bike. Maybe I'll take up rowing a scull. Lots of fun to be had.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

Inijni is throwing in a free pair of socks with every order today:

https://www.injinji.com/

I picked up a pair and the free pair for $17. That's as cheap as I've seen their socks. They are better than any cheap option I've found on Amazon.


I managed to run a 10k in training yesterday, without any significant blistering. Partially due to my Injini toe socks. But also because I've been using lotion on my feet and filing down callouses. Pretty happy with progress there. This was intended to be Zone 2 work, so I only hit a 12:15 mile pace - 1:17. There's substantial room to log a higher score, if I go all out.

I also signed up for a 5k at the end of September. Not sure if I'll do something sooner, but I'm hoping to break 27 minutes. I'm going to re-prioritize lifting in 2 weeks, which means eating more. That's a big wild card around 5k times. It's possible with enough extra calories, the added work only helps.

My cardio has been running 2x per week, plus biking 2-3x per week. I'm getting more confident on the bike, braking less for turns, bringing my average speed up to 12.5 mph. My standard loop is ~10 miles on a gravel trail. I'm starting to think about doubling it and slowing down. I know this is slow for serious bikers, but rumbling along on my mountain bike, it feels aggressive.

Now that I'm faster, pedestrians are making me nervous. It feels like some of them are trying to collide. Walking left on blind corners. Running 4 wide, then freezing when a bike approaches. Weaving left and right with headphones in. Stopping mid trail for pictures, forcing other pedestrians into oncoming traffic. It's a big incentive to get out there early and avoid weekends entirely.

mooretrees
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mooretrees »

Bells are your best friend with pedestrians. They’ll still get confused about where the bell noise is coming from but at least they’re given a chance to know you’re coming.

theanimal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by theanimal »

You can also say things loudly like "[Rider passing]On your left/right" This gives them direction and most people move right away. On single track or tighter trails with elevation difference you can say things like "Rider up" or "rider below." Those have worked well for me, I'm sure there are others. That plus a bell and you should drastically reduce any issues/confusion.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

I found a product called Timber Bell that is kind of like a cow bell for the bike. I might try that. I'm most concerned about the pedestrians I don't see or anticipate. The guys blasting a Bluetooth speaker make sense now.

I'm slowing way down when I pass. The last thing I need is to take out Grandma on her morning stroll.

macg
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by macg »

mooretrees wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:49 pm
Bells are your best friend with pedestrians. They’ll still get confused about where the bell noise is coming from but at least they’re given a chance to know you’re coming.
theanimal wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:05 pm
You can also say things loudly like "[Rider passing]On your left/right" This gives them direction and most people move right away. On single track or tighter trails with elevation difference you can say things like "Rider up" or "rider below." Those have worked well for me, I'm sure there are others. That plus a bell and you should drastically reduce any issues/confusion.
+1 to both of these. These combined methods are what I do.

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