For coders, are these 100% online, accredited programs any good?

[daylen]

Sounds like she succeeded in the spiritual realm. Though, I lean towards agreement that more education is not the answer for fox.

[zbigi]

One extra reason for getting a Msc not listed already - being interested in specific "researchy" area of CS (e.g. comp. vision). You can get a degree focusing on that area, and get the knowledge spoon-fed instead of having to self-study. Also, these researchy areas are quite competetive, even for industry jobs - so getting a degree will definitely be a plus in them (will signal interest and willingness to commit to this specific area).

[ducknald_don]

All else being equal I'd hire the guy with a CS or related degree over the one without.

Right now there are a lot of people that rode into a programming career on the back of a huge expansion of demand and little supply. There is no guarantee that will continue.

I think you will also find that the more interesting jobs are more demanding in terms of qualifications.

Not sure how that fits into ERE though.

[7Wannabe5]

Maybe what THF is looking for with the CS degree has more to do with cultural capital? One of the reasons why I am getting an MS in IT/Data Analytics rather than just applying for positions with my archaic B.S. in mathematics is that I am a 58 year old female who never plays video games. Because it is actually a very generalist M.S. program, it is also helpful in determining my specific areas of interest/talent within the field while simultaneously "forcing" me to study topics such as Network Communications which makes me want to put daggers in my eyes because the textbook/Cisco Certification Manual is so full of boring, arbitrary, detail, but also amuses me because I sometimes like doing things that are totally out of character for me. Becoming Cisco Certified seems kind of like buying/wearing a bowling shirt with my name embroidered on it.

[jacob]

Maybe what THF is looking for with the CS degree has more to do with cultural capital?

I think THF is really just looking for someone to confirm a decision he's already made and then come back in a couple of years asking why nobody ever told him that a CS degree was a waste of time. Okay, maybe that was a bit cynical and snarky, but yes... the "cultural perspective" may well explain it. Most of the answers here come from experienced coders or hiring managers and they almost unequivocally say that the only thing that matters is a demonstrated ability to code. Whereas THF has been bouncing around and talked his way through HR and into junior positions in a number of different fields only to struggle technically or decide it wasn't a good fit. Now, what HR, which is populated by people with humanities degrees, looks at may just be whether an applicant checks the proper degree box w/o having any idea of what all that computer-stuff is about. Going further out, the CEO might not even know that much---they just want to know if the candidate went to a "good school", that is, whether it has the right brand name.

So I think this is what the situation is. THF having historically navigated the world by passing courses and getting degrees and mostly seeing the HR-contact of hiring and passing the technical interview/exam and not, say, the professional way of hiring former colleagues with proven skills, still values "the degree". Whereas people who are a few years into doing actual work basically discount the degree because a) they're not using the stuff they learned in school; b) they now know that just because someone has a degree doesn't mean they're actually able to produce results, they may just be good at taking classes and passing exams.

If coding is in the future, then a CS would be a waste of time. However, if coding is a temporary stint like the previous geology or the finance jobs, ... then tagging a few more degrees on might not be the worst. At least it increases optionality. Of course, at some point, hiring managers might start wondering about the numerous different degrees and certifications and lack of tenure.

[liberty]

A CS-degree is not waste of time (well, too some degree it is), but a huge waste of money (if you live in a non social democratic country). You won't get anything there that you can't get for free or cheap online. If you want to learn front-end, I recommend checking out Scrimba. They have video tutorials where you can step into the code you see on the videos, and continue working on the code on your own. The cost is similar to a gym membership (adjusted based on consumer prices in each country). They offer even some free stuff so you can try it.

[7Wannabe5]

I think there are some of us for whom being a full-time technician is the problem. For instance, if my choice was coding 8 hours per day vs. coding 4 hours/day and having meetings with non-tech people 4 hours/day, I would rather do the second. Actually, writing executive summaries on technical topics inclusive of lots of bullet points and interesting diagrams is probably my best fit in the world of tech. Like if there was a job where I could spend my morning talking to the young technicians about what they are doing, and then my afternoon explaining what they are doing in less technical terms to a grouchy old CEO over a nice lunch for which he is paying. Unfortunately, I don't know the title for that job.

[jacob]

@7wb5 - Sales representative, tech support, technical writer, UI designer, ...

[mathiverse]

@7wb5: Also product manager, technical program manager, sales engineering, developer evangelist

Also if you ever get to more senior level positions, you'll probably start spending more time in meetings (with other senior eng, tech leads, devs, PM, TPMs, managers, etc) than programming at many companies. You'll also get to mentor less experienced devs once you're more senior.

[TopHatFox]

@jacob, plot twist tho, I just change whatever job titles I’ve had to be related to the newest profession, and all the bullets to emphasize skills or software valued in the new field. As far as interviewers are concerned, I’ve wanted to do their field since I was 15, and I have 6 yrs of FT xp. I do think I’ll stick to the intersection of coding & geology, so far this is the best job I’ve ever had. MS just solidifies my posing-ability in the new (and hopefully permanent) field during the hiring manager portion, in addition to the actual knowledge learned from TTH + job xp (which is used to pass the technical interview & keep the job).

It’s extremely common to bounce around from field to field in 20’s, what you thought a field was in college is not what it actually is, not to mention no one takes you seriously until you’re at least in your late 20’s, early 30’s in the white collar world (maybe different in trades). For example, you went through physics, then lifestyle blogger & author, then quant finance in the span of a decade. Similarly, MMM went from computer programmer, to lifestyle blogger, to carpenter, and his ex-wife went from computer programmer to soap maker.

If anything, I'd blame HR and higher-ed for causing so many of us to jump between fields as we figure out which one is good & bad for us. It was very hard if not impossible to get an entry level job in the different fields I've applied to over the years (thousands of them) without at least a bachelor's, and the master's did help to actually get the job. They're just completely useless on the job. Maybe you could shadow someone to test a field out, but almost all people don't do that, and a Youtube video on the field doesn't cut it.

[steelerfan]

When my son interviewed for his job, the scrutiny on his degrees was about a sentence or two. “What classes did you take?” “Oh that’s interesting”. Then the interview went on to knowledge based questions, “how would you approach this?” questions and what specific projects did you work on. He is now at the point where he is interviewing applicants and running newbies and interns. There are people that just get it and there are people despite all the degrees in the world, show no initiative or talent and have to have their hand held. One recent person he complained about would need help every 5 minutes or so.

He has said that basically nothing he did at CU Boulder was directly applicable to what he is doing now. Not saying the experience was not worth it as he learned how to learn, study, and take notes. I marvel at his math notes in college notebooks he left behind. The degree got his foot in the door but that it was about it. Honestly, the liberal arts soft skills stuff he took in his BA actually was more important. I am assuming @THF already has that in spades as he is well spoken. I think my son getting invited to work poker parties when he is the youngest person by 10-20 years speaks more to the soft skill side. This is a very big company so it is impressive to me. Interpersonal skills matter.

I was always skeptical about college. When my kids were growing up, I openly questioned in front of them the need for college unless it was specifically needed for entry into a field. I never felt a CS degree, while nice to have was strictly necessary as you can learn it on your own if you love it. I knew people from work that went to a trade school or learned on their own. I encouraged exploring the military. My son has 2 HS friends that are in the army. One is in IT and one is in intelligence and just graduated from the military language school. Both have TS clearance and will be set whether they make it a military career or reenter civilian life. I met a guy that went the same military route and he owned his own IT consulting company in his twenties. Obviously, you need to test something first to qualify. That guy told me a story about being helicoptered at night to a submarine to do something during the Gulf war. Interesting factoid (but not relevant here).

My son wanted to work with computers as far back as elementary school. Some people know what they want to do. I made sure to encourage that as honestly that was not me. Even with my limited technical skills, we built computers. I ran linux systems really before he was born. Both of my kids went to the tech school that was offered for half the school day. It springboarded both of them into their careers regardless of college. My younger son earned his associate degree in video production and has been working as a video editor for a local news station for the last year. He loves his work even though it does not pay that well. The kid that I was talking about in my last post that never went to college was a tech school classmate and lifelong friend to both of them. He saw no need to attend college as he was already getting paid for IT work when he was 16-17. He said it would be a waste of time and money. My younger son also had a classmate in tech school that owns a video production company and also never went to college. He was accepted to a lot of places but decided not to go. He was a straight A student.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting a degree of any kind including CS. But too many people use a getting an extra degree as a crutch or an excuse to delay growing up. Education is too expensive not to have a plan. My son met plenty of people in Boulder that went there to smoke dope on someone else dime, I assume! Born too early. A couple of years later and they could have gotten a degree focusing on the production side! Personally, if I interviewed somebody with a history of bouncing around from one occupation to a completely different one, it would raise major red flags. There would have to be a compelling reason.

Education is expensive. It is nice to have degrees but maybe in every case not strictly necessary. I enjoyed college but went on a sports scholarship. I remember going drinking back home with an old track rival during spring break. I was proud of where I was running wise. Until we went back to his house. He worked as a homebuilder and was really successful. Lucky sperm club for him as he had a connection, but I realized early college was not always needed LOL.

[steelerfan]

I realize my response (maybe all my responses) went off the rails. Apologies to all, in particular, @THF. I just think you are in the door based on what you already brought to the table. Build on that,. You don't have to know it day one (unless you said you had said skills LOL) To me there is no need to buy more formal training that you can obtain yourself. Good luck again in whatever you decide. Make it happen!

[TopHatFox]

@steelerfan, haha, thankfully they know I know nothing about their company & product so far, just that I have 6 years' ft background knowledge. Tbh that may as well be the case in most jobs. If you had 6 years' xp doing CSS, HTML, and JS, you may as well be totally new if you now need to use SQL, Python, and React.Js.

[mathiverse]

I would hope someone with six years of experience with JS would not be starting at square one with SQL, React, and Python... Once you're a solid programmer, learning new languages or frameworks should in no way imply being "totally new."

Learning new syntax due to a new language and new design patterns due to new frameworks is not the same as being new to programming or being an entry level software engineer getting their first experience working at a job.

The difference between the ramp up period of someone with six years of experience programming at a job and an entry level programmer in their first programming job should be significant. Most of the time even if the entry level person knows the language better coming in than the 6 yoe person, the 6 yoe person will be significantly better at adding value to the team and the company in the same time period of ramp up.

I'm confident you'll see this happen regularly in the coming years as you experience being a programmer/SWE. There are exceptions since some people are good beyond their years of experience or shitty compared to their years of experience, but generally that's the pattern.

[bostonimproper]

@7w5 As mathiverse mentioned, once you are senior you spend a lot (most?) of your time on design docs, mentoring, coordinating with other teams, figuring out requirements and the like. Most tech leads I know complain that they never have time to code anymore.

[TopHatFox]

@boston&mathiverse, is it possible to just stay a SWE or senior SWE, while working on projects on your own outside of work? I don't think I'd like being the tech lead or PM for another company; I doubt the pay differential is worth the additional stress/commitment.

[CS]

Actually, writing executive summaries on technical topics inclusive of lots of bullet points and interesting diagrams is probably my best fit in the world of tech. Like if there was a job where I could spend my morning talking to the young technicians about what they are doing, and then my afternoon explaining what they are doing in less technical terms to a grouchy old CEO over a nice lunch for which he is paying. Unfortunately, I don't know the title for that job.

Most of that job is called Analyst, at least it used to be. You go and get the requirements from the clients, and write them up for the coders, and better know the shortcomings of the current tech or your coders will explode from impossible promises to said clients. The lunch with CEO this all comes down to your personal charm skills…

[white belt]

@jacob, plot twist tho, I just change whatever job titles I’ve had to be related to the newest profession, and all the bullets to emphasize skills or software valued in the new field. As far as interviewers are concerned, I’ve wanted to do their field since I was 15, and I have 6 yrs of FT xp. I do think I’ll stick to the intersection of coding & geology, so far this is the best job I’ve ever had. MS just solidifies my posing-ability in the new (and hopefully permanent) field during the hiring manager portion, in addition to the actual knowledge learned from TTH + job xp (which is used to pass the technical interview & keep the job).

Do companies not follow up with references or previous employers? Seems like it would be a red flag if what a previous boss says about your job is entirely different than what you say.

[7Wannabe5]

Most of that job is called Analyst, at least it used to be. You go and get the requirements from the clients, and write them up for the coders

Yes, I already took a course on Systems Analysis and Design, and it is more in alignment with what I like and might be good at. I also liked my class on Modern Operating Systems, because interesting algorithms. I will be getting into my data analysis core classes very soon, so we'll see how those go. I also picked up a textbook on Operations Research to study on my own.

Otherwise, I can always use my charm to simply find some retired executive-type to shack up with, so that I can skate by on my early withdrawal social security and a few hours tutoring the disadvantaged tots.

[Viktor K]

@7wannabe5 project management, product management, and SCRUM master are other roles to look at too. All involve working with technical and non-technical staff

@white belt I don't think it is very common, especially for currently employed applicants. Last thing an applicant wants is someone calling their current company when they haven't even given them notice yet or mentioned they're looking. And "no permission to contact my previous or current employer" is a common checkbox on background checks / hiring paperwork.

I can't speak for higher positions (senior+) but I wouldn't be surprised if they have more thorough background checks and reference checks. My last two companies didn't even have references, nor did any I've applied for at the junior to mid level.

@THF yes, it is common. I am in the situation now where my management wants me to grow vertically or horizontally and I just want to ride the paycheck as long as possible. I tried option A of being authentic and telling them I hate work and would sacrifice nothing for the company, and got chastised. Now I just nod and say I'm looking into it. Ironically, I was recently told by a higher up something like, "many engineers are happy writing code and just keep doing that" but I didn't speak up that that's what I want, given my most recent experience.

For projects outside of work, many of the most passionate coders I've worked with do. For me, after writing code, I find that my brain quits after a certain # of hours or fails, YMMV.

I've noticed my career/income trajectory has slowed. The higher I go, the more it seems to take to get recognition. If it interests you, project management, SCRUM master, product management certificates CAN make you more attractive as a SWE candidate. Having soft skills, and getting certs that back those up, can really set you apart from the average coder, even if your title stays SWE.