How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Anything to do with the traditional world of get a degree, get a job as well as its alternatives
Humanofearth
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by Humanofearth »

jacob wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:47 am
Socially engineer people's behavior starting at a young age through "education".
I like this side of Jacob. Feels like a bright light illuminated many thoughts behind my resistance to sending my kids into the system.

To op, wfh changed my life. I left the country, renounced that citizenship, live in a tax haven with multiple income types now. I travelled the world, I realized so much. My preferences changed from dirty forest hippy to healthy city lover but wfh has been a constant. I only wish I started sooner.

chenda
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by chenda »

Lemur wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:44 pm
I'm very high on the introvert scale...I don't need to see people. I always say here this may be insensitive, but the pandemic was the best thing that ever happened to my lifestyle design.
Same with me 100%. I remind myself that many women found ww2 to be a very liberating experience as it gave them some autonomy and independence.

OutOfTheBlue
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by OutOfTheBlue »

Now that the "education" bomb has been dropped, the analogy with the question that pops up in discussions when I mention homeschooling/unschooling is coming full circle:

How is the kid going to socialize?
What's going to replace all the work office battlefield camaraderie and bonding?

Well, use your imagination!

Oh, and in a real pinch, you can tap on resources that "ability-to" can only dream on.

---
Henri Michaux wrote:N’apprends qu’avec réserve. Toute une vie ne suffit pas pour désapprendre, ce que naïf, soumis, tu t’es laissé mettre dans la tête sans songer aux conséquences.

Learn with caution. A whole life is not enough to unlearn what you naively, submissively, allowed to be put into your head without thinking of the consequences.

2Birds1Stone
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

Location independence is very high on the list for us.

We specifically chose this recent career path due to the flexibility and 95% remote nature of the work.

The fact that we are basically FI means we have the mental freedom to fully take advantage of this location independence.

Today I worked from the beach, from 9 AM till noon. Now I'm sitting by the pool wrapping my day up.

You can't beat that. 0 commute, 0 costs associated with work, even get reimbursed for stuff like phone and internet.

SavingWithBabies
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by SavingWithBabies »

I'm not willing to go back to an office at this point. It's actually a struggle to work from home because we have 3 young boys who are also being homeschooled here and we live in a relatively compact 3 bedroom apartment. I end up shifting my sleep schedule later so I can work into the evening which is not ideal.

If I were earlier on the path to FI or COVID was not a thing, I'd probably have a different take. I'd actually join a coworking place or rent a small office space just to get out of the house and away from the noise. But I feel like the end is in reach within a few years, or at least a big change in our lifestyle (moving onto a boat), and I can hold out until then.

I started working remote pre-COVID and it was a struggle to find a position. Now there seems to be much more options even with some companies trying to pull employees back into the office. So I think if I truly only need 2-3 more years, I'm never going back to the office again.

theanimal
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by theanimal »

I think the danger in being absolute is insulating one from experiencing any non self created friction and creating a bubble for oneself that provides insulation from any undesired hardships. I see "ability to" as less an opportunity to have camaraderie and bonding than being able to deal with other people/events/places who have very different views, behaviors, interests than you do. I don't think most office environments are a good thing, but I do see them as a good way of embracing and dealing with friction that many people work to completely avoid once they start working from home. Of course you can try to replicate that in some way on your own. IMO, very few people do.

OutOfTheBlue
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by OutOfTheBlue »

theanimal wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:19 am
I think the danger in being absolute is insulating one from experiencing any non self created friction and creating a bubble for oneself that provides insulation from any undesired hardships. I see "ability to" as less an opportunity to have camaraderie and bonding than being able to deal with other people/events/places who have very different views, behaviors, interests than you do. I don't think most office environments are a good thing, but I do see them as a good way of embracing and dealing with friction that many people work to completely avoid once they start working from home. Of course you can try to replicate that in some way on your own. IMO, very few people do.
I like this and the shift it brings. Very thoughtful. Thank you, theanimal.

If working from home and remote work is yielded as yet another means of (or excuse for) shielding ourselves from the world, an insulation compounded by the ubiquitous mediation/interference of screens that "disconnect" us from our sensuous, embodied presence, direct experience and human and more-than-human relationships, then it may defeat its "purpose" (of course remote work is mostly done through screens, so the irony is not lost on me).

At the same time, extracting yourself from the constraints of a mostly sterile business/office environment where "human resources" are allowed only limited freedom of movement to interact with each other and which, like school, often encourages reproducing dominant scripts and narratives at odds with personal fulfillment and societal enrichment... Extracting yourself from that and reclaiming morr time, space, freedom of movement and living in your own terms etc. is not the worse you can do.

The reclaimed time can be used for meaningful connections, first and foremost with loved ones, and can also, give a better idea of what life can be out of the rat race.

Outside of the "seamless" colorful and flashing experience of screens, there is indeed friction, there is awkwardness, the risk of exposure and afronts, the danger of closeness.

Fully accepting some risk and danger is crucial.

Introversion does not necessarily mean one can't be open to the world at large and to Otherness. Quite the contrary. How can you really bear the company of others if you can't bear your own?

There is richness in introspection, but also in wordly and earthly connection, in expanded circles of consciousness, compassion and association.

At any rate, I am personally discovering the introvertion/extraversion dichotomy to be an exceedingly false one if one gets too hang up on it.

If a lense makes my/the world smaller, it isn't such a good lense.

Currently, I am traveling while working just a few hours a week and generally sharing living quarters with strangers (hostels and such, public space, etc.)

While I sometimes crave for and do take time alone and especially close to "nature", there is a joy in becoming available to encounters and spontaneous occurrences or even just in being "in the midst". In meeting others, other cultures, experiencing friction, hectic landscapes/soundscapes and allovertheplaceness. In feeling lost and at home in strangely familiar land.

That shield is porous. Like my skin, within the confines of which I already... contain multitudes.

SavingWithBabies
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by SavingWithBabies »

@theanimal the problem I have with that though is that most of the experiences at corporations have a layer of separation that dulls the experience compared to those outside of a corporate business. By that I mean I don't think you really see the true person when they are at work at least in most corporate office jobs. People will have personas and ways of behaving that are solely for the office. So I don't think that those genuine experiences are common (at least at corporate office spaces). The lack of friction is a good and interesting point though.

The other aspect, which might be unique to software development, is that the work requires a lot of intense focus with quiet space however the trend is towards large open offices and quite often a top-down driven idea of how collaboration works. So to a lot of programmers these days, the office is basically a mild form of torture inflected by management for cost-saving and/or delusional business practices.

That said, I did edit out of my reply that perhaps I could see myself working in an office at some point if it was my office and my company. I think when you have some control over how things are done it's a different experience as you can actually change things. That or a small company (ie 10 or less people) in which more genuine interactions seem to be more common.

Western Red Cedar
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by Western Red Cedar »

Thanks for the responses everyone! It was an interesting discussion and not a huge surprise to see that a forum that leans towards introverts prefers to work at home. It has been about 72 hours since the last interview and I haven't heard back yet, so that likely means I'm not moving on to the next round. I had basically decided that I wasn't planning on accepting it though when I made the original post.

The experience provided an interesting thought experiment though. It caused me to put a numerical value on the flexibility and autonomy I've built in my current job over the last eight years. Considering where I'm at on the path to FI, I realized that it would need to be a lot more money to get me back into the office. I'm not even sure if that would do it for me though, because with high salaries come high expectations and high pressure. Right now I'm just saving and investing, and money has become a bit irrelevant to my daily life. Money certainly provides an element of security in my life, but a bigger number in the bank isn't going to make much of a difference in how I feel at this point.

Western Red Cedar
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by Western Red Cedar »

mountainFrugal wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:54 pm
Best case: 3 days * 4 weeks ~ 12 days of ~1 hour plus of your time JUST commuting. 12 hours a month * 12 months = 144 hours. 2 years of that and you could be apprentice level at something you are just starting out in. Or what if you spent that time each month getting better at a skill that could net $10-12K a year? Or you spent that time seriously marketing a consulting side hustle that would surely net more than 10-12K? My guess is that spending that time to broaden your skill set is going to net way more over your lifetime. :).
I can see the logic in looking at financial alternatives with the time, but honestly my calculations were more along the lines of "how much sleep will I lose if I'm up at 6am instead of 7am every day" or what is an extra long walk by the river worth on my lunch break? :D

Monetizing hobbies and skills is a bit of a weak point in my ERE skillset, but I find it takes a lot of joy out of those pursuits. That might change with more time on my hands once I walk away from FTE.
theanimal wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:47 pm
If money is a solved problem, I think that is the wrong lens to look when evaluating if it is more advantageous or not. At least for me, money isn't going to motivate anywhere close to as much as interesting problems or opportunities might
This is a great point. I initially applied because it was a really interesting opportunity to combine my professional skills with some of my personal passions. Money wasn't really much of a consideration, but was a small motivator. Upon further reflection after applying and interviewing, I realized that I probably don't have the level of energy necessary for my own expectations and work ethic to tackle a major career pivot right now. After 2 years of grad school I've basically worked for the last eleven years straight. I've had multiple 3-4 week vacations over that time period, but I'm ready for a longer break at this point.

Hristo Botev wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:43 am
On a different note, within my own industry I worry about how we will train the next generation of lawyers in an environment where WFH is more common, even if that WFH is part of a hybrid model (like my own firm uses for some of the other lawyers) where time is split b/w home and the office. I recognize that there is something a bit parasitic about my own scenario currently: I was trained in a judge's chambers and in the BigLaw office situation where literally everyone was sitting at their desks on the same floor or separated by an internal stairwell 40+ hours/week. Everyone was accessible all the time, in person. Currently, sometimes days go by where I'm trying to get someone on the phone or vice versa, as everyone is buried in their own project silos. But I don't know how to recreate that training scenario for younger lawyers I work with in a virtual setting, and practically speaking that means I just tend to not delegate as much. And the problem with that is while that works OK for me from a business perspective, it limits growth because professional services practices are only scalable through delegation of work.
This is certainly a dark side of WFH in many fields. I thrived under a couple different professional mentors in an office environment. I'm sure a significant variable was the physical access and the spontaneous conversations. I'm at the point of my career where I can function at a high level on my own, and connect with other colleagues when I need to virtually. I also realize new hires and younger staff are probably missing out on some of the mentoring that naturally occurs in an office environment. Some managers are better about nurturing their staff and providing time for connection virtually, but not all IME. I personally make an effort to connect with our new staff so I can serve as a resource and provide some context on strategic approaches to their job and how the larger organization functions.

SavingWithBabies wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:53 am
The other aspect, which might be unique to software development, is that the work requires a lot of intense focus with quiet space however the trend is towards large open offices and quite often a top-down driven idea of how collaboration works. So to a lot of programmers these days, the office is basically a mild form of torture inflected by management for cost-saving and/or delusional business practices.
I think this is a feature of most knowledge work. Prior to the pandemic I decided to avoid moving into management so I could WFH 50%. A major factor in that decision was that the open office environment was really distracting. I like my coworkers and we'd have many fun conversations, both work-related and personal, but it was getting really hard to focus and keep my projects moving with all of the distractions. I was at the point of my career where I was working on more complicated projects and needed multiple 60-120 minute blocks of time to focus, read, analyze and write.

On the other hand, I do think there is some value in getting out of the house and interacting with other people on a regular, and ideally a daily basis. DW is a heavy introvert, but she finds going to work at a local school is really good for her in terms of providing forced socialization and expanding her social network. She would probably prefer staying home to work on art, but I can see how the structure and schedule provide a lot of value and support her mental and physical health.

Perhaps a major distinction here is that when you are actually going in to a job to work with other people, collaborate, and do things with your hands there is some value added? As a knowledge worker, getting up early to go to an office to write on a computer or answer emails doesn't seem particularly appealing. My last "collaboration day" in the office involved me having to share an office with a manager who was on video calls almost the entire day. Pretty distracting and pointless, so I haven't really been back for those. A couple of my extroverted colleagues really miss the old environment though, and are still going in.

jacob
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by jacob »

SavingWithBabies wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:53 am
The other aspect, which might be unique to software development, is that the work requires a lot of intense focus with quiet space however the trend is towards large open offices and quite often a top-down driven idea of how collaboration works. So to a lot of programmers these days, the office is basically a mild form of torture inflected by management for cost-saving and/or delusional business practices.
I quit my quant job on the same day that the boss announced that our group was leaving the bullpen and moving into a/the big open-office space comprising 200+ non-quant traders. I didn't want to work at a "train station". It's nice to be FI.

IlliniDave
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by IlliniDave »

My opinion doesn't count since I've been out of the workforce for 20 months now. But when covid came I was required to work mainly from home for a time. At first I hated it, then for a couple months it got tolerable, then I grew to hate it again. The reason was pretty simple--my home was always my sanctuary away from work (I never, as in never ever, brought work home in the pre-wfh days) and that intrusion on my personal bubble was disruptive to my contentedness and well-being. I say that as an incorrigible introvert, and it actually surprised me that that's how I reacted to it. But as a thought experiment, if I had enjoyed/preferred working from home, it would probably take a lot more than ~$12K to lure me back into an office setting--although the nature of field work in the types of locations described might alter that opinion.

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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by luxagraf »

For me it very much depends on the work being done. At the moment I am a writer, I would not gain anything by being around other writers, that's just not how writing works (for me at least) so I would never go into an office. Same with programming when I was doing that. But obviously its hard to WFH if your work is running a restaurant or building things or whatever (all of which I have done and some of which I would consider doing again). So even though I would never do my current job anywhere but home and I've been working from home for 10 years now, I still don't think I've actually become adverse to the idea of going to work.

Smashter
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by Smashter »

It's currently worth a lot to me. I wouldn’t want to see my current boss every day, and I love being able to get my work done quickly and then do other things.

That said, I have had jobs in the past where I happily went into the office and would have been sad if I didn’t get the chance to. Those honeymoon periods didn’t usually last long, though. Maybe a year, tops. As others have pointed out, I would not be opposed to working in close quarters with others if we were doing something fun and interesting that I cared about. 



I do feel lucky that I met my wife because we worked at the same company and saw each other every day. How different things would have been if everyone was working remote in 2013!

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grundomatic
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by grundomatic »

I had a bad experience with WFH as an extroverted teacher. I had to put in more hours. I had to be present online for the regular school schedule, plus preparing for online took extra work. Add to that it was not effective at all, and I assign WFH a negative value at my current job. I won’t touch my online tutoring gig anymore that pays approximately double my regular job’s hourly rate. So a 100% increase isn’t enough. I’m about 4 years from FI, so I might endure one year at a 300% premium to just be done with it. Things might be different if I had skills that suited work from home, but as it is, my marketable skills are all “soft”. Essentially I’m not good at (or maybe it’s not interested in) much that pays beyond talking and connecting with people in order to get them to do things that they might not otherwise do.

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conwy
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by conwy »

For me, it's worth a lot, based on two factors:

1. Fitness/wellbeing
2. Career direction

Point 1 - Fitness/wellbeing

I want to live a healthy lifestyle, and that includes fresh air, regular exercise, time for walking and meditation and being able to cook healthy breakfasts, lunches and dinners.

All of the above are easier working remote. Without a commute I get more exercise and more time for walking and meditation. Being at home allows me to make the meals I want, without being forced or tempted to buy unhealthy fast food on a regular basis.

I'm sooo sorry that some local governments and corporations will lose a bit of revenue from having to sell empty office blocks at a loss. That's just too bad. A growing number of citizens and employees don't want to be stressed out, unhealthy, office-bound workers, and they're voting with their feet.

This is the 21st century, and society is fast changing. It's not Office Space times anymore. Sometimes societal change favours state power and capital, sometimes (like, right now) it favours the workers. ;)

Point 2 - Career direction

The work I do is largely cerebral. Sure, some tech celebrities like Elon Musk have tried to hype the image of the rugged tech hero who sleeps in the office every night. That might hold true in automobile manufacturing, healthcare or science, where the work itself requires physical presence.

For my line of work, software development, the fundamental natural of the work is mental. You won't get fired for wearing poorly coordinated colours, in fact you probably won't even get fired for using foul language or saying something offensive (unfortunately). What you most certainly will get fired for is not solving the problems you were hired to solve.

As long as I'm in the field of software development, I want to be the best software developer I can be. The most straightforward way to improve is to actually get better at solving problems with software. This seems to come down to some combination of experience, additional learning via courses, etc. and some networking by attending conferences, none of which benefit from in-office presence.

Some people will occasionally say that networking or career building requires being physically in the office. As someone on a team which is globally geographically distributed and who all work remote, the chances of career-building by attending one of our offices seems... remote.

arbrk
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Re: How Much is Remote Work Worth to You?

Post by arbrk »

For me, it depends on the commute and whether it's hybrid or strict M-F 9-5.

My work recently mandated RTO 3 days a week. I bought a house 15 min drive or 30 min biking from the office and they aren't enforcing times - it's just three days a week. So I can go in after rush hour and leave before rush hour. I just need to badge in three times a week, probably on the days other people are also going in but which days of the week will probably have some flexibility i.e. if my team goes in T-Thu, but I have a doctor's apt one Weds, I could probably come in M-T-Th or come in Wednesday after the doctor's apt. So since the commute is small and it's still flexible, remote is worth nothing to me.

In fact, I started at this job about 3 weeks after WFH in 2020 and I think I am worse at it than I was when I left grad school. I tried to do Georgia Tech's online master's of computer science, but it wasn't for me, so I switched back to the local, private university where I had done my prerequisites to be in person, at high monetary cost. But it was worth it because I learned more and did better, even though Georgia Tech has a great an extremely robust online program. I squeezed every cent out of grad school, never missed lectures, made a lot of friends, and went to office hours ALL THE TIME.

I'm just not good at figuring things out myself! I'll bang my head against the wall for DAYS in my room alone but with the help of someone else, I can learn the skill in an hour or less and then have taken such good notes that I can help others.

My social life is better with WFH, because I'm not dead tired from interacting with people all day and commuting. But I think 3 days a week, short commute, flexible hours will be a HUGE improvement for me. It still leaves days when I'm not tired after work, and I don't even have to be in the office all day long and run down my social battery. I will be better at learning and contribute more to the team through teaching. All WFH is not good for me. And I currently live alone. It's not as bad now that I have a serious boyfriend, but when I was single, if I went out and saw a friend for 3 hrs, or went to Pilates class, that would be all my social interaction for the day, and I didn't do it every day. It was very lonely.

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