Mission creep seems to be the outcome of many systems but I'm curious about why that frequently seems to occur. Maybe systems have or are given some kind of momentum that doesn't easily translate to maintenance/stasis?
In terms of joining a union, my understanding is there is or was some added value of being part of a ready-made social structure, so I would also strongly factor that into my decision. It can be difficult to find people who have your back, so getting/keeping them might be worth engaging with some approaches one wouldnt necessarily support in their ideal world.
Trade unions
Re: Trade unions
Hm, a union does not necessarily have one’s back and may just give the illusion of security. Fear-driven membership can create a dysfunctional triangle with the employer.ZAFCorrection wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:15 pmIt can be difficult to find people who have your back, so getting/keeping them might be worth engaging with some approaches one wouldnt necessarily support in their ideal world.
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Hristo Botev
- Posts: 1742
- Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:42 am
Re: Trade unions
You're probably right.guitarplayer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:24 am@Hristo Botev would here say 'define your terms' and what is meant by 'ineffective'.
FWIW, I like the idea of unions, but I've never really had any involvement with them in practice. My dad did, from management side; and he was perhaps not surprisingly very anti-union, though he appreciated that at times it could make negotiations more streamlined when you were just dealing with one union rep (imagine smoke-filled back rooms and large plates of pasta with chianti), whose interests may not have been completely in line with those of the laborers he represented.
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OutOfTheBlue
- Posts: 297
- Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:59 am
Re: Trade unions
There is something to be said about collective power, but I would point out there is a big difference between rank-and-file unions that take a bottom-up approach, are created from below and are organized horizontally and unions that operate as bureaucratic/reformist bodies where the leadership/management/representatives' interests and mediating actions are no longer aligned with those of the base they represent.
If you want to control a movement, it is easier to deal with a few "leaders".
But it is getting already political, so I'll stop here…
If you want to control a movement, it is easier to deal with a few "leaders".
But it is getting already political, so I'll stop here…
Re: Trade unions
As a union member I would receive a monthly periodical (high gloss magazine) on the status and wonderfulness of the union which was nothing but pure propaganda. I would always think that I would rather have lower union dues than receive this drivel.
At a local level, our newly elected union officers flush with all of this money coming in decided that we needed a proper union building to conduct all of this new-found business so they set up a building fund. When I questioned why we needed to spend a million dollars plus for the officers to have their own offices (my suggestion was to buy them each a portable laptop) they segued into that it would also benefit the membership because we could host events that would bring everybody together, such as award ceremonies, balls, and parties. Fair enough, but it would have still been much cheaper to rent a venue four or five times a year than to take on the purchase of a building with all of its monthly costs and maintenance. At a micro level, the union was a perfect example of how government works with their funding.
And more times than not, my money would in part be funding the campaign of a political candidate whom I would never vote for or support. As a local chapter of a much larger union, we paid dues to the big guys, who took some of our money and directly contributed to the *Democrat candidate on a national level. The magazine made sure to tell us why they were making such great choices with our money but fundamentally large unions are political machines.
I don't mind paying for services rendered, and absolutely the clout behind the organization and the legal representation helped tremendously with contract negotiations, and we all benefited. Send me the bill. But the union will continue in perpetuity regardless of need, and maybe by just existing some problems will be thwarted, but I have got to wonder if in the long run they are simply money grabs.
* not getting political here. And nothing fundamentally against Dems, but we should have a choice.
At a local level, our newly elected union officers flush with all of this money coming in decided that we needed a proper union building to conduct all of this new-found business so they set up a building fund. When I questioned why we needed to spend a million dollars plus for the officers to have their own offices (my suggestion was to buy them each a portable laptop) they segued into that it would also benefit the membership because we could host events that would bring everybody together, such as award ceremonies, balls, and parties. Fair enough, but it would have still been much cheaper to rent a venue four or five times a year than to take on the purchase of a building with all of its monthly costs and maintenance. At a micro level, the union was a perfect example of how government works with their funding.
And more times than not, my money would in part be funding the campaign of a political candidate whom I would never vote for or support. As a local chapter of a much larger union, we paid dues to the big guys, who took some of our money and directly contributed to the *Democrat candidate on a national level. The magazine made sure to tell us why they were making such great choices with our money but fundamentally large unions are political machines.
I don't mind paying for services rendered, and absolutely the clout behind the organization and the legal representation helped tremendously with contract negotiations, and we all benefited. Send me the bill. But the union will continue in perpetuity regardless of need, and maybe by just existing some problems will be thwarted, but I have got to wonder if in the long run they are simply money grabs.
* not getting political here. And nothing fundamentally against Dems, but we should have a choice.
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steelerfan
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:33 pm
Re: Trade unions
Interesting discussion. I was never in a union but I was able to see unions in action and in general can see positives as well as negatives associated with them.
I can see why some people don’t like unions. There definitely are excesses and fat cats. (Richard Trumka was born in the same town as my grandfather BTW). People wonder what benefit they are. Companies have promoted this line of thinking and pushed through “right to work” laws. Not surprising. There is a lot of jealousy from non union working stiffs that can be leveraged for a business purpose. But if we are being honest, the mid 20th century US blue collar middle class was created by union organization. I remember clean safe places that normal people could afford and be proud of. Think of the turn of the century world depicted in “the Jungle” by Upton Sinclair (communist). Without negotiating power wages and job security and a 40 hour work week would simply not exist. Medical and PTO would not exist. I recently went back home. With the mines largely closed, what was once a beautiful semi-prosperous middle class area is now a broken down ghost town. A lot of the places I remembered no longer exist.
//Start random fluff disregard if boring:
Growing up in western PA, several relatives on my dad’s side worked in the coal mines. My cousin retired about 10 years ago on a UMW pension. On my mom’s side my godfather was a local superintendent of the mines (non-union management). My grandfather worked 50 years in the mines and eventually as one of the old guys got to work above ground in the lamp house. I have some of those lamps today.
My great grandfather came over from Czechoslovakia alone not speaking the language at age 14 and went into the mines in the 1890s. He basically sent back money to bring the rest of his family to the US. My memory of him was that he was kind of mean and I guess he had to be. Me and my parents lived with him and my grandparents (4 generations in one house). I brought him his shot of whiskey in the afternoon. He would pinch me and threaten to cut my ears off. But I was never afraid as it was obvious he was playing with me.
My grandfather also had a side hustle. He was a bookie and wrote numbers and dabbled in liquor transport. Even the local police chief and the DA were customers in the numbers. He was a master mason and carpenter and built his house with his friends with a loan from some rich family on the hill. My dad had to walk the money to their door each month.
End random fluff//
In my first and last job in state government I was an exempt salaried worker. I served at the pleasure of a state politician. I also paid monthly political contributions to the re-election org that functioned as his war chest. I had no problem doing this because if the other political party won the office, I would lose my job. The hourly people in the office were unionized. My benefits mirrored what they got. I got to ride on the coattails of the great benefits they negotiated. Of course my monthly political contribution could be loosely considered equivalent union dues. As a result, if I stayed there I could have retired early like other government workers. Stupidly, I chose to go into the private sector and head west. My old colleagues are retired with strong pensions and earned a better salary than I did most of my career. No regrets though - at least not too much. At the time, I didn’t pay into Social Security or Medicare! The next year new workers had to pay into Medicare.
My next door neighbor and his girlfriend are cops. Down the street is a fireman. Public safety employees tend to skew conservative although in my experience they are quiet about it in person. Social media tells another story. I have no problem but they often complain about government handouts and the like while quietly partaking on the taxpayer funded government teat. My neighbor has 3 classic cars as well as his government provided daily driver. He and GF could have retired after 30 yrs but they are padding their pensions by working a while longer. The fireman drives a loaded new pickup. We live in an area where houses run between $750K to $1MM+. With 2 cop pensions they will do great. I have no problems regardless as they are great to live next to.
To be honest I agree with a lot of the arguments against unions as we all see abuse and how certain mediocre or sub standard workers can stay employed but at least they are working.There is some slack time but there is in a white collar job as well - on a larger scale. The truth as always is somewhere in between. About 20 years ago during the construction of Denver International Airport, I audited a union contract payroll for an electrical contractor that did a lot of the wiring. It was a generous contract to say the least. In my next life I want to be a tradesman LOL. It would be better than being chopped off at the knees like all of these tech companies - although the tech worker makes much more quid. When AI eliminates our jobs, having a hands on job will be the way to go until the robots arrive.
A final note. My godmother was in an assisted living home. My godfather was non-union management. After he passed away she ran out of money and was forced to return home to live and die alone. I am not sure if her outcome would be better if she was covered by UMW benefits.
I can see why some people don’t like unions. There definitely are excesses and fat cats. (Richard Trumka was born in the same town as my grandfather BTW). People wonder what benefit they are. Companies have promoted this line of thinking and pushed through “right to work” laws. Not surprising. There is a lot of jealousy from non union working stiffs that can be leveraged for a business purpose. But if we are being honest, the mid 20th century US blue collar middle class was created by union organization. I remember clean safe places that normal people could afford and be proud of. Think of the turn of the century world depicted in “the Jungle” by Upton Sinclair (communist). Without negotiating power wages and job security and a 40 hour work week would simply not exist. Medical and PTO would not exist. I recently went back home. With the mines largely closed, what was once a beautiful semi-prosperous middle class area is now a broken down ghost town. A lot of the places I remembered no longer exist.
//Start random fluff disregard if boring:
Growing up in western PA, several relatives on my dad’s side worked in the coal mines. My cousin retired about 10 years ago on a UMW pension. On my mom’s side my godfather was a local superintendent of the mines (non-union management). My grandfather worked 50 years in the mines and eventually as one of the old guys got to work above ground in the lamp house. I have some of those lamps today.
My great grandfather came over from Czechoslovakia alone not speaking the language at age 14 and went into the mines in the 1890s. He basically sent back money to bring the rest of his family to the US. My memory of him was that he was kind of mean and I guess he had to be. Me and my parents lived with him and my grandparents (4 generations in one house). I brought him his shot of whiskey in the afternoon. He would pinch me and threaten to cut my ears off. But I was never afraid as it was obvious he was playing with me.
My grandfather also had a side hustle. He was a bookie and wrote numbers and dabbled in liquor transport. Even the local police chief and the DA were customers in the numbers. He was a master mason and carpenter and built his house with his friends with a loan from some rich family on the hill. My dad had to walk the money to their door each month.
End random fluff//
In my first and last job in state government I was an exempt salaried worker. I served at the pleasure of a state politician. I also paid monthly political contributions to the re-election org that functioned as his war chest. I had no problem doing this because if the other political party won the office, I would lose my job. The hourly people in the office were unionized. My benefits mirrored what they got. I got to ride on the coattails of the great benefits they negotiated. Of course my monthly political contribution could be loosely considered equivalent union dues. As a result, if I stayed there I could have retired early like other government workers. Stupidly, I chose to go into the private sector and head west. My old colleagues are retired with strong pensions and earned a better salary than I did most of my career. No regrets though - at least not too much. At the time, I didn’t pay into Social Security or Medicare! The next year new workers had to pay into Medicare.
My next door neighbor and his girlfriend are cops. Down the street is a fireman. Public safety employees tend to skew conservative although in my experience they are quiet about it in person. Social media tells another story. I have no problem but they often complain about government handouts and the like while quietly partaking on the taxpayer funded government teat. My neighbor has 3 classic cars as well as his government provided daily driver. He and GF could have retired after 30 yrs but they are padding their pensions by working a while longer. The fireman drives a loaded new pickup. We live in an area where houses run between $750K to $1MM+. With 2 cop pensions they will do great. I have no problems regardless as they are great to live next to.
To be honest I agree with a lot of the arguments against unions as we all see abuse and how certain mediocre or sub standard workers can stay employed but at least they are working.There is some slack time but there is in a white collar job as well - on a larger scale. The truth as always is somewhere in between. About 20 years ago during the construction of Denver International Airport, I audited a union contract payroll for an electrical contractor that did a lot of the wiring. It was a generous contract to say the least. In my next life I want to be a tradesman LOL. It would be better than being chopped off at the knees like all of these tech companies - although the tech worker makes much more quid. When AI eliminates our jobs, having a hands on job will be the way to go until the robots arrive.
A final note. My godmother was in an assisted living home. My godfather was non-union management. After he passed away she ran out of money and was forced to return home to live and die alone. I am not sure if her outcome would be better if she was covered by UMW benefits.
Re: Trade unions
Yeah OutofTHeBlue Hernán Cortés would agree lol.If you want to control a movement, it is easier to deal with a few "leaders".