Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15906
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by jacob »

Given the posts in AH's journal, it may be possible to at least point a person in the right direction for the hero's journey once leaving Plato's Cave. In other words, solving the freedom-to problem in a way that generates flow by syncing up the dominant, auxiliary, and tertiary functions of one's personality. This is much more likely to be successful if done in accordance with one's innate temperament than trying to conform to some socially introjected journey.

This also works in terms of finding freedom-to via one's job or career.

Freedom-from is somewhat more complicated because it can be both freedom-from not being able to be "heroric" in the sense above, but it can also be freedom-from the hell of living in one's deepest shadow, which incidentally is often someone else idea of heaven.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:49 am
A flow moment that sticks in my memory is rummaging around the basement of an old library, finding an 1899 book on the topic of electrifying the earliest skyscrapers in NYC, and feeling as one with the happy customer who would want to buy that book from me. Ne-> Ti -> Fe -> all syncing up!
Here's a list. I'll start.
  • ENTJ (TeNiSe): ... Blindspot (Si): ...
  • ENTP (NeTiFe): ... Blindspot (Fi): ...
  • INTJ (NiTeFi): Creating longterm/strategic solutions to difficult/complex problems and seeing them implemented. Blindspot (Fe): Other people's feelings.
  • INTP (TiNeSi): ... Blindspot (Se): ...
  • ENFJ (FeNiSe): ... Blindspot (Si): ...
  • ENFP (NeFiTe): ... Blindspot (Ti): ...
  • INFJ (NiFeTi): ... Blindspot (Te): ...
  • INFP (FiNeSi): ... Blindspot (Se): ...
  • ESTJ (TeSiNe): ... Blindspot (Ni): ...
  • ESTP (SeTiFe): ... Blindspot (Fi): ...
  • ISTJ (SiTeFi): ... Blindspot (Fe): ...
  • ISTP (TiSeNi): ... Blindspot (Ne): ...
  • ESFJ (FeSiNe): ... Blindspot (Ni): ...
  • ESFP (SeFiTe): ... Blindspot (Ti): ...
  • ISFJ (SiFeTi): ... Blindspot (Te): ...
  • ISFP (FiSeNi): ... Blindspot (Ne): ...
PS: For an explanation of the stack functions, see viewtopic.php?t=12360

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15906
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by jacob »

  • ENTJ (TeNiSe): ... Blindspot (Si): ...
  • ENTP (NeTiFe): ... Blindspot (Fi): ...
  • INTJ (NiTeFi): Creating longterm/strategic solutions to difficult/complex problems and seeing them implemented. Blindspot (Fe): Other people's feelings.
  • INTP (TiNeSi): ... Blindspot (Se): ...
  • ENFJ (FeNiSe): ... Blindspot (Si): ...
  • ENFP (NeFiTe): ... Blindspot (Ti): ...
  • INFJ (NiFeTi): ... Blindspot (Te): ...
  • INFP (FiNeSi): ... Blindspot (Se): ...
  • ESTJ (TeSiNe): ... Blindspot (Ni): ...
  • ESTP (SeTiFe): ... Blindspot (Fi): ...
  • ISTJ (SiTeFi): ... Blindspot (Fe): ...
  • ISTP (TiSeNi): ... Blindspot (Ne): ...
  • ESFJ (FeSiNe): ... Blindspot (Ni): ...
  • ESFP (SeFiTe): ... Blindspot (Ti): ...
  • ISFJ (SiFeTi): Enjoying simple hobbies that connects to the past and making things for friends and family. Blindspot (Te): Clutter and lack of organization.
  • ISFP (FiSeNi): ... Blindspot (Ne): ...

User avatar
mountainFrugal
Posts: 1125
Joined: Fri May 07, 2021 2:26 pm

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by mountainFrugal »

I will take a stab at a few others that I have experience inhabiting outside of INTJ (base).
  • ENTJ (TeNiSe): ... Blindspot (Si): ...
  • ENTP (NeTiFe): ... Blindspot (Fi): ...
  • INTJ (NiTeFi): Creating longterm/strategic solutions to difficult/complex problems and seeing them implemented. Blindspot (Fe): Other people's feelings.
  • INTP (TiNeSi): ... Blindspot (Se): ...
  • ENFJ (FeNiSe): ... Blindspot (Si): ...
  • ENFP (NeFiTe): ... Blindspot (Ti): ...
  • INFJ (NiFeTi): Looking to help others through their work and/or deep connections. Takes work very seriously and personally which can be a superpower. Blindspot (Te): Takes work seriously and personally easily leading to burnout with misaligned values, over advocating for others and not themselves, also detrimental perfectionism.
  • INFP (FiNeSi): ... Blindspot (Se): ...
  • ESTJ (TeSiNe): ... Blindspot (Ni): ...
  • ESTP (SeTiFe): ... Blindspot (Fi): ...
  • ISTJ (SiTeFi): ... Blindspot (Fe): ...
  • ISTP (TiSeNi): ... Blindspot (Ne): ...
  • ESFJ (FeSiNe): ... Blindspot (Ni): ...
  • ESFP (SeFiTe): ... Blindspot (Ti): ...
  • ISFJ (SiFeTi): Enjoying simple hobbies that connects to the past and making things for friends and family. Blindspot (Te): Clutter and lack of organization.
  • ISFP (FiSeNi): Seeking adventures by feeling first which makes for good exploration, art creation, and thinking outside the norms of authority. Blindspot (Ne): Nailing down long-term plans because it is too much like authority.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15906
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by jacob »

Oi! This is a lot harder than I thought, especially keeping it short while "syncing" all three. I may have neglected stack functions below, especially the tertiary. I may even be somewhat off.

As a reminder, this is not to force squares into round holes. It's to avoid pegs being forced into square holes. Insofar anyone has found longterm (>2 years) enjoyment in something that went in a completely different direction, I'd love to hear about it. Why 2 years? Because that's how long it usually takes me to realize that I took a wrong turn somewhere.

Anyway, here's a few more ...
  • ENTP (NeTiFe): Making creative compositions for the entertainment of others Blindspot (Fi): Ideological purpose
  • INTP (TiNeSi): Research and exploring and explaining how the world works Blindspot (Se): [Concrete] experience
  • ENFJ (FeNiSe): Being inclusive and forming communities Blindspot (Si): Practical limitations
  • INFP (FiNeSi): Spiritual development and authentic healing Blindspot (Se): Practical details like money, budgets, ...
  • ESTJ (TeSiNe): Dutifully carrying out a plan Blindspot (Ni): Trying new approaches
  • ISTJ (SiTeFi): Hobbies that involve tools, equipment and practicing to get better Blindspot (Fe): A preference for solo-hobbies.
  • ESFJ (FeSiNe): Upholding traditions and organizing people Blindspot (Ni): Explaining why
  • ISFJ (SiFeTi): Enjoying hobbies that connects to the past and making things for friends and family. Blindspot (Te): Clutter and lack of organization.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9369
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Okay, I'll attempt to add ENTP and INTP since I generally test close to the boundary. Caveat being that I'm not sure that the human with a blind spot is best qualified to diagnose blindspot :lol: An example of how a combination of "moral incertitude" combined with "absent-minded to physical surroundings" might manifest is that I have on more than one occasion found myself standing as a pedestrian at a railroad crossing where the bars have come down, but there is no train in sight. Not because "a rule is a rule!", but because it takes me half a minute to rationally calculate whether the rule makes any sense in current context. Whereas, I believe an ESTP type (also with blindspot Fi) would be likely to go right ahead and gleefully gun his motorcycle over the tracks as the gates are coming down.

Since it takes all types to make a functional society, I would note that the Fe blindspot of the INTJ would be beneficial to the group as a whole in any context where taking the rational course of action without regard to the feelings of others is warranted. The blindspot of the ENTP and ESTP would be beneficial to the survival of the species in any context where it makes sense to consider disregarding the rules. For instance, the ENTP/ESTP is least likely to starve to death in situation where survival requires disregarding dietary restrictions.

  • ENTJ (TeNiSe): ... Blindspot (Si): ...
  • ENTP (NeTiFe): ... Blindspot (Fi): Exploring world towards creating more inclusive, accurate, and less arbitrary maps and models to happily share with others. Blindspot (Fi): Moral incertitude or not able to make sense out of what seems like arbitrary rules, leading to paralysis of action.
  • INTJ (NiTeFi): Creating longterm/strategic solutions to difficult/complex problems and seeing them implemented. Blindspot (Fe): Other people's feelings.
  • INTP (TiNeSi): ... Blindspot (Se): Creating maps and models towards exploration with others. Blindspot (Se): Absent-minded to physical surroundings in the present moment.
  • ENFJ (FeNiSe): ... Blindspot (Si): ...
  • ENFP (NeFiTe): ... Blindspot (Ti): ...
  • INFJ (NiFeTi): Looking to help others through their work and/or deep connections. Takes work very seriously and personally which can be a superpower. Blindspot (Te): Takes work seriously and personally easily leading to burnout with misaligned values, over advocating for others and not themselves, also detrimental perfectionism.
  • INFP (FiNeSi): ... Blindspot (Se): ...
  • ESTJ (TeSiNe): ... Blindspot (Ni): ...
  • ESTP (SeTiFe): ... Blindspot (Fi): ...
  • ISTJ (SiTeFi): ... Blindspot (Fe): ...
  • ISTP (TiSeNi): ... Blindspot (Ne): ...
  • ESFJ (FeSiNe): ... Blindspot (Ni): ...
  • ESFP (SeFiTe): ... Blindspot (Ti): ...
  • ISFJ (SiFeTi): Enjoying simple hobbies that connects to the past and making things for friends and family. Blindspot (Te): Clutter and lack of organization.
  • ISFP (FiSeNi): Seeking adventures by feeling first which makes for good exploration, art creation, and thinking outside the norms of authority. Blindspot (Ne): Nailing down long-term plans because it is too much like authority.
NOTE: Cross-posting with Jacob.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15906
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:41 am
Okay, I'll attempt to add ENTP and INTP since I generall test close to the boundary.

[...]

NOTE: Cross-posting with Jacob.
Being xNTP, I think your descriptions blended into each other a bit.

To disentangle them, an ENTP might be spending their time cutting a dinosaur out of plywood in order to set it on fire while using their drone camera to capture video for a tiktok movie. Think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Brown from Back to The Future.

Whereas an INTP might be spending all night following wiki links down the rabbit hole, alternatively pulling down books at the library or bookstore, in order to understand some subject that they'll be happy to explain to anyone who cares to listen.

I'm INTj so I identify a bit with the INTP although I'm not sure whether that's by math/phys training or innate. When I first tested around ago 14 or so, I got iNTJ. Apparently, I used to enjoy connecting with people more. In terms of my particular blend, I do research rabbit holes and come up with theories, but unlike an INTP I'm not happy if those theories have little/no practical application.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9369
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote:Being xNTP, I think your descriptions blended into each other a bit.
For sure. My youngest sister is ENTP towards ENTJ, so I grok the difference. She won an award at a major film festival for a documentary of something like "burning a dinosaur she constructed", but more in the realm of the mad-cultural/artistic rather than the mad-scientific. Also, I used to share a house with a male friend who was classic mad-scientist-genius ENTP. He even had a Tesla coil he put out for Halloween. The way ENTPs interact with each other is: Drink too much coffee. Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Abrupt return to parallel play/work. When I was brains-storming with my xNxJ daughter about how I could try to be more "tough" in a manner that would be natural for me, we decided that more consciously manifesting my tendency towards "abrupt switch" might be the way to go.
Whereas an INTP might be spending all night following wiki links down the rabbit hole, alternatively pulling down books at the library or bookstore, in order to understand some subject that they'll be happy to explain to anyone who cares to listen.
Yes, I do this, but then eventually my tank fills up with research/abstraction, and I feel compelled to go out into the real world/lab and enact some kind of scheme/experiment/project based on my research in social collusion with other types or vice-versa.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15906
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by jacob »

Complete but open for discussion. Frankly, this sounds a bit like a mishmash between typological career advice and avocational activities.

Take-away so far is that freedom-to is not a scalar but a vector. There's no one-size-fits all. Also, since 10/10 preferences on all four dimensions are very rare, consider adjacent types as well for starters. Very developed individuals may want to venture into their shadows but consider that going too soon may be counterproductive.

Also, would this format be more useful with examples instead of abstract preferences? For example, ENTJs liking "leading others to effective change". What does that even mean?! Well, ENTJ's likely enjoy being on an advisory board of some organization; mentoring people; having a column to dispense advice;...

(Actually I think it would. I'll think about it. FWIW, I think this project has a lot of value. Consider how many FIREs tried the generic approach (going to "other continent", watching the 100 best movies ever, ...) and went back to work after a couple of years because they didn't find the freedom they were looking for.)
  • ENTJ (TeNiSe): Leading others to effective change Blindspot (Si): Respecting traditions
  • ENTP (NeTiFe): Making creative compositions for the entertainment of others Blindspot (Fi): Overall purpose
  • INTJ (NiTeFi): Creating long-term solutions to complex problems and seeing them implemented. Blindspot (Fe): Other people's feelings.
  • INTP (TiNeSi): Researching and explaining how the world works Blindspot (Se): Lack of experiential confirmation.
  • ENFJ (FeNiSe): Being inclusive and forming communities Blindspot (Si): Infrastructure limitations
  • ENFP (NeFiTe): Exploring via conversational opportunities. Blindspot (Ti): Lacking an overall framework.
  • INFJ (NiFeTi): Helping others develop through deep connections. Blindspot (Te): Confronting logical arguments.
  • INFP (FiNeSi): Spiritual development and authentic healing Blindspot (Se): Real world details like money, budgets, ...
  • ESTJ (TeSiNe): Leading others to carry out a plan and get results Blindspot (Ni): Taking a chance on new approaches
  • ESTP (SeTiFe): Fun adventures that require flexible solutions and improvisation Blindspot (Fi): Doing the right thing
  • ISTJ (SiTeFi): An external structure with clear expectations and goals Blindspot (Fe): People breaking the rules
  • ISTP (TiSeNi): Hobbies that involve mastering tools to build something Blindspot (Ne): Thinking out of the box
  • ESFJ (FeSiNe): Upholding traditions and organizing people Blindspot (Ni): Explaining why
  • ESFP (SeFiTe): Carpe Diem and YOLOing Blindspot (Ti): Facts
  • ISFJ (SiFeTi): Enjoying hobbies that connects to the past and making things for friends and family. Blindspot (Te): Unorganized clutter.
  • ISFP (FiSeNi): Challenging authority by exploring through feeling and sensation. Blindspot (Ne): Worrying about reality catching up

Western Red Cedar
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:15 pm

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by Western Red Cedar »

jacob wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:14 am
This also works in terms of finding freedom-to via one's job or career.
The description for my personality type (INTJ) could be directly lifted from my current position description form. Maybe that means I'll be returning to traditional work at some point ;)

@axelheyst - IME, there is a lot of value in solving complex problems within an existing organization. On the other hand, there are also downside to working within that framework. Building something from scratch comes with a wide variety of other problems.

Something to consider as you explore and clarify the freedom-to vision.

AxelHeyst
Posts: 2117
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by AxelHeyst »

...
Last edited by AxelHeyst on Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Frita
Posts: 942
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:43 pm

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by Frita »

This is two cents as an ENTP with a well-developed F, mellowing to an eNTp. I view attention-seeking/entertaining others as more of a factor of immaturity than of personality.

Superpower: Able to discern patterns and connections in the external world (people, places, systems, events, things), envision what could be, and develop multiple new trajectories.

Kryptonite: monotony, isolation, being controlled, going along to get along

Blind spots: recognizing the possible value of routine, solitude, hierarchical systems, and compromise

zbigi
Posts: 978
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:04 pm

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by zbigi »

Frita wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:10 pm
I view attention-seeking/entertaining others as more of a factor of immaturity than of personality.
Historically, being able to entertain others (well) was highly valued. If you had a good singing voice, could tell good stories, were a good dancer, your value in the society was higher that it otherwise would be. That's of course because the options for entertainment back then were limited and socializing was one of the main ones available. So, a fun companion was much appreciated.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9369
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Frita:

I agree that "being entertaining" is not the conscious purpose of the ENTP. However, it is the case that both P.T. Barnum and Mark Twain are ENTPs. I think ENTPs just sometimes end up being entertaining when they're unconsciously pulling on their Ne curious-enthusiastic-juvenile-masculine-adventurer-child-like energy. IOW, childish energy totally running the show(bad)/ childlike energy contributing to the show(good).

For instance, I am aware that there are some humans who find my writing humorous, but if I actually sat down and tried to write something with the intention of being humorous, I would be thoroughly blocked. What happens is that I sit down and try to write something serious, even a paper for one of my graduate courses, and the bubbles pop up because I can't take myself seriously and/or I start feeling bored with what I am writing. Kind of like I start naturally correcting for when I "hear" myself sounding like the monotonous "blaah-blaah-blaah" voice of the grown-ups in a Peanuts cartoon. For better or worse, when I participate in internet environments such as this forum, I also tend towards "seeing" everybody else as being kind of like one of the kid characters in a Peanuts cartoon.

Frita
Posts: 942
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:43 pm

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by Frita »

@zbigi and @5W7

My point was that attention seeking/entertaining are independent of personality. And with more thought, attention seeking and ability to entertain are different, though related. Being able to amuse others is a way to garner attention yet some entertainers are introverted, eschewing the limelight. One can also seek attention less than pro-socially and provide zero entertainment value. Wanting versus needing versus unintended by-product attention seeking further complicates the issue.

guitarplayer
Posts: 1300
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:43 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by guitarplayer »

I just want to mention that the solution to the problem would also prove handy to solve Harari's problem of the unemployables and the meat and potatoes problem of re-engaging people in long term unemployment (the standard one, not FIRE / ERE).

AnalyticalEngine
Posts: 949
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:57 am

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

If we take into account the problem of people who are unemployable or in long term unemployment, this problem seems to generalize to "how do you reinvent yourself for a new context?" People who are chronically unemployed suffer from the fact they had forged identities in a world that will no longer have them and then being at a loss what to with themselves once the traditional sources of meaning have been stripped away. It's a tricky problem because solving it often requires going outside of one's existing social or cultural context, which is hard for anyone to do, but even harder when the social world/values are causing the source of one's problem in the first place. (Ie, ageism, classism, etc in the case of long term unemployment) This is also why unemployment in a post-scarcity context is still a problem because it leaves most people disconnected from the world around them, even if their needs are taken care of.

Moving past this mindset is hard because you almost have to reenage the world like a child would and unlearn fundamentally held beliefs about yourself or the world, which have changed since you first carved the identity.

The question is, therefore, how much of your temperament is fixed and how much of it was caused by the environment? Should one seek to disprove or overcome fundamental assumptions about oneself? Or is it better to accept who you believe you are now because you've already found suitably alignment between yourself and your environment that's going to cost too much energy to change? Are all people even capable of this change?

guitarplayer
Posts: 1300
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:43 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by guitarplayer »

Hey, good points @AE. The mindset you describe in the first paragraph and a point made in the second could serve as a pretty decent summary of ERE the book I think.

From the psychology point of view (the last time I saw), temperament is taken as a rather fixed disposition to do with reacting to the environment. As in, the phenotype (observable traits) that comes out of the way the genotype put together the body with its neurology, endocrynology etc. I know there is epigenetics but do not know much about it, anyway we couldn't really impact the environment of the womb we were in or our mother's environment. But temperament is not all and we have reason to work with temperament to build personality. A very basic venn diagram you could see in psychology textbooks is that of cognitive, emotive and motivational.

Also on the final point, to me, change is life and will happen in one way or another. Knowing oneself, or "seek to disprove or overcome fundamental assumptions about oneself" is a responsible thing to do. Otherwise is like walking backwards towards the unknown.

On the thread - a good thread this is!

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15906
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by jacob »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:26 pm
The question is, therefore, how much of your temperament is fixed and how much of it was caused by the environment?
If you "believe" in MBTI, temperament is a bit more complicated than a linear combination of nature and nature. Personhood starts by developing the dominant function first and it gets developed by using it. As it gets more developed, it gets used more, and it quickly becomes the preference. (You get good at what you practice.) The dominant stage starts once personhood starts, that is, usually around age 3, post-toddler, or so when humans enter the "autobiographical" stage and begin to be able to tell stories about themselves (as a person) and construct their own idea-space and (self-)reference back to those constructs.

This dominant function will be either introverted or extraverted. Likely set by brain chemistry. For example, mine is Ni.

In order to connect the brain with the world, it will gain auxiliary support from another function that will extraverted or introverted---the opposite of the dominant function. Mine is Te. This is support function develops during school age. (The primary function keeps developing but it might not be as "interesting anymore"(*).)

Brain first, then world ("think before you talk") will become introverts. World first, then brain ("just do it") will become extraverts.

How do I know I'm a Judger and not a Perceiver. This has to do with which function leads and whether you're introverted or extraverted. Is the leading function a perceiving function (N or S) or a judging function (T or F). If you're an extraverted judger, you lead with the judging function; extraverted perceivers lead with their perceiving function. Introverts are the other way around---they keep their primary function for themselves: brain first, then world.

As the person grows older or more accurately matures more, the tertiary function becomes interesting. This can happen between, say early teenage years or even late, like middle age. In my case Fi. Since my emotions are mainly centered around NiTe, I became interested in ethics, morals, ... systems for doing the right thing. For example I started questioning the validity of religion at age 13 and ultimately decided it was not for me. If my tertiary had been centered around something else, I might have developed feelings centered around humans or friends or relatives instead. As it is, I have a stronger emotional reaction to principles than other humans. It is sadder to me when a principle dies than when a human dies. This is somewhat unusual cf. most humans.

Maturing more, we come to the inferior function. For me it's Se. It's the only one left in the stack (the other ones are already taken). It is the opposite version of the dominant function---otherwise there would be too much competition. In my case it's expressed as sports and physical activities.

Why do people appear to test differently from time to time? Doesn't that mean they change their temperament. Well, not according to the theory. This happens insofar people start focusing a lot on a given function; say due to nurture. Lets say I develop a strong interest in my inner emotional space. I go to therapy or somesuch talking about my feelings. Given how much I focus on F-type perspectives, this takes over my general behavior; and now I start testing as an INFP ... because NiTeFiSe was rearranged to FiNiTeSe (<- this is not a type). And now we have confusion. This is where the P and J preferences become weak and people start getting X's in their results. In my case, studying math meant a lot of Ti practice, so I have a strong Ti which comes out in my behavior, except I don't really have a preference for it. It's basically the same problem when so many Americans test as extraverts because unless you're "fun and outgoing", there's something wrong with you in US culture.

(*) For example, one reason I tested eNTJ (TeNi...) on my first test may be that school and interests focused heavily on Te interests while the F dimension was mostly ignored.

Somewhat rarely, people will get interested in their shadow and develop the dispreferred functions. That's just the temperament with e and i flipped. @daylen put out a conjecture than Kegan2~first two functions developed, Kegan3~4 functions developed, Kegan4~6 functions, and Kegan5~all 8 functions. That is a strong assertion but very interesting.

Add: Another way to think about it is to use the CAR model. In this case personality develops from the driver to the spouse ... and then on to the children. Mature individuals may end up with an 8 person minibus. However, while, say, the 10 year old may be put in charge in a given situation, the seating order ostensibly doesn't change, that is to say, the original order just seems more right even if the 10 year old spends a lot of time behind the steering wheel, say. Another way of saying it is that insofar temperamental changes are possible, they takes many many years to unfold. What usually happens as people mature is that they become more mellow... capable of using more functions and applying them appropriately.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15906
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by jacob »

jacob wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:48 am
This dominant function will be either introverted or extraverted. Likely set by brain chemistry. For example, mine is Ni.
BTW, this conflicts with developmental psychologies like Piaget's or Wilber's, who consider Ni to be a highly developed function. Wilber (ostensibly an INFJ himself) calls it vision-logic and Piaget doesn't even mention it (he stops at formal/discrete operations). To be fair, they talk about "the average human" and the normal person, who is an XSXJ, has Ni deeply buried in their shadow and here it does indeed develop very late if at all. So they're correct on average.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15906
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: Building freedom-to recommendations by temperament

Post by jacob »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:26 pm
Should one seek to disprove or overcome fundamental assumptions about oneself?
Whose assumptions? Your assumptions about you or the environment's assumptions about you? I think one reason that INTJs are prevalent in the FIRE millieu is the right combination of being dissatisfied with corporate normality AND being able to find an exit to the situation. INTJs are often cursed with being "the smartest person in the room" (an intellectually lonely place---personally I only feel lonely when surrounded by normies; the more, the worse) and seeing issues nobody else sees but being unable to change the issues because of politics and traditions, which are both in the INTJ shadow. Easiest fix is to leave. Just apply skills.
AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:26 pm
Or is it better to accept who you believe you are now because you've already found suitably alignment between yourself and your environment that's going to cost too much energy to change? Are all people even capable of this change?
I think this developmental game is played unconsciously on either easy-mode, hard-mode, or neutral-mode respectively. If your environment supports your temperamental development, you'll operate at a much more functional level and move much faster through the phases than if you have to find your own way or worse, if your environment thwarts development. For example, I was to a large extent raised by books. My parents are not intellectuals, not even by a long shot; between the two of them, they've probably read ten books after leaving school. OTOH, they always supported my reading habits and never told me that "reading is for stupid nerds", which some parents actually do [to their children]. As such I played the developmental game on neutral mode. I was basically stagnating until I found people who liked rational debate when I first go online in 1989. Shortly thereafter my teachers noted a material change in my essays. What happened to him?!? (Well, my world got bigger.)

The worst environment is one that tries to turn you into what's in your shadow. It may even be well-intentioned ("I'm only trying to help"). The worst environment for an INTJ would be pushed into being "more fun and outgoing" and "lighten up". There's a birthday party coming up and we expect you to show up and talk to everyone.

This is actually one of the reasons I choose not to have kids. Yes, I think I could be a fantastic parent to an NT-child. It would be some variation of a mini-me. I'd be able to empathize with other parents about "how children sees the world the same way as I do but with new eyes". An NF-child would be hit or miss. But woe, if the dice roll turns up an SJ- or an SP-child. That kid would be so screwed.
AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:26 pm
Are all people even capable of this change?
Are all environments capable of this change? That is, figuring out how to be inclusive of all temperaments? Or will environments keep having untapped potential because they're fundamentally incompatible or exclusive of part of humanity? Same as how the workforce or the military used to exclude women? Same as how educational systems that leave it up to money or parental skills leave a lot of undeveloped talent on the floor because it never had a chance to develop.

The overall point I'm making here is that the answer depends on the existing fit between the temperament and the environment. I do think humans like to fit in, but I also think there's nothing worse than trying to fit in and failing without killing off parts of oneself, because that's basically going against one's neurochemistry. Perhaps this is why so many people in the western world are now on psychoactive drugs.

Post Reply