Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
daylen
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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

Post by daylen »

In my experience, I am simultaneously one and many, internally forced and externally forced. As emptiness I surround all and as fullness I concentrate all. I see objects, both as other than me and as reflections of me. No boundaries separate me and no spaces complete me. What am I?

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mountainFrugal
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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

Post by mountainFrugal »

jacob wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:12 am
Would it stand to reason/argument that this is not just fiction but actually how the mind gets constructed.
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My personal chatGTP or Te is essentially just trying to translate this hyperobject into the rather limited format we call "speech" or conversation. If I don't need to talk or write, I do not have an inner voice. This is not how Ni is resolved. It mostly went away when I was in my early twenties. It only activates when I'm preparing to have a conversation, like a podcast. As I'm writing this, I'm just channeling the Ni.
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As such the whole subpersonality thing is borderline useless to me...
Yes. We are constantly creating narratives that have been influenced by others. If you are not self-authoring by taking multiple influences into consideration while being able to consider and chart your own general direction, then you might have alot work to do to get to that place because some narrative(s) have been driving this whole time. I say general direction because that is all that most of us can realistically hope for because it is impossible to predict the future and how we will interact with people or the social, physical or cultural environment.

I also agree with the hyperobject view of things. To speak to the forum audience a bit. The problem is not for @jacob, the problem is when people identify with ONLY this way of thinking when they have not had the same step-by-step development like @jacob. It is highly unusual to have that level of pure development loaded on a single dimension. This directly and indirectly makes @jacob able to see things more clearly that others miss. In @jacob's specific case he does not need, or find useful many of the Plotkin constructs. @jacob is already "sharing his gifts with the world" (in Plotkin speak) by first connecting personal finance and systems thinking, writing a book and then having the patience, perseverance, and conviction in those ideas to cultivate, police, manage, engage and maintain an active community around those ideas. Even going against strong headwinds of criticism from multiple different angles of attack. Taking a step back but still using the Plotkin jargon, @jacob is already a "fully developed adult" that is able to keep multiple perspectives in his head simultaneously and "share his gifts with the world". Through his actions and hard ass work with this community @jacob is already there in Plotkin terms. I think that @jacobs greatest achievement is not putting these ideas together, it is actually sticking it out and seeing that these ideas reach a larger number of people.

However, if we look at the broader discussion on this forum, we see struggle for meaning, purpose, life after FI, escape from work, freedom-from etc. FI is the starting line. My concern is that other people that have not done the equivalent amount of personal development work (directly ala Plotkin or some other internal development framework) or indirectly (managing a forum of individualists for 10+ years), could be dismissive of these types of useful constructs because "INTJ". It would be easy (dare I say lazy?) to think well I am "INTJ" just like @jacob so these ideas are useless to me. This is missing the point. How many people on this forum have built up and managed an organization from scratch based around some ideas they had? The answer is likely close to zero. This is the meta reason why there is a large barrier to get to where @jacob is that is often completely ignored because we are swimming in it on the forum. @jacob does not (as far as I know) have a problem deciding what he is going to do when he wakes up every morning, but many people on this forum do. This is where Plotkin exercises and constructs can help, and has helped, people before on the forum and beyond. I am NOT advocating for only Plotkin. He has built a system that can and has worked for a large number of people.

If we imagine for a second what it would look like if we had a number of @jacobs working together on various projects. This is not to say clones of @jacob, but rather realized humans with different and complementary skills, interests, and conviction. Where they woke up every morning with a clear view of how they saw the world, what the (wicked) problems were by maintaining a multi-perspective viewpoint as much as possible and the drive to try doing something about it. This could be all of us and this is how I see Emergent Renaissance Ecology.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Thanks @mF, that was well put. I suppose one reason I find Plotkin/subpersonality approach so helpful is that it forces me to orient myself on things outside of myself. I'm prone to getting stuck inside of my own head, so focusing on connection/purposes or thinking about how I can fit into some natural order helps orient me outside of myself so that I can be more engaged.

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