Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

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Humanofearth
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Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by Humanofearth »

At 5%, you’re getting 1M/yr without work.

Stem cells for the family is all I can think of. Most importantly: the economic output of work wouldn’t compare without extreme stress.

I’m trying to plan to the end of my goals and not seeing the point beyond globally diversified security. 1M is enough already. At 20M, work motivation dies and any possible businesses I have, would it even feel worth it to run them? What am I overlooking beyond hedonic adaptation working against me to possible retirement and depression or a transcendence beyond money as a top value which I feel already passed?

——Personal notes:
Getting an 8 pack, quitting smoking, hitting new personal records at the gym, quitting media consumption fed to me by AI, reading, love, helping my family, one day learning photography are all more enriching than the benefit of 20M from my limited perspective.

My expenses are <3k/month for a couple and it’s a farfetched dream already when I look back 5 years or think of my dreams as a youngin-nice apartment, clothes, gym, literally eat out at international restaurants or shop whenever & wherever I want but I loathe snob tastes. This can be supported by <1M in assets in my chosen metropolis but let’s work life still feel like a game not yet completed. The only life upgrade I can imagine is a private jet to Uber around the world but I’m not big on travel and that’s a higher budget.

My gf says the only upgrade would be a house for her family, so even for her, it’s more about contributing to family and possibly securing a future for offspring.

suomalainen
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by suomalainen »

You gotta do something with your time, even if/when you don't get paid for it.

bostonimproper
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by bostonimproper »

I mean, yes? Absolutely. Why, is someone offering? :lol:

I think each new tier of wealth offers two things:
1. Reduction of stress. At that level, I would never have to worry about paying for medical care, my kids’ education costs, or home repairs ever again.
2. Expanding your sphere of influence. I could support not just my mother and grandmother into their dotage without having to cohabitate, but could also start businesses and other organizations to make the world look a little bit more like I want it to without compromising my own financial security. This could look like a community land trust, an employee owned B Corp, inventing things and building a startup with all my engineer friends.

I could probably do some of those things at lower wealth levels, but I couldn’t provide funding myself for all of them at a lower typical FIRE wealth threshold.

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Ego
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by Ego »

In case this thread goes anywhere I want to plant the flag here that large amounts of money come with problems and obligations that go beyond simple diminishing returns. Consider the possibility that there is a point where the incremental effect of one additional dollar, peso, pound, or yen makes the overall wellbeing of the owner worse.

The person living in poverty understandably mocks the struggles of the moderately wealthy who suffer their diseases of affluence. Similarly, those with moderate wealth mock the struggles that come with great wealth. "I'll take those problems any day!"

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Seppia
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by Seppia »

I would say that owning $20M of stealth money would certainly make me happy because I could do a lot of good with 90% of it and still have more than enough to be in runaway mode.

IIRC though the OP was investing his/her money mostly in failed Ponzi schemes.
So is the $20M a realistic option?

Humanofearth
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by Humanofearth »

@Ego
Your thoughts clarify what I was overlooking. The incremental benefit of monetary value goes from large to small to negative, radically different than I expected.

I hadn't considered that it turns negative. For me, this change was felt in between 1-2%wr (going from 50x to 100x annual expenses) but I didn't know how to voice it. What solutions do you propose as one reaches this level? I doubled my expenses at that time and still felt the change, expenses never went back down and quality of life increased but strangely, quality of life felt increased yet again once asset values came down.

@suomalainen
So we take care of our health a few hours a day. Love, then work the rest of the time once travel and relaxation become oppressively boring.

@bostonimproper
I imagined a reduction of stress but I didn't feel it. Money felt more all encompassing in thoughts for a time. How to diversify it, where is it safe, enough in this country, what about that country, what the legal implications, what about taxes, what about managing the entities, properties, stocks, bonds. It gets tiring more than empowering at some point unless you're more high energy/ambition than I, which is very possible. It's like getting more than 5 passports instead of enjoying 3, it comes with the feeling of needing to manage too much.

@Seppia
Interesting that you say stealth, because the more we spend, the higher the attention it draws, particularly during an economic downturn. So it becomes hard to hide. By good, it sounds like you'd donate most of it to save puppies and orphans, this could be a beautiful thing that would bring happiness, but likely short term unless it was set up as a trust of some kind that doled out the money over time but even then, most of the money goes to paying staff in most cases so doing the good directly would be best but could also come with many unintended side effects.

xmj
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by xmj »

As an experiment I propose the following.

Go find the well-off people in your extended social circle. At 20m we're talking inheritors or entrepreneurs who started a successful business and scaled for a few years if not decades -- in both cases, you'll probably know one or two people who'd fit the bill.

Then watch how they live, and if you get (or create ;) ) the chance, ask them how they use additional funds to benefit them.

ertyu
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by ertyu »

20m would radically increase my happiness because it would make me location independent and because it would allow me to make decisions without considering cost as a factor.

Admittedly, 5M would do this for me just as well as 20M. I would do things I want to do but which don't make financial sense: for instance, training as a therapist. I would enjoy renovating Trash Place and making decisions entirely on the basis of quality of materials and workmanship rather than cost. I would enjoy making decisions about my clothes, electronics, tools, etc. entirely on the basis of quality and without considering cost as well.

I don't know how long it will take me to get bored of spending 3 months in an airbnb in every city and scenic location i can think of, lazying about in coffeeshops and sipping brew, but i am willing to give it a try.I also love the idea of being able to purchase citizenship in whichever country I desire.

I love @bi's idea of getting my elder care responsibilities out of the way with minimal personal involvement. Ditto, I would love the ability to take care of my own increpit old age without feeling like i have to depend on the kindness of others.

Last but not least, I would get quality therapy for myself.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by Hristo Botev »

I don't know what they want from me
It's like the more money we come across
The more problems we see
I don't know what they want from me
It's like the more money we come across (yeah, yeah, a-ha)
The more problems we see
Notorious B.I.G.

Henry
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by Henry »

I think "I don't know what they want from me" is the key line." My read is that Biggie can't decipher whether they love him or his money. And then he got shot at 24 so he never had to face the fact that it was his money. Being that there is only one person in the world that loves me, or at least says she does, and has been saying it since I was broke ass, I don't have that basic concern. So I don't have the problems of being born into money or becoming rich at a young age.

So the answer is a basic fuck yeah. I am not navel gazing out of it. I could carry out some of my more anti-social tendencies knowing that my reputation doesn't mean anything and I can hire a team of legal monkeys to get me out of a bind. 20M moves me from farting into Walmart PA systems into buying homes next to my enemies and making their lives miserable by blasting the movie soundtrack of Fiddler on The Roof 24/7. If my wife dies before me, I know the next woman only wants to be with me because of my money because that's what the contract will stipulate.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by Hristo Botev »

Henry wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:20 am
Definitely seems to help when you marry before you have money, at least wrt Biggie’s Mo Money Mo Problems logic. But, then, there all those dateline and 20/20 episodes where the hubby gets killed for the insurance money; so, problems indeed.

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unemployable
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by unemployable »

It's easier to pretend you don't have money when you do, than to pretend you do have money when you don't, so yes. But I'm not sure I'd change the way I'd live a whole lot. I'd just do it with nicer things. What am I gonna do not having worked in 13 years, start a business?

You certainly just can't start giving it away without consequences. People find out. Charities, schools and causes always want more. And causes X, Y and Z will find out how big a check you wrote to cause A. Some comb real estate transactions and unravel the maze of who owns what LLC if they think they can make a buck out of it. But how much you give and how you give it is a choice. Everything everyone has discussed here is a choice; you can just keep it in TIPS in your Vanguard account if you want. So if it makes you less happy, whose fault is that, dummy?

But I do wonder, those of you who live without furniture, you gonna finally get a goddamn couch already?

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Seppia
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by Seppia »

Humanofearth wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:33 am
Interesting that you say stealth, because the more we spend, the higher the attention it draws, particularly during an economic downturn. So it becomes hard to hide. By good, it sounds like you'd donate most of it to save puppies and orphans, this could be a beautiful thing that would bring happiness, but likely short term unless it was set up as a trust of some kind that doled out the money over time but even then, most of the money goes to paying staff in most cases so doing the good directly would be best but could also come with many unintended side effects.
Yes it would have to be stealth.
As others have noted, there would be no practical difference between receiving 2M or 20M, the marginal utility of all dollars beyond $2M would be zero for me and my family.
I don't know how you draw your conclusion that giving money away to charitable causes would be a short term happiness boost.
I would make that my "job" :)

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unemployable
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by unemployable »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:30 am
But, then, there all those dateline and 20/20 episodes where the hubby gets killed for the insurance money; so, problems indeed.
Coincidentally, last night I went down a Wikipedia rabbit hole of lottery winners with their own pages. A surprising number are US legislators and European soccer players, which probably evinces some of Wiki's knowledge bias. But there was also this guy.

Henry
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by Henry »

I'm not representing that my wife won't kill me. That's always to be considered in probabilistic terms. But I have to live as though it's not going to happen. And any ways, I've lived long enough. At this point, it's no tragedy if she does. I just hope she would let do my Fiddler on The Roof thing. And maybe a couple of horses.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by Hristo Botev »

Henry wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:47 am
I'm not representing that my wife won't kill me. That's always to be considered in probabilistic terms.
Question I recently received from a new dad: "How much should I get in term life insurance?"

My answer: "Enough that your family will be comfortable, not so much that you will end up the victim on an episode of Dateline."

Henry
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by Henry »

In 2021 I finally reached the exalted worth more alive than dead status. Then 2022 Zoomed me up the butthole. That look that Jimmy Stewart gives in It's A Wonderful Life when Potter tells George Bailey he's worth more dead than alive made me want to jump off a fucking bridge. I don't need a bunch of dumbass townies to love me. Give me the 20M.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by Hristo Botev »

Henry wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:03 am
In 2021 I finally reached the exalted worth more alive than dead status. Then 2022 Zoomed me up the butthole.
Same!

Also, almost every Dateline episode: He or she takes on some new hobby, usually something like CrossFit; also, we learn that he has a 7 figure insurance policy (though, sometimes it's only 6 figures, which makes you wonder); also also, somehow related to that new hobby, he or she meets someone new.

Recipe for murder.

Henry
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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by Henry »

unemployable wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:41 am
It's easier to pretend you don't have money when you do, than to pretend you do have money when you don't, so yes.
In order to survive, the Hasidic community were required to take the pretend you don't have money route and has for the most part continued doing so to this day. A basic uniform and a beater minivan.

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Re: Would 20M Radically Increase Your Happiness?

Post by jacob »

No, it wouldn't.

I FIRE'd at 25x and I'm now at ~150x and very few things have changed.

I still distinguish between price and value. A cup of coffee will never have a value of $50 no matter how much money I have. A car will never be worth more than $10000. The only things forcing up my expenses are insurance and taxes which are priced at what other people spend.

Socially, becoming a millionaire did change how some [mainstream] people see me. I'm now a relatively rich eccentric rather than a loser who chose deliberate poverty. This makes this messenger a bit more effective in terms of reaching normies. To others it makes me a tourist.

As such there isn't anything I couldn't afford that would make me happier in the hedonic sense. FI means being able to afford anything you want but not everything.

Happiness in the arete sense is a different animal. There would be bigger and more meaningful things to use 20M on than luxury consumerism. The thing is, I'm no Elon Musk, so I don't know how to start big projects on my own. I note that charities and nonprofits are for the most part screamingly inefficient moneywasters. If this website was run as a nonprofit do-gooder organization, it would easily blow through the $50000 per year in expenses, rent-contributing fees, and "fair salaries", that similarly sized "organizations" do. I run this show on about $750/year. The same problem generally holds for relatives.

Perhaps because of this general lack of skills, I notice that multimillionaires in the 8 figure range tend to get into venture capitalism. I suppose that's a way of buying energy and ideas from other people when one personally lacks them. I would find this difficult to do. People who can use money well usually don't need it anyway. Therein lies the problem with simply giving it away---to me it would come with the massive responsibility of ensuring that it was used both efficiently and effectively.

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