Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

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jacob
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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by jacob »

I can do conditioning on my own. I can also punch a bag on my own (I did full contact karate as a teen). I'm looking for a purpose beyond just "being in shape" and sparring in what is considered one of the hardest sports could fit the bill. Swordfighting has lots of distance, coordination, and proprioception work, but no sparring with swords for obvious reasons + it's also not very physically demanding.

My experience with karate was that restricting techniques/changing rules (no punches to the head) completely changed the style. When using big gloves and pads, people would change from combos and bodyblows to whaling on each other with lowkicks and hooks and punches to the head without being very intelligent about it due to lack of practice with the particular rule set.

Add: The karate variant I practiced was a spin off from kyokushin kai (minus the kata and competition) where the main rule was "no punches to the head" but otherwise concentrated on knocking/grinding the opponent down. Lots of time spent conditioning to taking hits (except the head). So heavy sparing fundamentally meant grinding each other down with low kicks and body blows until somebody cries uncle. Light sparing, which also happened, was more about making up simple combos and getting a 1 single hit in and backing off again, akin to "point-style" competitions. Boxing is interesting to me because it falls in between those two "extremes". For some reason rolling on the ground doesn't excite me.

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by theanimal »

In that case, (again) i think jiu jitsu fits the bill. It's 3d physical chess. I think you may really like it.

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by M »

chenda wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2022 3:14 pm
Maybe Jacob could clarify what his goals are.

If it's fun or fitness then non-sparring boxing is great fun (even for an uncoordinated dullard like me who struggles with just a jab-straight)

If though he's looking to unleash his inner viking and actually fight then grappling arts are probably a lot safer overall. I briefly tried judo when I was at university but didn't like getting up close and personal with randoms. Though I imagine you can get over that quite quickly.

From what little I know ju jitsu is more diverse where you can develop your own style, whereas judo is more sports oriented and technique restricted ?
Yeah - I think judo is more technique restricted and very up close and personal for sure.

My class was about 50/50 split between men and women. We spent a lot of time practicing choke holds, throws, counters, and ground fighting. I don't recall ever once practicing striking someone, but we spent a LOT of time practicing counters to strikes and throwing people in response to strikes and disarming people. We were told Judo is only for defense and it was drilled into us to never use the techniques to attack someone - only defense. The sensi said that fights in the real world will quickly get up close and personal, so we spent a LOT of time wrestling and ground fighting and getting up close and personal.

One class was very strange and was specifically to teach women techniques for getting out of sexual violence and rape scenarios using both psychological and physical techniques. Men and women were paired up and acted out various rape scenarios, counters and techniques the women could use to get out of them, various techniques and behaviors to prevent being sexually assaulted, red flags to watch out for in men, how to behave to make sure you don't seem like an easy target, various situations to avoid to begin with, safe dating advice, sexual assault statistics and who you are most likely to be assaulted by (probably by someone you know or dated even...) etc etc...I don't think that was part of judo. I think the sensi just made that whole class up to try and protect his female students.

Our sensi used to have his friends follow his students out into public and attempt to physically attack us when we least expected it to increase our awareness and test how well we could subconsciously counter someone without thinking about it. When the university found out about this particular practice they made him stop doing that.

It sounds like @Jacob wants something more physically challenging though so judo may not be the answer here.

Plus your back really does hurt after getting thrown to the ground a few dozen times...I don't think I would want to do judo again if I were approaching 50. My back hurts sometime just thinking about it.

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by jacob »

theanimal wrote:
Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:27 am
It's 3d physical chess. I think you may really like it.
For sports, I actually prefer the intuitive/physical (Se) over the analytical (Ti). Shotguns more than rifles. I do enough 3d chess elsewhere in my life. It's a balance thing.

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by Slevin »

Hmmm in that case I would suggest dance, and something slated towards improv. That would best suggest Gaga, but there are only really good Gaga studios in Israel and Oakland / SF and a couple other random places where Bathsheba dancers have retired to. Secondarily suggest modern dance with a focus on improv / hip hop / or maybe any ballroom in which you learn steps but then have to put them together with a partner in a complicated intersubjective way to differing rhythms. Swing is also similar but more fun (personal opinion).

Complicated Se things that aren’t dance would be acrobatics, and I would personally bias towards the arching acrobatics coming from capoeira, as they have the most interesting complexity and good level of scale. Basically the idea is to have dynamic control and understanding of the body moving through space + inverting + a dramatic shifting of your internal coordinate system.

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by liberty »

I have tried other martial arts, and enjoy it. It's cool to have new things to learn at each belt level. But boxing doesn't have this aspect? Isn't it very one-dimensional? You just punch, in different rhythms, block, and move a bit back and forth? Please explain the fun aspects of boxing, and I might try it :D

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by jacob »

liberty wrote:
Mon Dec 12, 2022 12:41 pm
I have tried other martial arts, and enjoy it. It's cool to have new things to learn at each belt level. But boxing doesn't have this aspect? Isn't it very one-dimensional? You just punch, in different rhythms, block, and move a bit back and forth? Please explain the fun aspects of boxing, and I might try it :D
At this point mastering the fundamentals and concentrating on putting them together really well holds more appeal to me than learning dozens of new techniques.

Limiting technique to just handful of strikes and moves is a feature rather than a bug or a limit. It forces the fighters to look at the deeper game. Just moving back and forth and thinking of boxing in terms of blocks and punches and changing rhythms will probably lose most of the time. Combinations and strategy can create a deep recipe out of simple ingredients. For example, the Philly defense.

Compare to rookie personal finance where the focus is often on learning new things and tricks. Spend less than your earn. Buy this thing and not that. However, the "learning new tips and tricks"-strategy soon reaches a limit at which point the deeper game takes over. This is more obvious in boxing or other adversarial games than non-adversarial games.

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by Slevin »

@liberty That's the whole point of boxing. all you can do is punch, and while there are many different ways of punching (including in the clinch, etc), that's the only tool you get. And restriction builds innovation and skill ceilings.

For example, boxing is a game of rhythm creation and rhythm breaking, where you are trying to step into a rhythm in which you make your opponent adopt your rhythm (he steps on 1,2, and always punches on an on beat), and then you break the rhythm to confuse the opponent. Space is also incredibly important, in a tiny measure. You need to gain the awareness of how far a step and reach can put the opponent in any direction, and if there is a way to do so that will cause them to shift balance in a way you can exploit. I.e. "at this distance, my opponent can step in for a punch, but he will have to overextend in a way that he won't be able to retreat out of range from making this blow". Then you exploit the situation if it occurs. Your opponent might see it as well, and use the idea that he/she needs to overextend to get the blow to fake the weight shift, causing you to react, but it turns out the didn't overreach, and exploit your weight shift in reaction to use to their advantage. Its an intersubjective dance, but one with consequences. And one in which you build up a much higher level of footwork, of balance, of rhythm, of agility, of body connection, and of cunning than you would build up in a "martial art" because the little things have a much higher consequence, and they are all incredibly important tools which determine the outcome of the match.

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by liberty »

Nice explanation @jacob and @Slevin.

I would probably not like to do actual fights, though, as getting punched in head is pretty unhealthy. An alternative could be to use a robot, like this.

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by steveo73 »

Boxing or any striking art is never a good idea due to head injuries.

Try jiu-jitsu. In my opinion it's the softest of the realistic martial arts. It's great fun as well. I've done Judo which is great as well but it's harder on the body.

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by steveo73 »

ffj wrote:
Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:12 pm
What is the point of boxing if you don't spar?
It's a fitness workout. It can be great fun. You won't be able to box though unless you are sparring.
ffj wrote:
Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:12 pm
And is sparring worth the price of getting injured?
No.
ffj wrote:
Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:12 pm
My question would be if you don't spar, are you really learning boxing?
No.
Last edited by steveo73 on Sat Dec 17, 2022 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by steveo73 »

theanimal wrote:
Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:56 pm
I'd suggest checking out jiu jitsu. It's an infinite game that you can spar full out with far less risk of injury and very low risk regarding head trauma. I can choke you out a dozen times a day multiple times a week with no health risk.
It's fun and it's highly technical. I'm 49 and I've been doing jiu-jitsu for 20 years. I'm a little guy and I wrestle everyone hard. I had a really bad shoulder for a while but I've fixed that via hanging from a bar. I've dislocated my knee cap twice and my shoulder once. I have a finger that goes every so often. This year I've had a bunch of skin infections which do suck.

That cost for the benefits it's given me is absolutely nothing. I feel great.

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by steveo73 »

jacob wrote:
Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:12 am
For some reason rolling on the ground doesn't excite me.
It's awesome. So much fun. You'll get destroyed but if you can handle it you'll be a lot better in 6 months time and then a couple years on from that. It's just the learning phase that is so tough.

I reckon basketball is a great sport but I love jiu-jitsu more. I think it's the most boring sport to watch but what a sport to do.

I want to be on the mats for another 10 years.

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by Henry »

Jacob Lund Fisker, Astrophysicist: "Boxing sounds fun and interesting from very many perspectives..."

Mike Tyson, Former World Heavyweight Champion: "I want to eat your children."

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by chenda »

So did you take it up Jacob ?

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by jacob »

chenda wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:22 pm
So did you take it up Jacob ?
Not yet. I make decisions much slower than month-by-month.

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by chenda »

Still curious Jacob if you took it up ?

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by jacob »

Nope.

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Re: Boxing: Would that ever be a good idea?

Post by chenda »

I see you as more of a fencer.

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