Movement

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Blackjack
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Re: Movement

Post by Blackjack »

Scott 2 wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:03 am

My feet and legs have a long way to go. I cannot walk as fast or as far wearing the Prios. It takes about an hour for serious fatigue to set in. Also, now that I have this context, going back into my old shoes sucks. The casting of my foot feels obvious and uncomfortable. It is a change that will take time to evaluate. Over the next year, I expect to either be entirely on barefoot shoes, or injured and back in the new balances.

I am still working my foot health daily - balance pad, stretching, rolling on a lacrosse ball, manual therapy and toe exercises.

Around a third of my lower body lifting includes exercises related to using my feet better. It's all barefoot. I am weaning myself on to free standing calf raises. I use a silicone toe spacer between my big toe and pointer for single leg work. In my case - I need to compress that to bring my toes into alignment and working. Something like yoga toes makes my problems worse.
Can i recommend tibialis raises in there as well (as something that may help with that fatigue)? Ben Patrick explains why a hell of a lot better than I can, but it is the main ankle decelerator in the foot. Very important to walking and improving foot function, and for me it was one of the main ways I've drastically improved my functioning of my feet over the past year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNS_QjG ... vertoesguy. 2 sets of 25 using just bodyweight and messing with angles as you get tired / it gets easy is totes good enough.

Scott 2
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Re: Movement

Post by Scott 2 »

I'll give tibialis raises a try once I get used to the freestanding calf raises. Those blow up the fronts of my shins, especially in the stretched position.

KRUMPn
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Re: Movement

Post by KRUMPn »

@Scott 2 Glad to hear they have a solid build. I have a new pair of Vivobarefoots, that are super light but I'm worried the material may not hold up well. Those look solid for dress shoes since you want to avoid leather. Being okay with leather would open up a huge selection in that real, but I totally understand why you would want to avoid this. I have some brown leather desert boots that I found for a quarter of there original price that have held up decently for about 8 years, since they don't get frequent. These basically go with everything I do to dress up, except maybe a funeral (which I'm now realizing I don't have anything that would fit the appropriate expectations, but that would probably fit in the Fashion thread better). I'll get off the shoes now, I didn't mean to sidetrack this into a shoe thread, but switching over has definitely improved my life.

I can attest to improvement in knee health with a some of the concepts Ben Patrick talks about. I've been doing body weight hack squats in the morning as part of my joint warm-up routine (basically stolen from this video, but adding in the hack squats, some "toe yoga" and the tibialis raises). My knees used to feel awful from the previous surgeries, but after I started getting into deep knee flexion stuff it seems to pretty much subsided. A lot of what he talks about reminds me of a lot of stuff in Pavel Tsatsouline's books and the Flexible Steel stuff (being strong in all ranges of motion especially). Still haven't figured out the hip stuff completely. I would love to do the splits at some point. Also still struggle a little with a weak ankle, although it's way better than it was when I was playing basketball. Anyone have any suggestions on how to move forward with those two?

Scott 2
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Re: Movement

Post by Scott 2 »

Thought I'd bump this thread:

I've found bounds in using the barefoot shoes. When it's extremely cold, my foot chills through the sole. It sucks the heat right out of me. Walk too much, and my knees will complain from accumulated impact. So, at times I throw on a pair of old new balance sneakers. Kind of like how I'd previously used boots. They do make my toes hurt. There are better near barefoot options, but I've got a shoe budget to balance over here.

My feet are strong enough now, that I can do box step ups barefoot. I was always a little hesitant in the past, especially when I'd step down. With that added capacity, I've started looking at moving laterally during training. The starting point is lateral box step overs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCNmLCG2q78

I am going to mix it up between 12" and 18" boxes, as well as a purely lateral or a cross-over movement pattern. Nothing heavy, but, I think getting myself out of the typical lifting planes of motion will be helpful. Along with this, I'm bringing more single arm work into my upper body training, including building back into full turkish getups. Compound movements remain the engine, but more and more, my focus is on movement based scaffolding around a few heavy sets.


For me, movement integration into daily life did stall out. I kept the half foam rollers, lacrosse balls and balance pad. I use them all the time. But that's about it. Prior to all this, I already had my bed on the floor, parked at the end of the parking lot, used a stability ball as a chair, etc. I never bought the rock mat, kneeling chair, or any of the other special accessories.

KRUMPn
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Re: Movement

Post by KRUMPn »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 1:36 pm
For me, movement integration into daily life did stall out. I kept the half foam rollers, lacrosse balls and balance pad. I use them all the time. But that's about it. Prior to all this, I already had my bed on the floor, parked at the end of the parking lot, used a stability ball as a chair, etc. I never bought the rock mat, kneeling chair, or any of the other special accessories.
I think we may be running into similar problems. Integrating a lot of this stuff into a normal life takes a lot of effort and time. I'm starting to think there is a limit on how much can be accomplished in this realm without either being in a "natural" setting more often (this will be my attempt living out of my truck on public land) or engineering one in a major way (something like how Katy Bowman set up her house with things that force the movement in to everyday tasks). Even with both of these options there's always the temptation to just lay about since you can do that pretty much anywhere. At least without a nice comfy couch it limits how long you want to do it.

Glad to hear you have made progress with foot strength! As far as getting rid of foot chills, this could be an exercise in changing your mindset and seeing it as a cold challenge. I have also notice that as I've lived barefoot most of the day and worn shoes like you mention I notic it less and less. One counterintuitive trick I have learned is that standing barefoot in the snow for ~10ish minutes flushes blood to my feet and when I go inside my feet get hot. It works way better than any socks/hot water that I've tried. Also thick wool socks, while not the best for proprioception are great for keeping feet warm in my experience, especially in winter when wetness becomes a factor. Also they don't deform your feet like many hefty boots will (unless your shoes don't have enough space to accomodate them.

I hear you on the knees thing. Two knee surgeries have given me plent of issues. The only advice (if you even want it) I can offer is try stepping "lighter" as in using your muscles to decelerate befor your foot makes contact and taking shorter strides (not to the old man shuffle level though :D ). You may already have found this out. For me it helps tremendously with keeping pain at bay. Luckily for me It has become my natural way of walking, except for when I'm trying to walk fast. Luckily hanging out with Hawaiians in college has instilled a nice "island stroll" in my gait.

theanimal
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Re: Movement

Post by theanimal »

@Scott2 and Krumpn

Are you guys familiar with the trainers that now specialize in eliminating knee pain by strengthening ligaments and muscles in and around the knee? In many cases, no surgery required to be pain free. There are a few programs/trainers, the only one that I am familiar with is Ben Patrick, known as the "knees over toes guy." His whole practice originated when he had to quit playing collegiate basketball because his knee pain was too extensive. During that time he discovered some exercises and fast forward ~10 years he is able to dunk a basketball and play everyday, pain and surgery free. Now he works with some NBA players and other professional athletes. He does a variety of squats, lunges and stretches that supposedly work to strengthen that part of the body and eliminate any pain. The core part of his workout is walking backwards 100 meters dragging a weighted sled. He does that exercise every day then adds in some of the other things if need be. I've started doing the backwards walking weighted sled drag 1-2 times a week on the snow and have found it useful for strengthening the muscles on either side of my knee. I should note that I haven't ever experienced any knee pain.

He has a few books out. I haven't looked at any of those yet. I heard him on Joe Rogan 2 months or so ago. A friend of mine very involved in the basketball world told me of other knee programs that are better but I can't seem to remember any of the names at the moment.

KRUMPn
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Re: Movement

Post by KRUMPn »

theanimal wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 8:39 pm
I actually heard him on Rogan too, which kick started the research into what he's doing. I have recently been trying to integrates some of his stuff. I think the ATG Split Squat has been useful in building resilience, at least moving forward/backward. My leg work is basically what I consider prehab exercises at this point. I seem to get more out of this than I ever got out of heavy squats and deadlift. Unfortunately I haven't figured out an easy way to do his backward walk without a sled set up which I don't have space for even if I wanted ot spend the money. Currently I don't have a good way to try and push my truck, nor do I have anyone I could get to drive it while I do so. I also tried dragging my kettlebell on the ground, but it didn't feel like enough resistance. His overall scheme reminds me of some of Pavel's stuff (strengthen the entire range of motion). At this point I have gotten rid of a lot of limitations and pain related to my knees following these principles. I think you can find a lot of his recommendations in other programs (yoga, StrongFirst, MovNat and maybe Supple Leopard come to mind), but his seems to be one of the first knee focused that I found. I havent taken a deep dive into his stuff so I can't speak to how effective his programs actually are. I think the principles he espouses are generally sound though!

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Slevin
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Re: Movement

Post by Slevin »

@theanimal I’ve done his training on my own for about 2 years, and convinced a few members of my partner’s family (who all have knee issues to some extent) to train it for the past few months.

It is the most systemically thorough training program that I’ve encountered so far, eons above most of the strength training regimens out there (since it’s more mobility + tendon and ligament + rehab + bulletproofing training than strength training), and the results are absolutely insane. The system is built to treat most imbalances from multiple approaches, and thus will iron out the imbalances from people who tend towards one of the extremes in any motion range. Consider it high WL6-7 in the approach and programming, but then the actual work is translated down to something simple that can be carbon copied by the trainees, and sets are filmed everyday for a feedback loop with coaches.

Everything is given with scaling exercises, with total “standards” that are to be reached if you want to be in the elite level of performance, and some chiller ones below that for more normal people.

It isn’t a silver bullet, as it’s a hell of a lot of work to reach the goals, and using their “apps” and such can be frustrating at some moments (though I’ve been offered to be trained personally by their top coach at this point), but I haven’t seen anything close to it being offered these days, and the average results of the people who have been on the system for 1 year + speak for themselves. Even taking the self selection bias into account, it’s still impressive, and I think (and sincerely hope) it’s gonna end up being a paradigm shift in training for athletes and just people training for long term health in general.

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Slevin
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Re: Movement

Post by Slevin »

@KRUMPn forwards and backwards sled is amazing. I use an upside down felt door mat I cut up a bit (cost like $6) on a concrete floor in my house (which is like 20ft long at most) with some weights on top, and a piece of rope to grip. It’s held up surprisingly well. This idea is based on the indoor sleds which all have felt feet to drag and not mark the floor, and then the rest is just fancy nonsense which hold weights on.

Also the system is more than just strength through range of motion. It’s also using the correct exercises (and often isolating) to target and train problem areas for most people, and hitting them from multiple exercises / perspectives to try to eventually cause the response / patterning that we want to build for larger movements. In addition to this, it is constantly using single limb isolation to make sure you aren’t overcompensating with a single limb or just propagating / increasing imbalances. It is also singling out spinal health, shoulder health, knee health, ankle health, toe health, finger health, elbow health, and neck health. Always trying to build things in balance.
Last edited by Slevin on Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

theanimal
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Re: Movement

Post by theanimal »

@KRUMPn- I just use a utility sled like this https://www.marksbait.com/uploads/4/8/8 ... _w363.jpeg with some weight in it. I do have the good fortune of having endless snow to drag it on but I think the same could be done on a grass lawn such as at a local park. This is not my sled's main function though and I understand it might be impractical to have something as large in a more urban area specifically for this purpose.

@Slevin- Very intriguing. How have you followed his program? Through daily videos on Instagram? His books? The app? I have been debating buying the books (not available in any libraries here) but have been hesitant to so. Your post has me thinking it would be worthwhile.

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Slevin
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Re: Movement

Post by Slevin »

@theanimal I’ve been a paid client. Back in the very very beginning it was a website with daily workouts and such, then eventually migrated to dailies (which are repeated every week 5 days a week) on the TrueCoach app with daily uploading of form videos (which is hot garbage, and they are building their own app rn). The progressions and standards have been updating pretty much constantly as iterative processes show what is better for gains and more people allow better tuning of systems.

The downside is that on the daily you are often getting feedback from a rotating “coach” who may miss suggesting fixes if you have the same issue on an exercise because they are rotating, and that tailoring is not explicit to your own weak points. With a proper amount of self-knowledge of your weaknesses as well as adapting the workouts a bit to make sure you focus on weak points every week, you can patch these issues and the system ends up being really really good.

In terms of whether you need the apps or to pay monthly; meh depends on you. They are useful for programming and form feedback until you dial the form in (and you will need it on some of this weird stuff, always lets the ego be a little more humble). I haven’t read the books, but I would assume they would also be of a good quality if they are anything like the rest of his content.

Scott 2
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Re: Movement

Post by Scott 2 »

@KRUMPn - My gait is still adjusting towards a light step. Walking on grass or crushed limestone, the experience is pretty good. Pavement is much more unforgiving. I feel a like a baby deer. Xero shoes sends out a new customer newsletter. In it, they argue in favor of practicing on pavement. The feedback is supposed to teach you to move better.

What's been interesting, is I keep some of the gait changes switching back to heavy shoes. I used to turn my feet out and roll on the outside of my foot. That has diminished. I think some of the knee pain comes from stressing previously unused tissue. My body needs to adapt.

The foot chills hit on a day when it was 15 degrees outside, with snow and ice on the ground. We were casually wandering an ice sculpture event. Since I never had the problem before, I didn't stop to think if I was dressed properly. So, mostly a failure to apply common sense.

On a full speed walk through the snow, the thin soles are great fun. Traction comes from my foot conforming around packed snow. There are little arch shaped bumps in my foot prints. A worn path massages my foot through the shoes, similar to walking on rocks. The experience feels closer to nature.


I need to give Ben Patrick another look. I casually browsed his content last year but was put off by the marketing.


A tire can be used to make a simple drag sled:

https://strongmadesimple.com/blog/2012/ ... -tire-sled

I had a metal push sled for several years. I found it extremely loud on pavement. Access to grass required taking my car to the park. Add on cleaning the grass out of my car, and it was enough hassle that I rarely used it.

I upgraded to a Torque M2 Tank in early 2020, when my gym closed. So now I can push or drag out of my garage. Unfortunately, I learned consistent sled work takes a special type of mental resilience. I haven't found it. I intend to try again this spring. The money and space I have tied up in an unused sled bothers me.

KRUMPn
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Re: Movement

Post by KRUMPn »

Slevin wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:29 pm
@KRUMPn forwards and backwards sled is amazing.
I have totally been sold on sled work long before hearing about KOT. We actually used to have prowler sleds where I worked out during high school and were constantly doing field length pulls and pushes. I always found it enjoyable in the most painful kind of way. Also very satisfying.
theanimal wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:36 pm
@KRUMPn- I just use a utility sled like this
My biggest issue at this point is I'm planning on living out of my truck so space is extremely limited. My "gym" will essentially consist an adjustable kettlebell (12kg-32kg), gymnastics rings/rock rings and some rope. I'm thinking I will try and find a way to add sled work in. Perhaps a way to increase friction so weight can stay lower would work best for limited space. I'll have to keep thinking through this since I would like to have some way of adding this.
Slevin wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:29 pm
Also the system is more than just strength through range of motion.
Yeah I agree that his program is more than just doing strength exercises through the entire range of motion, but it seems to me that the goal is having strength through the enitre range of all movements (in the entire body), if that makes sense? I think I may have been mashing my words in my previous comment. Anyway his program does seem to be one of the most well structured for this particular pursuti. Luckily I have been doing a lot of what I've seen from his approach incidentally so I don't have much for knee issues at this point (at least as far as I can tell, I definitely don't do a lot of the same movements required from basketball since I gave up on it almost a decade ago). Having his approach sounds like it would have sped up this process for sure though. I think I'll check out his Knee Ability Zero book and see what I can glean from that.
Scott 2 wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:39 am
The experience feels closer to nature.
This is probably my favorite thing about being barefoot or in minimalist shoes. You can just feel so much more of your environment. I also like walking around on gravel roads since is feels like a free foot massage. Based on your description it sounds like this has been a success even if you do move back to traditional shoes!

Scott 2
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Re: Movement

Post by Scott 2 »

I wonder if one of the fabric Spud sleds would be well suited to a truck gym. 32kg isn't much weight, but maybe you could throw something else on top of it:

https://www.spud-inc-straps.com/product/mini-me-sled/


I took a quick dive into knees over toes guy material yesterday. He's got an 11 episode podcast that seems to give the principles. The programs are heavily discussed online, as well.

I'm going to give reverse squats a try, throwing them into my lower body warm-up. That is an obvious weak point and fits well into my current plan. The exercise is multi-joint and easy to setup with a band. I like to think I'll do more sled work for cardio, but time will tell. Tib raises are a maybe. Historically, single joint movements lose my attention very quickly.

I like his message of opposing movements, gradual progression, and developing a reserve of safe ROM. It's interesting to see him push physical therapy exercises as the next big thing. Terminal knee extensions are boring. Performance isn't. I get it.

I do not like the focus on end range of motion strength, especially when he sells it with stupid human tricks. IMO the risk is too high. Accumulated wear can take years to manifest as an unsolvable problem. Connective tissue, once stretched out, doesn't bounce back. Over decades, that becomes damaged cartilage, joint instability, arthritis and chronic pain. Extremes are bad. Both power lifters and yogis end up with hip replacements.

I'd much rather stop at a little more ROM than needed for my activities. I'll keep my hard strength training in the middle 80% of that range.

The canned programming looks good for his bottom line, but not for me. I am far from gifted physically. I get one or two goals in a cycle. My only chance for progress, is to pick a specific weak point and focus for 8-16 weeks. Then I have to move on, or the specialization will break me.

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Slevin
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Re: Movement

Post by Slevin »

@Scott 2 I like the more conservative approaches that give you what you need, so I think that going just a bit over what you need range of motion wise will treat you decently or well enough in the long run. I will, however, argue that yogis don’t tend to have strength in the end ranges of the length that are built, which can lead to a lot of injuries. Same with dancers generally (though often they also suffer from inability to tell good patterns from bad patterns or being able to isolate nearly everything in strange ways that can be detrimental). Usually the solution is to start building more strength through the ranges of motion while also bulletproofing (strengthening) the joints via accessory exercises. Over the course of a year or two this will get those very flexible humans into healthier shape where they are significantly less injury prone.

This argument is not saying everyone should have the splits or head to toe or a full pancake though. Just pointing out that you can reduce harm and injuries through strengthening your range of motion if you have it, and often the yogis don’t (which is an argument against your dismissal of strength through length because yogis also get hip replacements). My opinion is anecdotal and subjective to my memory though, with my number of samples being those that I trained with over the course of 3-5 years that didn’t quit, with a total n of ex-yogis who were too flexible and not strong enough in the end ranges of their flexibility and fixed it being in the 15-30 range (and I think nearly 100% of the ex yogis who came in were more flexible than strong, I can only remember a couple of exceptions, both from other movement “gurus” in a sense who had lots of followers and one armed handstands and taught hand balancing courses / seminars)

Scott 2
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Re: Movement

Post by Scott 2 »

For someone who already has overly mobile joints, I agree there is a ton of value in strengthening end ranges of motion. Their connective tissue no longer serves the intended purpose. My anecdotal observation - among long term yogis, pain makes this the primary focus of practice. I'd always wonder - "at this point, why not go lift weights?" It sounds like some find their way to Ben Patrick.

My observation in yoga studios - people often chase mobility, without considering how it suits their body. Maybe someone gets a deep back bend by jamming into their lumbar spine. Or they get that forward fold entirely from their hamstrings, instead of spreading the movement through their hips and sacrum. The person finds a spot that will overstretch, and then they go for it.

Adding weight on to that behavior, makes me nervous. I would not trust myself to self-evaluate for such movements. I imagine that's part of the reason KOT guy does daily form checks. For my demographic - a relatively non-athletic middle aged male, I don't see sufficient benefit. The risk to reward is too high.

I can see reasons one might play his game. But I'm not there. I also think individualized 1 on 1 coaching would be a completely different story.

Western Red Cedar
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Re: Movement

Post by Western Red Cedar »

Giving this thread a bump and posting the response from @Slevin (formerly Blackjack?) in mountainfrugals journal:
Slevin wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:33 am
You’re on the mark here. Massage, heat, needling / acupuncture, and using tennis balls or lacrosse balls to do myofascial release / trigger point massage all are going to work to temporarily remove muscle tightness / contraction. If you are injured, this can super important so that you can actually lightly work the injured tissue (the name of the game is increasing blood flow many times throughout the day). If you this is a repeating pattern or one area is simply just “locked up”, it’s probably a biomechanics issue where you need to readjust one or many parts of your body to slowly increase range of motion around the area. With a good system, being lucky, and having very consistent practice this could take a few weeks, or up to several years (some of my issues are coming up closer to a decade now tbh) when you are just “missing” prerequisite motor patterns / kinesthetic awareness that is needed to access a range of motion.

So once you’ve gotten a bit unlocked from an injury, it’s time to slowly work on exercises that strengthen in the end ranges of motion. We don’t really have a complete consensus for best practices for building mobility for everyone (and it’s somewhat always a personal game of what works best for you after trying out many different types of sets / reps / training volume / etc and what you can stick to as well), but the trend that has worked for me is a slow tempo in the eccentric, fast tempo on the concentric, for 15-25 reps, 2-3 sets (2 sets at 25, 3 sets up to 20).

Now to me hips are hard to diagnose because “hip issue” could literally be a hip issue, but it could also be a lower back issue, upper back issue, psoas issue, quad issue, hamstring issue, hip flexor issue, or a combination of several of the things down any one of those chains. I need more context clues to even start to be able to give some ideas of what to start trying and seeing if it’s making any progress.

Also @Ego you have your calf thing covered, right? That one is pretty simple, just need slow calf raises from a raised surface (stair, weight , stool, whatever) that lets you get the heel / ankle 30-60 degrees below parallel. With the injury, do both legs at once and lean up against the wall or a railing to remove weight from the injured leg. External rotation of the foot will focus on the interior head, internal rotation will focus on the outside head more. Putting the knees over the toes will focus more on the soleus (lower calf). Remove enough weight you can do 25 reps with NO PAIN, do this a 2-3 times today, increasing the intensity when you can without introducing any pain. Shaking the area can and will likely improve healing time (if you want to know more I can find some vids or take a few myself).

Also plugging the Chase Mountains YouTube channel that combines a movement/mobility philosophy with a focus on outdoor adventures:

https://www.youtube.com/@ChaseMountains

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Slevin
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Re: Movement

Post by Slevin »

Western Red Cedar wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:30 pm
Slevin (formerly Blackjack?)
Yeah, @jacob if its simple, maybe i can get these accounts merged somehow to confuse people less, but I don't really care much and don't want to cause an admin headache.

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Slevin
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Re: Movement

Post by Slevin »

Adding to the thread: Injury rehab.

Couple of videos by an acquaintance in the movement world that I really like:

Quick framework for any not super serious injury (1 min vid):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mggfwkx ... nVeziroglu

Full framework overview (30 mins):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s2CpDl ... nVeziroglu

mooretrees
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Re: Movement

Post by mooretrees »

@slevin, really appreciate the thoughtful response. I reread this thread and checked out KOT. I think my hip issue is likely some combination of weak lower back, tight hip flexors and old knee/ankle instabilities due to overuse and surgeries from soccer career.

Looking at the KOT guy, he’s got enough content for free that I think I can choose a few hip strengthening exercises for a few weeks to see if they make any difference. I’m not actually likely to pursue seeing a PT at this point, mainly because it sounds too annoying to try and hustle up an appointment.

I recently had my lower back go out, which knocked me flat out for a few days. So anything to strengthen that area will also be a focus.

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