WL 5 -> 6 MMMG

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ertyu
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Re: WL 5 > 6 MMMG

Post by ertyu »

Who here has written out a web of goals and who has not?

candide
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Re: WL 5 > 6 MMMG

Post by candide »

Yes. Though I should do a revised version now that school teaching is getting more miserable/I am thinking of leaving as early as the end of this year.
Last edited by candide on Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

ertyu
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Re: WL 5 > 6 MMMG

Post by ertyu »

candide wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:50 pm
I'm not an expert in what makes someone WL 6+
Me neither. The way I understand it so far is that up to 5, wog nodes are optimized in isolation whereas 6+ would begin looking at how they're interconnected. Also, and this might not necessarily be the case, but 5 and lower, the goal is be leaner (subtractive) whereas 6+ is additive: add nodes outside the salaryman/supermarket one :lol:

mathiverse
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Re: WL 5 > 6 MMMG

Post by mathiverse »

I've written a few WOGs, but, same as candide, none that are up to date. I'd be down to draw up another one. I've also drawn a lot of the fishbone diagrams for various activities, but I could do more as a part of this group with new activities I'm considering participating in.

Another idea is a deep dive on the WL5 -> WL6 transition related chapters of the ERE book which I'd say are chapter 4: The Renaissance Ideal and chapter 5: Strategies, tactics, and guiding principles.

avalok
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Re: WL 5 > 6 MMMG

Post by avalok »

I am in; I think this is worth giving a shot. We can figure it out as we go.
candide wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:41 am
-- a group study on the yields and flows thread.
-- start case studies on what we want to work on (I'm down for food costs).
-- form a email chain just with members, then report back to the wider group
No. 2 sounds like the best option. It will encourage practice, as suggested, and I reckon it would leave room for us to all leave details out that we do not feel comfortable sharing on the forum.
ertyu wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:08 pm
Who here has written out a web of goals and who has not?
As with candide and mathiverse, I have written a few, but could do with looking at it again. However, I'm less concerned about this as it seems like a WL7 activity, and as I said before I find I do not operate from the framework afterwards. I expect that will change as I progress into and through WL6.

ben2000s
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Re: WL 5 > 6 MMMG

Post by ben2000s »

I'd love to join! I have not written a web of goals yet but would love to.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: WL 5 > 6 MMMG

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

I too will contribute to attempting to write a WoG.

shaz
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Re: WL 5 > 6 MMMG

Post by shaz »

I wrote out a WOG a few years ago but I did it with pen and paper and have no idea where it is.

candide
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Re: WL 5 > 6 MMMG

Post by candide »

ben2000s wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:52 pm
I'd love to join!
Okay, you're in, ben2000s. Updated voting members:

avalok
mathiverse
candide
shaz
ertyu
ben2000s

Looks like we have two motions on the table here.

1) WOG
ertyu asked about web of goals. Enthusiasm for doing one was shared by mathiverse and ben2000s. We also had an offer to help/do one at the same time by AE.

2) Case Study
case study which would isolate a specific skill/node. I had put that to the group with a list of ideas, and avalok seconded the idea.

Also, avalok expressed concern that it was more of an activity suited for WL 7, and that doing the activity in the past did not seem to bring many changes that could be used at the time.

... I tend to agree with that line of reasoning, but as I am trying to play a role here in building group norms which include trust, diversity, and accepting compromises, I'm going to abstain from the voting.

I think we should start having activities that we structure in time with (soft) deadlines and such. So I propose we leave these motions up until midnight Friday, and then Saturday begin efforts to implement. [I see the delay in action as a feature, not a bug in this case. Speed of information can be found in articles and threads -- this is about both syncing a group and giving us time as most of in this group have jobs.]

My understanding of the current vote.

avalok -- case study
mathiverse -- WOG
candide -- abstain
shaz --
ertyu -- WOG (I assume, since you brought it up)
ben2000s -- WOG

Please write in if you want your vote changed.

candide
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Re: WL 5 > 6 MMMG

Post by candide »

In my mind, the time before the vote is finalized can be used to try to change minds. One way to do that would be to start the planning for the activity, really fleshing out what it could involve in the format we are using. Such as, do we have examples of a web of goals. Is there a forum member we could bring in to do a guest post/find something already written at the tutorial style about doing one.

I'm personally vague about the case study idea, but I'd see it as talking about activities where we describe the subtle differences in thought that make us make one decision, rather than another. I think food is a great place to go with this.

Cards on the table: I bet we do one of the activities and then the other. Again, I'm just trying to get us practice processing and making decisions as a group within the group (forum).

ertyu
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Re: WL 5 > 6 MMMG

Post by ertyu »

Working on one doesn't preclude working on the other. From what I hear from people who've already gone through the process, it is iterative: working on the wog means having to put thought into what your nodes are; when you've got your nodes, you fishbone-diagram them etc, and you may discover that some nodes are better off dropped or that other nodes need to be added. Which leads to a new wog.

Just thinking aloud:

I've been observing myself over the past couple of days, noticing the questions I have been asking myself at the back of my mind. For instance, one experiment I am running right now is living without AC as temperatures drop. I am not measuring the reduction in energy use or any cash savings (the cash savings are immaterial because my energy bill is currently subsidized). I am discovering ways this ties together positively with other nodes, e.g. my sleep is better, I feel a bit more empowered, I am forced to move at regular intervals to warm up, etc. But also ways in which it ties together negatively with other nodes - e.g. I also find that the activation energy necessary to get out from under my blankets and do chores around the house is diminished. Low temperature brings about "hibernation" mood.

I have also been thinking that in terms of budget impact, learning to live without AC should not be a priority. Investing and spending money on coffee, baked goods, and take-out (in that order) are much more significant. In addition, no AC at home sometimes means more time spent at the mall Starbucks which has AC on - so obviously, rationally, the impact is minimal and I have bigger fish to fry. From a broad perspective, then, a focus on living without AC might be counterproductive inasmuch as it detracts focus from nodes of higher importance - currently for me, investing.

I am sharing all of this because it seems to me that while I am somewhat thinking about linkages, these are essentially WL4-5 questions. E.g. the monetary impact of consuming energy from the central grid as compared to the monetary impact of my muffin and bibimbap habit are all still within the salaryman/consumer framework. I have said before that because I am still gastarbeiter-ing, my ability to be a producer is limited: being a producer implies building a base of tools and when you change locations every 1-2 years, this is wasteful and impractical. So I need to ask myself about what producer nodes are meaningful for me right now.

So I agree with candide that we should do the activities in order, and maybe even bounce between them. I argue for beginning with a wog because building a wog can highlight important nodes to focus on -- however I don't think the opposite process will necessarily be wrong. I think if we focus on a node, in the process of analyzing it, links to other nodes will naturally suggest themselves: nodes do not exist independently. So I think either approach is good.

mathiverse
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Re: WL 5 > 6 MMMG

Post by mathiverse »

For fleshing out the case study plan, I think examining nodes goes well with drawing fishbone diagrams. Fishbone diagrams are basically ertyu's paragraphs about his observations in picture form. (see chapter 5 of the ERE book and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishikawa_diagram).

Fishbone diagrams can help clarify if a node is a net positive or net negative. They also force you to spell out your highest priority (ie 0th order goal using the language in the ERE book).

shaz
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Re: WL 5 > 6 MMMG

Post by shaz »

I like the idea of working on WOG then examining nodes then revisiting WOG.

candide
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Re: WL 5 > 6 MMMG

Post by candide »

Vote update:

avalok -- case study
mathiverse -- WOG
candide -- abstain
shaz -- WOG
ertyu -- WOG
ben2000s -- WOG

ben2000s
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Re: WL 5 > 6 MMMG

Post by ben2000s »

For web of goals, I am going to use Google drawing docs.

candide
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Re: WL 5 -> 6 MMMG

Post by candide »

Roll Call

Voting members, and a link to their respective journals.

avalok
viewtopic.php?t=11881

mathiverse
viewtopic.php?t=11038

candide
viewtopic.php?t=12483

ertyu
viewtopic.php?t=11044

shaz
viewtopic.php?t=12209

ben2000s
viewtopic.php?t=12590

New members are welcome. Have a journal started, and post that you want to be in the group. Too low of a WL is okay; too high will be asked to give us guidance, but not become voting members.

All forum members are welcome -- and encouraged -- to participate in discussions.

candide
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Re: WL 5 -> 6 MMMG

Post by candide »

Voting has closed.

By 4 votes for, 1 against, and one abstention (4-1-1) the group has voted for the activity of making updated webs of goals. (Multiple members expressed a desire to start here and then go back to nodes for our idea of "case studies").

Does anyone want to lead off with samples/rough drafts? I say we don't give ourselves a rigid timeline or anything like that. Just see how the flow of this goes... what kind of conversations it starts, how many revisions people want to make, etc.
AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:06 pm
I too will contribute to attempting to write a WoG.
The more the merrier. Anyone who want to talk share WoGs or talk WoG theory, please hop aboard!

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: WL 5 -> 6 MMMG

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Great! I'll write one up and share it here. I've been meaning to do this for awhile so this is good accountability.

OutOfTheBlue
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Re: WL 5 -> 6 MMMG

Post by OutOfTheBlue »

candide wrote:
Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:32 am
Roll Call

[...]
New members are welcome. Have a journal started, and post that you want to be in the group. Too low of a WL is okay; too high will be asked to give us guidance, but not become voting members.

All forum members are welcome -- and encouraged -- to participate in discussions.
Had my doubts but this really welcoming post won me over. Thank you, Candide!

I would like to join and try my hand at a WoG too.

Not sure about the WL.

I find myself often thinking in terms of homeotelicity/eterotelicity and making connections as per the ERE book.

Jacob's theory vs practice thread offered insight about the need for a consolidation phase at this time, focussing more on the praxis/implementation/skills part, which is a bit lagging, while at the theory level continuing to work towards building a more articulated systems thinking and seeing how to best integrate parts to a coherent whole.

I saw the book recommendation for WL 6 is YMOL. Could that make for an interesting re-read at this point, along with the other resources/threads?
jacob wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:27 pm
Effectively, it means giving up watching TV/youtube.
This resonates, and is the kind of jump in thought that keeps drawing me in.

Putting in the upskilling hours involves giving up too passive/eterotelic endeavors and becoming increasingly ruthless on what you spend your precious time on (not only from an efficiency perspective, but also from a qualitative one). This has already started with the WL5 shift towards a producer mindset, but I think is generalized at later stages.

ertyu
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Re: WL 5 -> 6 MMMG

Post by ertyu »

I want to use making a wog as an occasion to learn how to use one of the linked notetaker apps which I learned about on this forum.

ETA: spent some of today figuring out the software and trying to graph a web of ideas (not necessarily an ERE wog). I had the interesting realization that it doesn't matter what one's starting point is, because the web is a web, you start at one node and the others eventually roll along.

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