Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Anything to do with the traditional world of get a degree, get a job as well as its alternatives
zbigi
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by zbigi »

Humanofearth wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:18 am
Contribute to something meaningful.
Some of my artist programmer friends are having good luck with creating nfts and selling those.

ben2000s
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by ben2000s »

I am a software engineer. A requirement to be a software engineer is to love it. I suggest you first determine your level of passion and then be concerned with the labor market. Also, look at the labor markets for computer security, IOT, and ML/AI engineering. Software engineers with a few years of experience can get jobs in those markets.

arbrk
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by arbrk »

Ben2000s, I do not think it is a requirement of being a software engineer is to love it. I used to be a high school teacher and loved that, but I wanted more money, so I became a software engineer. I don't love it and have no natural talent for it. I had fun doing it in grad school, but that was mainly because I had friends in grad school I enjoyed hanging out with and the professors were engaging and passionate. There is nothing I inherently like about it and I would never do it for free. I completed grad school successfully and I have been working at a FAANG for three years. I just see work as a way to sell my time to the highest bidder. And they're paying me more to be a mediocre software engineer than a great teacher.

I will say, most people have a lower tolerance for doing things they don't like and aren't good at than me. It is a huge ego hit to be doing something you are bad at and have no natural talent for. You have to accept that it is not a part of your identity and it's just something you are doing for money, like if you were waiting tables or something like that. And you have to not be bothered by being worse at it than other people, which is something that is hard for a lot of people.

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conwy
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by conwy »

As a programmer for ~20 years now, various languages/stacks/businesses, I think it's still valuable and I don't see its value diminishing.

I've been freaked out so many times by so many dire predictions...
* 1990s - people said programmers were nerds/dorks and couldn't earn much without good social skills. And yet this was the era when Oracle and Microsoft grew massively and Apple made massive strides and Linux was born, and pretty much all these technologies were founded by nerds/dorks/weirdos.
* 2000s - people said immigrants would take jobs and drive down the pay
* 2010s - people said all the jobs would be offshored to India, China, etc.
* 2020s - people say AI will replace programmers

Yet I continue to pick up work and my pay continues to rise.

I recently was given notice at my current contract. Work mates were very pessimistic, lots of comments of "the job market's not looking too good" and "you'd better have a plan B". I made a few phone-calls and within hours was having chats with hiring managers and within days was attending interviews.

So sorry but just I don't buy all the pessimism. I think it's just typical human anxious monkey-brain thinking, always anticipating the worst possible scenario. Managers and business owners love it of course - amidst all the fear and anxiety they can hire experienced people at lower rates and bargain them down. But it's only a temporary discount. Eventually and long-term, demand continues to rise and in a competitive environment, businesses are forced to invest properly in talent, and so our salaries/rates continue to rise.

So yes, programming is still a valuable skill to learn and I expect it to be valuable and well remunerated for years if not decades to come. If anything, AI will just create more programmer jobs (but some idiots will call it "prompt engineering" according to the modern fashion).

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Viktor K
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by Viktor K »

I am a software engineer. Do not love it. Actually I pretty much hate it, and the field is so sedentary. And very capitalist hell which I also hate. But I feel a little better about it twice a month.

Haven't written code by hand in a while, just telling ChatGPT (i.e. correcting it and clarifying) how to do my job when it gets something wrong.

Tried to use it to write the majority of a console app for one of my hobbies, since I don't love programming. Fed it rules for a system that is based on modified chance and wanted it to make a program for it. It couldn't finish the program or keep it consistent. Could be something that goes away as the token limit grows. I think it works better on a boilerplate & single function scope troubleshooting/writing.

Averaging about ~15 hours per week remotely.

guitarplayer
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by guitarplayer »

Viktor K wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2023 11:17 am
Actually I pretty much hate it, and the field is so sedentary.
I don't know @Viktor K, maybe this is my personal perception of how hate feels or folk mean something else than I by this word. But if I were in your shoes and hated it, I would go back to work in the grocery store or to teaching abroad in literally no time. But yes, I must have a peculiar notion of the emotion.

Unlike in the past, I now get to program at work and this thread was somewhat instrumental in my run-up to this point. I think it is valuable, also fortunate enough to enjoy it (for now)!

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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by jacob »

jacob wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:54 am
What's equally interesting is whether having a programmer's mind makes some processes or concepts harder to understand or execute?
I'm still interested in this one.

Thinking algorithmically is as different from thinking analytically is as different from thinking synthetically as "processing" logically is from "processing" emotionally.

For example, much of standard education is dedicated to logical analysis (math101) and emotional synthesis (lit101). This leaves gaping holes in the standard education.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

My opinion is basically identical to @Viktor K. If I never look at another computer again in my life, it will be too soon. Used to love coding, got all love of it drained out of me by about year three. The very last thing I want to do with any of my free time is think about computers. Computer science could still be fascinating, but software engineering is not most certainly not because about 90% of it is corporate nonsense.

Still it's hard to walk away from working 15hr/week remotely for the phat pay. Complaining about it feels like the epitome of 1st world problems.

mathiverse
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by mathiverse »

+1 to not really enjoying being a software engineer after a while despite finding programming (a small subset of the jobs I had) pretty fun.

Fortunately for other people, some people find the job enjoyable. I wish I had been so lucky, but I still am grateful I ended up in the field for a while and earned FU money that may turn into FI money.

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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by guitarplayer »

jacob wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2023 3:13 pm
And do you equal 'thinking algorithmically' to 'having a programmer's mind'?

If so, it seems clear that operating solely in a world of instructions obscures insight.

It is an entertaining exercise (most of them are) to think of the range of possibilities across what you've spelled out above there.
- I think that 'emoting algorithmically' would be a rather dry well.
- You will find emoting analytically and synthetically both in novels. The former, maybe for example in some Eastern European ones, think 'Lolita' or 'A minor apocalypse'. For the latter, I'd say perhaps 'Birdy' and 'Al' by William Wharton.
- When I was writing my psych MA dissertation on types but was not sure because it was so different from what most people were doing (p-tests), my supervisor pointed out that there are two types of research, one to do with analysis and other with synthesis and doing a synthesis sort of piece was just a matter of choice.
- I think there would be a hierarchy synthetic>analytical>algorithmic, or a rough sequence like that (algorithmic->analytical->synthetic). Most often and for something fairly well established. For new stuff it often ends up being a bundle.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

It seems like it is kind of the job of the Systems Analyst to reduce the various components of the problem/project at hand to the level that they can be handled with "just" algorithmic thinking" by the Programmers. Then there is also the Project Manager who has to take real world considerations such as humans requiring emotional motivation into account.

I think project management software might be a good tool for exploring the boundary between ERE1 and ERE2, because it really makes it clear that you must be working on a pretty basic project if the Project Manager is also the only human resource you have to schedule. OTOH, in theory, you could go infinitely deep with Systems Analysis and Skills such as Programmer/Electrician/Chef/etc. without crossing over the boundary between ERE1 and ERE2.

In the U.S., primary math is now taught (in part) by early exposure to concepts such as "strategy." For instance, third graders might be challenged to add two 3 digit numbers without access to pencil and paper, and then share their results (whether right or wrong) and methods "strategies" for achieving those results. It's less efficient than simply learning "the standard algorithm" by rote, but it has the advantage of leaving their minds more open to possibilities. Knowing "why" any given algorithm works is usually much more advanced or indicative of possession of "number sense" than knowing "how" or "when" to utilize it. There are actually quite a few adults who don't quite have a feel for patterns as simple as 8 + 3= 11 therefore 48 + 3 =?

zbigi
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by zbigi »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:08 am
It seems like it is kind of the job of the Systems Analyst
FWIW System Analyst's job has been mostly dead in the industry for some time now. When I was starting 20 years ago, they were ubiquitous, but then Agile happened, and there's no SA in any of the popular Agile frameworks. Similarly, the Project Manager position (in software development) is largely a thing of the past. These two were merged into one Product Owner role, resulting in a person that does both in a rather superficial way (due to lack of time), and relying on the team members (programmers) to fill in the blanks in a major way. That is intentional, as one of the core tenets of the whole Agile movement was to empower the devs.

Scott 2
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by Scott 2 »

Now that I'm out, watching the same duties shift to new titles is comical. My old company adopted the SAFE scaled agile framework. One of the roles is called "Release Train Engineer"
The Release Train Engineer (RTE) is a servant leader and ART coach who facilitates ART events and processes, and supports teams in delivering value. They communicate with stakeholders, escalate impediments, help manage risk, and drive relentless improvement. Although Agile Release Trains (ARTs) are composed of self-organizing and self-managing teams, these trains cannot drive or steer themselves. That is the responsibility of the RTE, who facilitates most effectively as a servant leader. They have a solid grasp of how to scale Lean and Agile practices and understand the unique opportunities and challenges of aligning and facilitating an ART (team-of-Agile Teams).
Funny, that's what I did as a project manager. And as a business analyst before that. And you know, when I was a release manager...

There's money to be made in change. The new boss is usually about the same. But the working programmer has enthusiastically buy in.

The core skills don't change. Nor does the required trade off between being a specialist vs. a generalist. But change all the names and $$$$$.

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Slevin
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by Slevin »

I'm just chiming in to offer a counterpoint where I definitely find there are a subset of programming jobs that offer good and interesting work. And that they generally come from companies focused on doing interesting things, who pay good but not insanely (as they know their engineers value the deep interesting work as part of the compensation package and don't need to pay top tier wages) and ones whose names are not necessarily known and yelled from the rooftops. These companies are the ones whose engineers tend to stick around for 10+ years, and so tend to hire infrequently or mostly hire juniors and train them up. They still have problems and major internal issues, but people feeling like zombies or just going through the motions is not generally part of that. Usually they just have really difficult interesting problems that people want to work on.

IMO Optimizing for pay generally shifts you into the paths of utter bullshit jobs as competition goes up, people self justifying themselves as useful and important because they got a job at X company goes up, and companies know the jobs are good, so they can offer a worse experience overall to keep employees working longer hours, etc.

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Sclass
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by Sclass »

I just spoke to an old friend in Santa Clara last night. He said new hires with no experience out of college are being offered $200-$300K at a big tech competitor. He complained it’s sucking up all the new grads. And he cannot get this offer at 58. As we speak there is some kind of IT job implosion happening but he says what flows out is flowing right back in largely driven by AI investments.

It sounded really good. Almost too good to be true. I’d heard the salary leak from Google a month ago saying their median sw engineer was making $250K approximately…I don’t recall the exact figure but it sounded very high for a young employee. But then again isn’t $250k chump change in Mountain View, CA?

So my knee jerk reaction is yes I think this is worth it. The fact that somebody fresh out of school in CS can make 8x more money than somebody with a fun degree for taking four semesters of boring data structures and algorithms classes seems like a pretty good deal.

But I slept on it. I remember going to work during the dot com bubble and getting an eye popping paycheck. And when I play it back…25 years now, none of my peers got rich from this. Somehow the game was just designed to look great but things just didn’t work out great. High salaries went sideways. Cost of living was very high. We got old. In tech old is bad. It’s not like law where an old barrister is highly respected. You’re an old technologist.

The salaries in Silicon Valley are always high to attract workers to the expensive environment. But unless you get the right equity package the salary alone doesn’t make you that rich after all your expenses. You buy the home. Your wife gets pregnant. When she goes back to work you need daycare. Then the little kids become big kids and you need college tuition. All the while you’re coding away becoming the old guy at the office. My fifty something friends are starting to look pretty washed up. Or they cannot get a new lower management job like in their fossilized corner of the industry. They’re always looking when their industry is dying so seniority and experience is actually a liability. They look like a bunch of war refugees trying to migrate to greener pastures.

So I dunno. Is it worth it? Not when I look past the first fifteen years. It starts out looking amazing. I’m sure these kids nailing $250k offers are excited about the future.

I’ve been retired over a decade now. I’m an outsider looking in. Young guys chime in. I am short real data.

But it looks the same. Relatively speaking. It’s just the numbers have all inflated up but the blue plate special seems to be pretty much the same serving. Or a little worse.

It’s like there is this inflation among the haves and its hell on the have nots. But after a decade the haves don’t really have that much. The have nots have zero or negative. Only a few flukes get rich like my friends at Apple, Uber and VM Ware to name a few. The rest are a sad bunch of fifty something guys trying to cling to fading prospects.

At the end of the day we were just a bunch of boring old engineers which is kind of what we started out as. Where was the value add? Young -> old?

Just my random thoughts on the industry. It’s really strange in Silicon Valley. The old people I know are poor retirees living on fixed incomes while living in $3-$4M homes. Really. They cannot even afford to reroof or get dental implants. Yet they are “millionaires”. The ones still working are trying to hit $1.8M to feel good about retiring. This is their IT endgame.

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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by Scott 2 »

You can get an idea of big tech comp from the levels.fyi site. I have mulled the path over and came to some conclusions:

1. Companies that pay well, tend to be in extractive industries. Using network effects to create a monopoly that siphons global wealth. Lanier's book Who Owns The Future describes this really well.

2. They are hiring for potential, seeking the top X% of candidates. Very competitive.

3. The combination will draw a specific type of person, that one may not prefer.

4. Same for culture.

5. If I wanted to work full time again, there's a chance I'd hire someone to navigate me through their recruiting pipeline. What's $10k for a return like that?


IMO - in that sphere, programming is a tangential skill. Lack of it can rule you out, but it doesn't put you in. The value comes from assimilation. It changes you as a person. Very hard to undo.


When I run head first into the supporting economies, I still think about it. I ran across a restaurant selling 12oz bottles of juice for $10 yesterday. Like WTF. But when you have tech money, who cares? Grab the bottle and go. It lends an ease to life, even as it traps you.

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Sclass
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by Sclass »

@Scott2 thanks for the link. That was an eye opening five minutes. :o

I recall meeting guys from the 1970s minicomputer boom. They had a lot of cautionary tales for me by 1995. History seems to repeat itself. Likely because the system is driven by the pursuit of shareholder value no matter what era.

That being said I cannot be that negative. My short tech career seeded my ER. I really hated the SV game but in all honestly I wouldn’t be lying here doing nothing if I hadn’t made that original seed capital. It looks like a small sum compared to my overall NW. It’s so small it looks insignificant. However the stock gains wouldn’t have happened without the tiny seeds provided by employment.

While coding was a time consuming part of the job, computational algorithms, circuit design, design for test, design for manufacturing, design for support, system architecture, market analysis and industrial design were the differentiators that got me paid. It was as you said code was a part of the deal but not the whole enchilada. Like swinging a hammer in home building - it doesn’t build a house but you better know how to do it or no house.

I’ll have to look up that Jerome Lanier reference. I love his essays and his book “you are not a gadget”. I wish he’d written that stuff before I started out. Good stuff.

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unemployable
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by unemployable »

Sclass wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2023 8:11 am
Just my random thoughts on the industry. It’s really strange in Silicon Valley. The old people I know are poor retirees living on fixed incomes while living in $3-$4M homes. Really. They cannot even afford to reroof or get dental implants. Yet they are “millionaires”. The ones still working are trying to hit $1.8M to feel good about retiring. This is their IT endgame.
I've sure you've written about this at some point, but why don't they sell and move pretty much anywhere else? Can they not retire? Have they plundered their home equity along the way? Are they brainwashed into thinking the Valley is utopia? Can they not pay the prospective tax bill I'm certain they've been voting for all this time?

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Slevin
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by Slevin »

unemployable wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2023 4:55 pm
I've sure you've written about this at some point, but why don't they sell and move pretty much anywhere else? Can they not retire? Have they plundered their home equity along the way? Are they brainwashed into thinking the Valley is utopia? Can they not pay the prospective tax bill I'm certain they've been voting for all this time?
As maybe the only one on the forum who actually hangs out with old people in SV on a semi-regular basis (a couple times per month), I can sort of answer (obviously not for @sclass's direct friends).

First thing, most of these people love SV, they moved there in the 70s or 80s and have been there since. Telling them to move now, because they could live like kings elsewhere is like telling any old person who loves an area to get up and move out (but with more upside). Older people tend more to hate new things, and moving across state boundaries is a scary thing to most young people even (obviously not you @unemployable). Now imagine trying to make that change much later in life, when everyone you know lives nearby, etc. Building up a whole new life of social connections, restaurants, new streets, new weather, etc, is something not a lot of people want to do.

Secondly, They live in California, which up until very very recently, has had property tax laws which incentivize not moving, ever. This is because property tax is only allowed to go up 1% per year, and is taxed around roughly 1% of the home's value upon purchase. So these people who bought homes in the 70s (and paid $40k for that now $4m house) pay literal peanuts in taxes (I'm talking only six or seven hundred dollars per year for their $4mm house). There is not rent in any part of this country for $600 / year. This valuation gets broken if you do major renovations, where the house value is re-adjusted and you end up paying more taxes, so there is also hilarious incentive to live in a very expensive old house that has either been renovated without any permits, or live in a very expensive old house that is kind of falling apart.

Now, the tax laws have changes so that you can move around a couple of times if you are old enough, and just transfer the taxes along with you. If you sell your California house and move elsewhere out of state though, I think this just gets thrown in the garbage can. Even if they would never move back to CA, throwing away your sweet tax break of ~$39400 per year probably hurts, and most people hate losing really great things they have more than possibly getting other good things.

As to the not being able to fix the roof, yeah a lot of these people are normal folk that just happen to be "rich" because of the house valuation which was a right place right time sort of situation, but now live on fixed incomes, etc, and California is kind of really expensive when it comes to the necessities. So imagine they generally didn't save much their whole lives, and are living off SS plus a bit of fixed income from a pension or something like that. Dropping the 20-40k they are gonna be quoted on a basic-no-frills roof replacement is a big deal.

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Sclass
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Re: Is programming still a valuable skill to learn?

Post by Sclass »

Yeah that’s pretty much it. They don’t want to sell. They are in love with the Valley. To them it’s the best of all possible worlds. They always say the same thing, “if I sell where would I go?”

It’s actually disturbing because it’s like this mass brainwashing.

I just brought it up because these were my friends who fought hard and sacrificed to be there. They got their homes. They held tech careers down long after their good til date. But they seem to be in a funny spot where they don’t have enough cash. They are also really resentful of their new young rich neighbors who are snapping up the homes next door. Odd because that drives their real estate boom…but I guess it isn’t perfect. Somehow they’re disturbed by the young Tesla driving rich people who buy the home across the street and tear it down to build a Mac mansion.

At the same time they’re smug about owning their expensive homes. Maybe if they sell they lose the prop.

I don’t really get it. I think @Slevin is pretty close.

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