Ego's Journal

Where are you and where are you going?
shaz
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by shaz »

I don't think I have ever witnessed small-apartment-binge-purge. I'm much more familiar with rural-barn-hoarding-disorder. In the process of reducing my possessions, I listed 2 broken shovel handles for free and had multiple people fighting over them, presumably to add to a pile in a poorly-lit corner of their barn. Although now that I think about it, I do remember using Perrier to wash my bike because I won it as a prime and didn't have anywhere to store it.

Congratulations on all the free food. Free food just tastes better than not-free food.

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fiby41
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by fiby41 »

Perhaps the person didn't like the taste of the drinks.

The pie has my mouth watering although I already had breakfast.
Free food just tastes better than not-free food.
There are quips in Marathi that echo this sentiment which rhyme but don't translate well, having the meaning 'that [food] which is free is nutritious' and "wherever there is free stuff to be found, I appear as if conjured out of thin air."

guitarplayer
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by guitarplayer »

Man, I would really like to have your job. I researched this for the UK but it looks like the places have some sort of different business model. @shaz, free food does taste better!

Meanwhile, DW discovered an app where people go do supermarket to take 'best before' and 'use by' food and then post it on the network to distribute. So far we got mushrooms, avocadoes, lots of greens, on Tuesday I am going to pick up some teas and mustard leaves. Perpetual amount of baked goods there at all times. More hassle to go to these places, but hey movement=feeling alive and we get to learn about different areas in the neighbourhood.

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Ego
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by Ego »

Mrs. Ego saw this last night and corrected me. She was not happy. Apparently this is the second time she has corrected me, but somehow it did not register the first time.

The crusts I purchased from my used food friend are for cheese cake, which she also makes. She actually bought the pie crust at Grocery Outlet (or, as @theanimal family lovingly calls it, GrossOut). So the pie wasn't as inexpensive as I thought, though the peaches and apples were discards.

She told me I have to work on my listening skills.

theanimal
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by theanimal »

I read your original post and the addendum to Mrs. Animal. Her immediate response after the last line, "Hm, sounds like you guys have something in common." :lol:

Cool finds as always.

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Ego
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by Ego »

@theanimal, our talking ratio is (1 Ego)/(3 Mrs. Ego) so the problem is inevitable. Each of us has come up with strategies to deal with the difference.

Every once in a while I will open the door to the apartment and hear her chattering in the kitchen. Once, a while ago, I asked, "Who are you talking to?"

She laughed and said, "I'm talking to you. We were having such a nice conversation until you came in and interrupted. You gave me a compliment on my outfit and just now you were asking about how I was feeling this morning."

I am convinced that most of the conversations I miss are this type.

In other news, the elastic on my old running headlamp was stretched to the point where I had to pull it so tight that it gave me headaches. It also was dirty. So I created a saved search on Mercari for a Petzl Iko Core and eventually someone listed one for 50% off retail. It was brand new. I used the balance earned on Mercari from selling trash. Innovative design, unlike anything else. Brighter. Super lightweight. No fabric headband to get stinky. It does not get hot. I have had it for a few weeks and really like it.

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Ego
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by Ego »

My used-food friend saved me these packages of whole wheat tortillas and charged me $1 for eight packages. I told him I should pay more but he insisted, saying he got them for free with a pallet and needed to get rid of them. Tortillas freeze well.

Image

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Ego
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by Ego »

More used food. Mrs. Ego said that I have now passed the point of being ridiculous.

He showed up with a case of 24 of this whole oat cereal and charged me 4x$1. With plain oatmeal costing more than $1 a pound in 50lb bags, I figured 16 cents a pound for this oat cereal is okay even though it has a little sugar. Also, he threw in a box of veggie burgers. Not vegan but hard to beat free. Strangely, they do not need to be refrigerated. Hum

Image
Image

theanimal
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by theanimal »

Ego wrote:
Sat Dec 17, 2022 9:04 am
It is fragile to be dependent and have no choice but to do what others demand.
It is equally fragile to be independent and have to do nothing.

Back in the early 2000s we decided our solution. Never be fully dependent. Never be fully independent. Never retire. Always have something that we have to do. Always have ten things we want to do.

In other words, make sure my life is full of real things competing for my time and attention rather than pastimes.
Most on here and those pursuing FI will go from one end of the spectrum to the other. Complete dependence through wage slavery to complete independence with portfolio of assets. The large quantity of savings and ensuing feeling of independence from a financial spectrum often kills the desire and even seemingly the ability to be dependent on others. You and Mrs. Ego do not spend much, have a handful of income sources and savings. I imagine theoretically you are in a position where you would be able to operate independently if that is what you chose. But you don't, taking on roles as caretakers of Millennial Towers, various jobs, building community at the swap meets etc.

How do you approach the idea of dependence/not being fully independent in your life? What do you do to maintain that mindset while operating from a very strong financial position?

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Lemur
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by Lemur »

Oh this is interesting. I was just thinking about this...

@theanimal: I can't answer for Ego but I think the key here might be differentiating between dependence and subordination. For example, in societies without money, it was natural for humans to be dependent on one another, or indebted, from a social perspective (how we build social bonds and social capital). An example: Joe just killed a deer and since John's hunt was not successful that evening, Joe did not mind sharing the spoils with John's family so no one went hungry. In gratitude, and an unwritten return, John's family brought Joe some furs the next morning. This gift return did not necessarily have to be an equivalent of the deer.

I would say being slightly dependent on one another in a community is + points for happiness. It is in our nature. But FIRE humans veer off this path and only think of financial capital. They're never subordinate to anyone, which is fine, but due to the lack of social dependence, they can also fall into traps of isolation, lacking meaning, and community.

So being both financially independent, and sometimes socially dependent, someone like Ego can get the best of both worlds - natural social bonds and enough financial capital to never be subjugated to subordination.

ETA: Consider one could have the assets to cover themselves at 3/4% SWR, but then move into a transition town. Dependence in living but now with the ability to walk away. Though I do wonder if the walk away ability somehow dampens the true dependence. Anyway it’s all an interdependence balance based on one’s personality quirks and preferences.

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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by theanimal »

Thanks for the clarification, Lemur. That latter point is exactly what I am talking about. In pursuing freedom from bound subordination, it appears that many remove the instances where they are dependent on others as well. Going from one extreme to the other and throwing out the baby with the bathwater so to speak. Maintaining that slight social dependence, seems challenging for those who pursue FI, for FI's sake, as you alluded to and we have seen the results of those who forgo that dependence in postings on this board as well as others. I see Semi-ERE as an example of a similar style that operates on a very similar premise, allowing one to operate from a position of financial strength, but still requires interactions with the world at large (and hence some dependence).

I am curious if there is a specific approach Ego takes to cultivating that dependence or if it is more of a deliberate attitude.

white belt
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by white belt »

Ego wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:41 pm
One of the potlucks was at the home of a friend from the swap meet who specializes in vintage designer apparel. To the rest of the world she appears to be a great success in the fashion industry, which she is, but her customers and friends would not imagine her digging through piles of used clothing as I know her. Mrs. Ego quietly told her the story of the pie and mentioned our grocery overstock friend. She responded, "You mean the guy who sells used food." We all laughed as she pointed out things at the party she picked up from a different "used food" vendor.
Whenever someone compliments an article of clothing that I got from a thrift store, I jokingly reply "Yeah I got it for cheap because someone died in it." Obviously it's unlikely that someone actually died in clothes that show up at thriftstores, but I suppose it's not impossible so you never know.

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Ego
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by Ego »

theanimal wrote:
Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:16 pm
I am curious if there is a specific approach Ego takes to cultivating that dependence or if it is more of a deliberate attitude.
Lemur got it. This is from one of the relationship threads from eight years ago...
Ego wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:33 pm
The idea of early retirement tends to appeal to those who have great respect for self sufficiency. While self sufficiency and independence are important, they are only halfway to the real savory part of a good life that comes after the long journey from dependence to independence and then on to interdependence.
and
Ego wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:26 am
It comes down to those stages of maturity... dependent > independent > interdependent. I'd imagine that there are some few rare people who are able to move from independent individuals to interdependence without catalyzing events. We've come to realize that contrived challenges bond us together in preparation for those inevitable times when the real world catapults a bomb into our world. In the end, that bond is the most valuable thing we have.
Moderately busy people, regardless of their financial condition, who are engaged in things that strengthen interdependence generally avoid creating problems for themselves. I suspect you could tell me a lot more about this phenomenon. New parents frequently talk about how it is simultaneously the hardest and most rewarding thing they've ever done. On the other hand, human beings with little to occupy their minds often generate problems to distract themselves from the.... nothing.

There is that wonderful quote from Theodore Dalrymple who served for many years as a prison physician and psychiatrist. "Misery increases to meet the means available for its alleviation." For many, FIRE provides the means.

As I mentioned to you in persons, Mrs. Ego and I refused a very large inheritance. We are cultivating the need to be productive. Who knows, maybe some day we will regret it. My guess is we will not. I sure wish it were possible to run life simulations. But that isn't possible, so we chose modest strength inducing challenges over problem-solving wealth.

See also:

Image

So, yeah, I believe we have a deliberate attitude to cultivate interdependence. We also love edge interfaces even though they can be uncomfortable.

I don't want to give the impression that we are incredibly consistent with this. There are days and weeks where I choose the easy over the challenging. But when the big life changing decisions are being made, these ideas are at the forefront.

guitarplayer
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by guitarplayer »

Living at the edge seen with new eyes yet again, forgetfulness can be a virtue! Thank you.

jacob
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by jacob »

I'm curious to which degree Ego (and his "design") serves as a hub of interdependence with people who equally interdependent or perhaps less interdependent and more dependent or independent. LMK if this question is obvious or needs more explanation? I mean there's a difference between a network of interdependent people with connections everywhere (this is highly flexible and resilient)... and being the hub that connects dependent people with each other (the trader-role) which is robust insofar the hub survives but otherwise fragile.

I'm asking along the lines of this book: https://www.amazon.com/Linked-Everythin ... 0465085733

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Ego
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by Ego »

@jacob, the answer would be both. I try to foster networks by connecting people who have an interdependent mindset but I must first begin the process as a hub, like this....
Ego wrote:
Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:16 pm
I also own a small business that relies on others to bring me merchandise. I get a great deal of pleasure from fostering interdependent relationships (like the pelaton in cycling) and am constantly working to build a network of suppliers (friends) with whom I am interdependent. Similar to mutualism or symbiosis in biology and ecology. There are times when it is tempting to take advantage of the ignorance of those people (to be parasitic) but I would undermine my ultimate goal. So I have no choice but to be the first to introduce the concept of interdependence to our relationship. Some take to it. Some initially resist. The moment I pay them double their asking price for something and explain the value, they immediately get the concept and our relationship is changed from competitors to cooperators. We may still differ on our opinions of the value of something, but we know beyond doubt that neither of us will take advantage of the other's weakness.
Once they get the concept, I can introduce them to one another. I have had some great success with these introductions.

ETA, I must also be willing to dish out consequences when someone acts against the unspoken agreement. There must be a price to pay for defection.

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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by jacob »

@Ego - Righty-o. I've been using the same strategy to pursue the intangible merchandise of ideas and concepts and tried to make similar connections between subcultures and *isms. However, paying double in terms of ideas is somewhat harder than paying double in terms of dollars for stuff because it also requires a long process of explaining why an idea is valuable to someone who might not see the relevance before they're ready to personally experience it. After someone finally sees the value, it's pretty easy, though.

Hummm ... so I surmise you're optimally dialed into creating concrete interdependence where the mass of humanity actually is. Whereas, I'm pushing for a kind of interdependence (a system or paradigm) for where humanity could possibly end up being [beyond paying and pricing] but doesn't translate into price.

Navigating the creation such connections can be very frustrating though. I'm continuopusly looking for interdependence between humans who immediately get the concept of systemic consequences. But that's mostly theory at this point because so few see beyond their own interests. Alternatively I've wondered whether interdependent (systemic connections) ideas are better demonstrated in practice or by theory.

TBH, it depends on who is looking and therein lies the problem. Personally, I've been going back and forth.

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Ego
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by Ego »

jacob wrote:
Tue Dec 20, 2022 12:49 pm

Hummm ... so I surmise you're optimally dialed into creating concrete interdependence where the mass of humanity actually is. Whereas, I'm pushing for a kind of interdependence (a system or paradigm) for where humanity could possibly end up being [beyond paying and pricing] but doesn't translate into price.

Navigating the creation such connections can be very frustrating though. I'm continuopusly looking for interdependence between humans who immediately get the concept of systemic consequences. But that's mostly theory at this point because so few see beyond their own interests. Alternatively I've wondered whether interdependent (systemic connections) ideas are better demonstrated in practice or by theory.
Yeah, I am buying from them at the present moment. You are selling ideas to future-them. It is much easier to make inducements to interdependence when buying than it is when selling. It is easier to buy and sell things than it is to sell ideas, and it is much easier to appeal to the current person than future-them.

There are large, successful examples where people have overcome these challenges. No need to remake the wheel. Though I suspect the ends-justifying-means calculation is a bitter pill.

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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by black_son_of_gray »

Great discussion! Two comments:

1. Regarding @Ego's interdependence strategy: I'm reminded of the various basic "game" structures of game theory (e.g. prisoner's dilemma). Can't remember exactly where I read it, but apparently for many basic games the 'optimal' strategy is something like "always be generous and kind and friendly when entering a new relationship, and then reciprocate the response." So if you start off generous and it is returned...BAM, you're well on your way to a "better than sum of parts" relationship. If you are cheated, you take the loss, cut it off immediately, and move on to another opportunity. It just now dawned on me how well this lines up with Cipolla's laws of human stupidity, how it pushes you into the "intelligent" quadrant, limits the harm from "bandits", keeps you from becoming "helpless", and minimizes "stupidity" to the extent possible. But crucially, the more you cultivate an "intelligent" sphere of actors around you, the more likely they are to introduce you to other "intelligent" actors - a benevolent bootstrapping. Love it!

2. Regarding the rejection of inheritance: Reminds me of the Buffett inheritance rule of (paraphrasing) "enough so that you can do anything you want, but not enough to do nothing." I'm strongly of this mindset. Several years ago I ended up writing a long-winded post on my journal where I laid out my thinking about how "because the universe is full of complexly-interacting moving parts (i.e. three-body problem) and uncertainty increases with projection into the future until planning becomes somewhat meaningless beyond say 5-10 years." Adopting that mindset pretty much killed all interest in accumulating over ~10+ years expenses (and basically why I dropped out of FIRE-related discussions altogether), especially in the context of "I'm going to continue doing X because it allows me to accumulate $$ at a fast rate." @ego's "stay hungry, participate in the complexly-interacting moving parts, always be cultivating" mindset is exactly the direction where I want to point my ship. A conscious decision to participate in life as an "infinite game" (JP Carse). To that end, I think running a local small business is a great way to do that: requires skin in the game, requires building and maintaining relationships, requires staying up-to-date.

Western Red Cedar
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Re: Ego's Journal

Post by Western Red Cedar »

Ego wrote:
Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:16 pm
I also own a small business that relies on others to bring me merchandise. I get a great deal of pleasure from fostering interdependent relationships (like the pelaton in cycling) and am constantly working to build a network of suppliers (friends) with whom I am interdependent. Similar to mutualism or symbiosis in biology and ecology. There are times when it is tempting to take advantage of the ignorance of those people (to be parasitic) but I would undermine my ultimate goal. So I have no choice but to be the first to introduce the concept of interdependence to our relationship. Some take to it. Some initially resist. The moment I pay them double their asking price for something and explain the value, they immediately get the concept and our relationship is changed from competitors to cooperators. We may still differ on our opinions of the value of something, but we know beyond doubt that neither of us will take advantage of the other's weakness.
Sounds a lot like a traditional approach to being a good businessman. Integrity and relationships go a long way in different facets of life.

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