Examples of ERE2 Lifestyles (or rather, holons?)

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
AxelHeyst
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Examples of ERE2 Lifestyles (or rather, holons?)

Post by AxelHeyst »

[After some discussion, I edited the title to include the thing about holons. This is a sufficient article on what a holon is. The idea is, if ERE2 is just What Happens when enough ERE1 WoGs tie together, maybe ERE2 life doesn't feel that different from ERE1 life, because the emergent ERE2 stuff is happening at the level of the group holon. See this post for thoughts on that.]

This is somewhat like the "Life is a daring adventure" thread, but with the emphasis on finding examples of, and discussing, what an ere2.0 lifestyle would look like.

There are very few individuals at WL8+, so inspiration is very difficult to come by. Maybe the best we can do is seek out vignettes and clips of different elements. This challenge something like how to write/design a vision for something you've never seen an example of? The CCCCCC model breaks down when there's nothing to copy in the first place. and the Vision*Dissatisfaction*Plan=Change formula becomes difficult without that Vision piece being strong.

There are a lot of high WL people whose lifestyles are on the fringe and maybe somewhat illegal. ERE2.0 is about more than just individually escaping the System, though, so this isn't just a 'post examples of people with insanely low expenses' thread. What does a lifestyle look like that is actually scalable and palatable, that could become a new paradigm in a way that rural tiny house dumpster diving can't? A lifestyle that we can imagine could become a new mainstream?

Is there a pattern language for WL9+? How much do aesthetics and 'look' matter, and is that a productive direction to spend some effort in? Are there lessons to be learned from the tiny house movement, which relies heavily for its influence on the beautiful minimal design of their spaces?
Last edited by AxelHeyst on Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

RoamingFrancis
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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by RoamingFrancis »

+1 to prioritizing scalability.
Also +1 to integrating community more intentionally than is done in ERE 1.0

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C40
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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by C40 »

What is ERE2.0?

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by jacob »

C40 wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:34 am
What is ERE2.0?
"Emergent Renaissance Ecology." as in what happens or could happen on a scale that's larger than an individual/family if the density of ERE1 (Early Retirement Extreme) was large enough. IOW, how would the situation change if, say, 1/4 of your neighbors were ERE.

The closest thing we currently have to a summary is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MGQgQZHx1Q

The topic here: viewforum.php?f=27

A lot of the focus is on community development and figuring out how to convey ERE1 to people other than engineers, scientists, ... and other technical "anarcho/libertarian/capitalist" NT-types with an IQ of 120+. This is because a community of the current crop so to speak is too unbalanced to form much of a community. Thus there's a lot of models and frameworks for understanding the different values, cultures, and temperaments found in humanity.

Another focus is figuring out the post-FIRE life script, which frankly doesn't exist. Many don't know what to do with themselves after retiring. There seems to be three general options: tinkering, traveling, or going back to work. Again this reflects the fact that the density of EREmites is so low that everything has to be done as an individual. What could be done if there was a "we" and not just the current situation of spread out "mes".

ertyu
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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by ertyu »

does something like a buddhist monastery qualify? i think it does

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by zbigi »

ertyu wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:33 am
does something like a buddhist monastery qualify? i think it does
Don't they mostly live on handouts? Probably depends on specific monastery, but going out to beg for money for a couple hours per day seems to be a common practice, at least in Buddist countries, where supporting the monks is seen as an act of good by the public.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by AxelHeyst »

I suspect we might have to find inspiration from bits and pieces of different people/communities, and clarify what elements of each it is we're looking at, because complete and integrated examples for ERE2.0 are unlikely to exist.

So there might be some elements of community/group coordination and organization within monastic traditions that is useful to take a look at, while other elements are clearly not ERE2.0 (funding source, non-scalability/lack of broad appeal, etc).

Edit: so, what about monk life specifically did you have in mind, ertyu?

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by daylen »

On some level, other examples of ERE2 out in the world must be "funded", non-scalable, and not broadly appealing. What I mean is that the way in which we draw boundaries between communities is likely heading towards preserving highly differentiated micro-cultures embedded and exchanged between slightly differentiated macro-cultures that appear drastically different from the perspective of a micro-culture.

For instance, each continent roughly being a small set of macro-cultures that are converging towards a similar attractor at various paces due to scaling constraints/factors, composed of unique micro-cultures that fluidly engage between each other with highly decentralized organism-machine interfaces moderating translations/transactions across scale. This is already going on to some extent, though I think perhaps the difference between a game A world and a game B world is the degree of decentralized decision making. ERE1/ERE2 being two sides of the coin that needs to land on its side. Collapse onto the individual or collective side will lock us into a destined 1/10 scale game A/B.

Perhaps bio-regional level being sandwiched between the macro and micro. Some funding becomes local, some more global. Yet, generally finance becomes more micro and insurance-heavy.. perhaps.. though I am speculating very coarsely.

My original point was that there are already ERE2 communities out there in an early form that may be lean enough to transition smoothly with intact culture (e.g. the Isha foundation).
Last edited by daylen on Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by daylen »

Now to think of it, using my metaphor: We could spin the coin before it lands.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by candide »

Vinay Gupta wrote a fictional piece entitled The Unplugged that tries to give some shape to dropping out at a community-level. The way this discussion went so far has made me think about it.

https://www.shareable.net/the-unplugged/

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by ertyu »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:20 am
Edit: so, what about monk life specifically did you have in mind, ertyu?
I am going off of, "how would the situation change if 1/4 of your neighbors were ERE" and "how to communicate this to non-scientists/engineers/libertarians with IQ120+"

Within a monastic community, life is intentionally simple. The focus is away from material advancement and onto something else - maybe that was copying manuscripts in medieval times, maybe it's a regular meditation practice and being enlightened, etc. It doesn't have to be Buddhism, the important idea is that the priority is on human development along lines other than consumerism.

There is a schedule of tasks to perform - most monasteries operate on a schedule. These tasks are simple and directly related to the betterment of the community. One is encouraged to see performing these tasks (1) not in salaryman terms, e.g. "now is the time when i denounce personal agency and trade my life for a wage, my life happens later, when im at the store / the bar" and (2) beyond the tasks' immediate usefulness to one. Instead, one sees the task as contributing to the functioning of a system. Furthermore, one is usually encouraged to reflect on how performing the task shapes one as a person, e.g. acts of service, acts of discipline, ego, "building merit" etc.

The monastery then usually also has interactions with the local community - if you wish to hold back on the pastoral/counseling/comforting angle, the interactions can be material, too, e.g. the monastery brews beer, the locals or tourists buy it.

As for communicating to laypersons, over time, the main ideas to be communicated evolve into a coherent system, especially where those ideas were iterated on by successive generations of monastics. "Religion" has evolved as the wrapper for those coherent systems. While religion has been exploited by those who've used it to justify their political power, or by those wanting to retain cult-like power via exploiting and strengthening the sense of exclusion, persecution and existential fears of the cult's members, a monastic community's outreach efforts don't have to be that. An ERE2 community might maintain a library of tools that local non-members might borrow. It might arrange talks on personal development. It might arrange talks on how-to skills. ERE2 community members who've been freed from the need for salaryman service might offer practical assistance as well - e.g. your pipe bursts, you can turn to the monastic community not necessarily to have someone fix it for you but to have someone teach you how to fix it yourself (though I do imagine selfish humans would try to exploit this by trying to get community members to just do it for free via weaponized incompetence; i do not have high hopes for humanity at large)

An ERE2 community might work on providing a hosting a library of DIY video tutorials, too, access to which is independent of youtube's ad whims, or funded by donations.

Etcetera.

There is also a lot of ERE2 community functioning wisdom in the lives of traditional communities like the mennonites or the amish that can be mined.

What would give me pause, personally, is that the traditional organization of such communities seems to, in the course of human history, almost inevitably produce communities that are ultimately oppressive of their members. So in addition to all that can be learned, I imagine there will be a lot of examples of pitfalls to avoid.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by Bonde »

There are a few low cost and low impact (on nature) communities/eco-villages in Denmark.

Grobund presents themselves as
Grobund is an umbrella, a community, a culture and range of associations and businesses. We are fiery souls who work to create space for life. Our goal is to establish a debt -free, waste -free and self -sufficient village with mixed housing and business. We are in rapid development and welcome new interested parties regardless of who you are.
https://www.grobund.org/

They don't write anything about early retirement.

Another one, Friland has the same principles and in a presentation of the inhabitants most of them have multible income streams and explain that they want to have time for their family or other meaningful activities.
https://start.friland.org/historier-fra-frilaendere/

Unfortunately, both sites don't have a working English version. Instead I think that google translate make it somewhat understandable.

One of the pioneers is Steen Møller. There are many interviews with him on youtube but on all that I looked at the automatic translation was not on.
In an interview from april 2022 he said that he only uses wood worth around 1000 DKK (less 150 USD) to heat his entire house of 75m2 annually. So I guess that his annual spending is really low since he is also debt-free and an anti-consumerist.
https://www.tv2ostjylland.dk/syddjurs/v ... r-om-aaret (also in Danish).

I'm not sure if any of these examples fall under the concept of ERE2.0.
Any inputs?
There are probably hundreds if not thousands of eco-villages around the world.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by guitarplayer »

I find coming up with examples a touch tricky as it seems to me it is about conceptualizing things rather than doing things, in fact almost not doing stuff rather than doing it. This is especially in the current Western cultural climate. As in, it is tricky to fix a problem with more of what caused the problem. Maybe ERE2.0 does not look much like anything out of ordinary. Talking my book here, ERE2.0 would be getting a new set of glasses to see the horizon of possibilities otherwise unseen.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by Ego »

ERE2.0 examples are hard to find because it is even more extreme than ERE1.0 and people don't have to do it. They have other options. Even the most ardent theory-driven person will give up if the theory is not enforced from above.

Organic change produces more durable results than ideologically-driven change.

The best examples would be in places where people have no choice. Yemen, Syria, Eritrea, Sudan, Ukraine, Lebanon, Myanmar...

The decomposers I see are smart, working class young people who believe the current system is stacked against them. They are not perfect examples because most live with their parents and would not have the luxury of doing what they are doing if they were paying their own way. Their inability to go the traditional college > good job > good life route has allowed them to apply their creativity in new directions and create a small but growing movement that did not previously exist.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Ego:

Very good point. So, I think maybe it depends upon whether your perspective is that the "organic change" is already happening. I recently watched an interview with Patrick (William) Ophuls, author of "Ecology and the Politics of Scarcity" (1977) and "Apologies to the Grandchildren" (2018.) He said that he honestly doesn't know how to advise his grandchildren for dealing with their life in the 21st century, beyond maybe learning martial arts and meditation.

Even the most optimistic of the rational optimists, (see, for example, the very interesting lecture series by Peter Seba that sky linked in Resources and Recommended Watching) recognize that ever more rapid change to the fundamentals of our society/economy are coming. That big house on the hill, that graduate degree, that valley start-up, that eco-village community, that scavenger skill set, that crypto fund, ... which will have proven to be your best investment by 2042? Would you offer different life planning advice to somebody who is currently 10 years old vs. somebody who is already 40?

One of my nieces is currently living a very ERE 2.0 lifestyle, but without the large financial cushion. She left college and lives on an island/sailboat in South America. I equally grok her desire to live her current lifestyle and her father's concerns about the practicality of her plan.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by vexed87 »

Assuming you're all familiar with Mark Boyle and the Happy Pig in Ireland?

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by AxelHeyst »

@ertyu I like your thoughts on monastic traditions. I think there is a lot there. I'm reminded of how JMG will every once in a while talk about the function that monastic orders played during the 'Dark Ages' in terms of knowledge preservation and proliferation, among other things.

@vexed I am. We've often talked about Boyle in the context of a high wheaton level individual as the moneyless man, but taking a look at how he interacts with community in his latest book The Way Home is more relevant to the ERE2.0 lifestyle notion. His free hostel project the Happy Pig, from what little I know, sounds like a very interesting way of building a point of connection to community and like-minded people. For those who don't know - he and some friends converted a barn (IIRC) into a hostel/event space. It is free, and not advertised. If you can find it and there's space, you can stay in a bunk. So it's more than a youth hostel that's just a crash pad for going out n drinking.

So that's perhaps an example of a specific tactic/pattern people can employ to cultivate/engage with like-minded community. 'Build it and they will come' sort of thing, with filters. The filter at the Happy Pig is you can't find it on the internet, you have to wander around and ask down at the pub, or know someone, just to get to the door. And you won't know if there's space, so there's uncertainty. Immediately, the only people who show up are likely to be interesting.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by jennypenny »

jacob wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:59 am
"Emergent Renaissance Ecology." as in what happens or could happen on a scale that's larger than an individual/family if the density of ERE1 (Early Retirement Extreme) was large enough. IOW, how would the situation change if, say, 1/4 of your neighbors were ERE.
Is the 2.0 goal to see how a collective ’we’ can benefit us (ERErs) and strengthen our ties to each other? Or is 2.0 just a step towards 3.0, where 2.0 is how a 'we' can benefit us and 3.0 is how a collection of 'we's can grow and strengthen everyone?

I ask because the examples I would give are different depending on the answer. The scalability of different examples varies depending on the ultimate goal structure.

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by rref »

+1 for Steen Møller mentioned by Bonde. He is working on the second iteration of an ERE village type of thing with Grobund (having already cofounded one established and ongoing version in Friland).

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Re: Examples of ERE2.0 Lifestyles

Post by jennypenny »

No response :? , so I guess I'll just give a couple of my examples.

While I love what people like Boyle are doing, I'm not sure that I want to live monkstyle with a group of hardcore ERErs. I can appreciate that some would, but that's too isolated a life for me. It also doesn't really spread the gospel of ERE very well if that's a goal of the community.

There are small prepper enclaves that have sprung up around the country that would qualify (I can't list them here) but ultimately we decided that they were too insular. Ditto eco-doomer enclaves. While I love sitting around a campfire at night drinking beer and talking about the end of the world, it's not really how I want to live out the rest of my days.

I prefer the developing communities based on approaches to resiliency. I like Ithaca NY which has lots of small farms in the area, as well as ecovillages and pocket neighborhoods. Ithaca is very liberal so it's appeal is based on back-to-the-land and earth-first principles. The intellectual climate is what draws people to Ithaca.

Another hot spot is the Raleigh NC to Columbia SC area (actually stretches from southern VA through south of Leesville). That's where a lot of homesteaders are settling. A pretty strong support network has developed, including regular get-togethers and festivals. This group tends to be more right of center but not always. Many are homeschoolers so favorable state laws re:homeschooling are what drew some of the first adopters to the area. Dairy regulation is another. And affordability.

I like those communities because they evolved organically based on needs and interests. They aren't enclaves, but people are located close enough to each other to socialize occasionally and provide a support network. One observation I've made (after looking at several options) is that the eco-groups tend to skew older with fewer, if any, children, and the homesteader and prepper groups skew younger with kids aplenty. Both are fine but I suspect that groups with more kids will end up being more robust.

I don't know how EREs might do that. What shared interests do we have that would get us to move closer to each other? EREs don't seem to have interests, they have methods ... which is great except it doesn't fill your day or make for good conversation. I know that 'J's (as opposed to 'P's) don't like process, but process is what most people bond over and how they spend their days. I don't think ERE 1.0 principles lead to group formation or cohesion. Just because we're all running the same operating system doesn't mean we're all playing the same video game.

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