Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Home of groups, cadres, circles, teams, ...
candide
Posts: 432
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:25 pm
Location: red state America
Contact:

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by candide »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:18 pm
The whole rest of the forum is where it's tricky. Sometimes a Master's topic is going along nicely and then some PhD nerd comes in and douses the thing with cold water.... or maybe it feels like a squad of nerds come in and commandeers the conversation?
I think that hits the nail on the head for the cases I think the jargon is misused. (I *am* conceding that there are places it can be well-used, and agreeing that ERE2 is its most native home).

There are examples of a conversation that is going well at its own level and then it will be met with a response of

This is just an example of ... [insert abstract label].

And since text gives so little tone what might be an attempt at elegance reads just as easily as bluntness, a kind of "I already know that shit... why are you wasting my time with examples?" But either way, there isn't really anything to say in response. .. However, Axel makes me see that in some ways is a better case than having the PhD program talk over you.

Also, mea culpa: I realize now that some of the times this has happened was when I was sticking my nose into the conversations of others. I am willing to stay where I belong, and stay out of where I don't, more often. But with that said, let's go to Pirsig chapter and verse:
I have seen these marshes a thousand times, yet each time they're new... the reality of them overwhelms halfway conceptions. There! A huge flock of red-winged blackbirds ascends from nests in the cattails, startled by our sound. I swat Chris's knee a second time ... then I remember he has seen them before. (Zen, pg 15)
Last edited by candide on Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Scott 2
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by Scott 2 »

My criticism is not around the exclusion of beginners. Rather - I suspect over-intellectualization creates an unnecessarily tight filter. It excludes broad sources of wisdom. It places the weight of analysis upon a few like minded people. Especially in such an open ended domain, doing so threatens a non-scalable solution.

Take someone like ffj. He's talked about not being smart enough to contribute. I don't agree, but let's assume it's true. Maybe his brain is wired to juggle 5 discrete ideas, instead of Jacob's 10. Yet - he has deep life experience. He was/is a leader. He built a home from scratch. He's managing a personal forest. The last thing I'd call him is a beginner. Wouldn't it be better to adjust the conversation, to draw upon his strengths as well?

I think this thread demonstrates, there's a wealth of people available to contribute, that are opting out for complexity reasons. It's another form of the diversity and inclusion problem. Confusing differing backgrounds for differing abilities to contribute. Alternatively - the community could identify barriers created via unstated assumptions, then figure out how to mitigate them. This increases overall leverage against the problem. It's moving slow to go far.


I took another look at the spiral dynamics. From what I can tell, the domain model starts with 8 value systems each having 14 attributes. Then there's an interplay to consider, as well as changes over time. I think it'd cost me a year of regular study and practice, before I'd be anything but dangerous with the ideas. That's a steep price, more than I'm prepared for. I'm good at stuff like this too. I can't help but wonder how many people are truly grokking the framework.

candide
Posts: 432
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:25 pm
Location: red state America
Contact:

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by candide »

jacob wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:41 am
In terms of this thread, the problem is that the chain is weakening at a certain point. WL5-6 to use jargon.
As a WL 5 interested in moving up to 6, I'm particularly interested in this part of the chain. Thus, I've started this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=265206#p265206

What would be helpful from forum veterans would be examples of the journals and threads that were people making this transition. Part of this process can be a rediscovery for what the forum has to offer in its deeper recesses.

But other than that, I think it is going to end up being more of what Scott was talking about -- experiments, examples, maybe even how people are feeling. This might be tedious for those are further along. That's fine. They only need to check in when they feel like it.

Western Red Cedar
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:15 pm

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by Western Red Cedar »

jacob wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:05 pm
I don't think it's a false narrative as much as it's an incomplete narrative. It's a complex situation with several contributing factors. The "duplicate written space" on MMGs is one. The loss of politics is another factor. The air going out of the "everything bubble" is a third one. I'll note that politics was shut down in Q1/2021. The bubble started deflating in Q1/2022. And the MMGs didn't start becoming a thing before Q1/2022 as well (before that there was only AH's MMG. In terms of forum activity, it has really started dying off this year. Similarly to diagnosing the Great Financial Crisis it is not just one cause---there are multiple causes driving a trend ... and the trend is down.

I have indeed been keeping track of the numbers. If you hit the Quick Links in the burger menu in the top left and click Active Topics, it'll show you how many threads have been active in the past 7 days. This number has increased from 30-40 to 61 in the last 5 days since this thread started highlighting the problem. Another metric is the oldest of the last 20 topics (the date of the bottom last post on the first post). Right now, the most recent 20 threads are all younger than 24 hours, which was more or less standard throughout forum history until it started its decline over the last year or maybe two. Last week, the oldest of the most recent 20 threads could be as old as 3-4 days.

Acknowledging the problem or raising awareness about is not the same as acting in a way that solves or prevents it. Even a few people dropping off the clear net will reduce the activity. I don't know how active the discord/slack servers are in the respective groups. I do know that the MMG I'm part of contains discussions about resilience that could be more productively held here. Due to being split, we get 1-2 straggling conversations with people splitting their attention/responses when we could have had one solid one on the clearnet.

The network effect really is real. When people engage in a thread on the clearnet, it causes not only other to engage as well but it also increases the likelihood of responding instead of just logging on, noticing that "nothing new has happened" and logging off again. Activity begets more activity. This is why cordoning a large group into small and dark subgroups creates a "divide and conquer"-type death. [I know how it's popular in certain circles to start groups for pretty much everything ... but in effect this division kills off everything. This is what happened to the Deep Adaption forum. It's what's beginning to happen here. It's hard to see it at the ground level. It's obvious from a birds-eye view.]
Thank you for the detailed response and providing some hard numbers on activity levels. Based on the feedback in this thread, and similar feedback in the WL discussion thread, it seems like jargon/shorthand/terminology is another contributing factor to the decreased activity. Perhaps this is indicative of the fact that some of the discussion is simply "leveling up" in terms of WL progression. If so, that makes some of the discussion a little harder to track for those migrating here from traditional FIRE perspectives, and will naturally lead to a decrease in participation. It also sounds like it has led to decreased participation from some long-time members here. I'm a little sensitive to this particular issue because in my professional life communication and jargon are often either unconsciously or consciously used to limit participation and dialogue.

With that said, I recognize that the forum represents different things to different members. For you, a major benefit is the ability to have intellectual discussions and try to solve complex problems. I'm sure it is exhausting and time-consuming to interact with people who want to weigh in on topics like climate change or investing without first educating themselves, or at least approaching the topics with some humility. I appreciate that we have a relatively high standard for posting and participating here. It is a bit of a double edged sword though, in that it likely de-incentivizes some level of forum activity and reinforces lurking for certain personality types.

------------

I was probably a bit defensive upthread because I actively try to welcome new members to the forum, offer encouraging comments in journals, and post elsewhere where I can add value. I also see other folks involved in MM groups actively posting and participating here. My primary barrier to additional posting is time/capacity. I typically need to sit down for at least 30 minutes to craft a reasonable post. In terms of balancing work, family, and life I don't have a lot of extra time to post here. I couldn't easily move my activity on the MM signal chat here because I often respond on my phone while I'm working out, taking a walk, or sitting on a zoom call. I'm also not sure that my personal records for pull-ups or photos of my roasted chickens would add a lot of value :lol:

I personally spent more than a year lurking here to familiarize myself with ERE terminology and discussion norms. I think we can be welcoming, and currently are welcoming, while maintaining high standards for communication and posting. We should probably accept that this will naturally lead to more activity in the journals, where folks are more comfortable posting. The journals are, by far, my favorite part of the forum.

I guess I want to encourage some of those who worry about the culture of the forum to reflect on their own behavior. Are you welcoming new people in the introduction sections? Are you commenting in journals? Are you actively posting or participating in threads?

*ETA - +1 to everything @Scott2 just said while I was writing this post.

macg
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:48 pm
Location: USA-FL

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by macg »

I wanted to post, as someone who has been an avid reader of the forum almost from the beginning, but one who rarely posts.

I think this is a great community, and an unusual one. I do agree with the posters who state that it's not too newbie-friendly - but I don't think that's a bad thing. As stated by Jacob and others, I always viewed this as a "graduate level" place, and I think it's a positive that there is some expectation that newbies learn prior to finding the forum, as well as a learning curve prior to really participating. Some may see this as a flaw, but it's not. Is it true that ultimately this mindset might cause there to be no new people coming in? Sure... But that's the risk, and I'd personally rather have that than have this turn into one of the million other FI forums.

I'd argue that this is one of the few unique forums out there - it's more akin to the old Usenet or CompuServe forums, back when you really had to know what you were doing to even find the proper group/forum. Again, that's a good thing.

As for participation, I feel like I fall into a minority of the people here, where I don't have a journal, and rarely post comments. This is a "me thing", and not due to the forum mentality. As stated, I've been a lurker here what seems like forever, but I still haven't decided how I can best contribute. I'm not much of a journaler, I have no clear goal of where I want to be and when, I just try to learn, and get better than I am. Some things I feel like I am what would be considered a very high WL, others I'm at the bottom. Perhaps some day I will get a clear epiphany that will jump start a journal or something, who knows. For now I'm sticking with trying to add value with comments when possible.

I've seen the progression of this forum, and seen people come and go, seen many people who added to the value, and yes, there have been a few who I think made it worse in some ways. The end of the political section was inevitable, and I'm happy Jacob did that - there's just too much vitriol and stubbornness nowadays, all it ended up doing was detracting from the forum. Some of the jargon has been tough, but ultimately a great thing, because it caused me to research and learn, just to understand what was being said. My current struggle is the same as some others - the whole colours thing 😁 ... But that's on me, I currently can't relate or think like that, and I also currently don't have the mindset or time to dedicate in order to try to understand it all. It might be a WL thing, or just how my brain translates things, who knows. But again, that's one of the great things about this forum - I know there are going to be whole threads I'm just not going to understand or care about. That's okay, I don't want to be in a forum that doesn't push me, I don't want to be in a forum that doesn't make me think and learn new things.

I do want to say thank all the members out there, especially the active posters. And of course, Jacob. This is a great place to be, and I always learn a ton. Heck, I was months ahead of other people I know in regards to the pandemic, purely because of this forum. I don't know if I will ever start a journal, honestly, but I will work on contributing more to this forum in the ways that I can.

theanimal
Posts: 2627
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:05 pm
Location: AK
Contact:

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by theanimal »

Just to throw another post in to echo what others said about excessive jargon and getting far too technical. It has become exponential over the past few years and tends to shut down threads as others have mentioned. I have looked at the Spiral Dynamics colors, read the Kegan levels paper and the Cook-Greuter model. I have not and do not really have an interest in the Fi Te Ne stuff. I see this as similar to Fish's thread about forum standards some years ago. Some of the most active and longtime users like myself, FFJ, and jennypenny occasionally feel intimidated and don't always feel comfortable posting because we think we aren't smart enough or what we have is worth contributing. I don't think that's a good thing. If that's the case for us, what is it like for someone who has never posted or doesn't post often?

I get it, that this is Jacob house and he wants a high bar, no problem there. But master's level discourse seems much different than PhD level discourse and the more technical breakdown is not what brought most of us here and together. If these types of conversations are dying out here (where this stuff is relatively popular) why would engagement suddenly change? Or attract new members? I have no problem with people having those conversations if they want to. But I don't ever expect them to drive strong engagement.

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 6359
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by Ego »

I have never hidden my dislike of the jargonization of the forum, but I think it may be useful for all of us to reread this....
jacob wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:18 am
Actionable advice: To change the atmosphere or lens of the forum, there´s strength in numbers. Retreating or lurking only serve to propagate the current situation. Effectively, every time you decide not to post, it's a vote that you approve of the current atmosphere. I realize that it takes more than one person to change the tone (this is also why I can´t do it on my own even as a moderator) and so it will require some spontaneous coordination in which several people consistently push the new lens or atmosphere for a while. It works. This is, after all, how the current atmosphere was "installed". And no, the atmosphere is not changed by attacking the old one. It's changed by replacing it.

TL;DR - To create the space that you prefer... you simply have to take it by which I mean develop it. Don´t take it from someone else. It´s much like converting land by throwing seeds. Complaining about the current crop or garden (that someone else planted) won´t change anything. Planting enough seeds will.
It occurred to me that rather than criticizing Jacob and others for using too many technical terms (mea culpa), we can just do what we are asking him to do. That is, we can continue to engage in the technical conversations but do it without using the terms and see how hard it is to make ourselves understood using simple words.

It is the least we can do considering it is important to Jacob, he hosts this place and we have the responsibility of at least trying to be good guests. It will also make it understandable for new people. What do you think?

User avatar
Sclass
Posts: 2791
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:15 pm
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by Sclass »

I’ve really enjoyed reading this. There are some other recent threads where members talk of feeling intimidated by the WL, Kegan color etc. stuff. Some of that morphed into the MMG runaways I guess. Maybe it was intimidating. Maybe it was just boring or irrelevant for the lurkers.

A few people said they just lurk and don’t get involved in the “high level” discussions. That will inevitably define what the place is over the long term. Right, like MMG people. There’s kind of feedback effect where the group becomes what it drives. Saying “you post you vote” is too simplistic in this system. Some post, overwhelm others and structures get reinforced and runaway. It’s like telling a species how to evolve.

What’s jumping out at me is this place is alive. Its players have needs and goals. Jacob while being a big influence here seems to have evolving intellectual goals. Living people have changing needs over time. I think the forum really reflects kind of a growth or evolution in progress. This place runs on a machine but it we cannot really expect it to be robotic and consistent over long periods of time.

Didn’t something similar happen when the site became a blog roll and “just read the ERE book”? In all fairness we cannot treat Jacob like some kind of juke box of coursework to early retirement forever. There is a growing human being with changing needs behind this machine.

The analogies of this forum being like a graduate level academic education suggest there is some obligation or charter to be like a school. Set in place and standardized. An expectation of delivery and content. At the university there is this vague line between a postdoc and a professor - student vs. teacher and the distinction is different depending on the institution. When Jacob says stuff like “I want to get to this level” or “this is boring and repetitive” it’s telling us something about institutional roles.

Some questions that come to my mind are what do we want out of this thing anyway? What exactly is this machine supposed to do anyway? And who am I to make it that way?

Things have certainly changed a lot over the years here. It’ll be interesting to see what happens. I can see a few possible end games. In the meantime I think I’ll post up some how to save money by fixing something yourself photo rich posts. Nothing is broken here. ;)

BTW the most frustrating thing about the WL and color stuff is I cannot really figure out how it relates to me. Maybe I’m too dumb. Or maybe it’s just dumb. What is this and how is it going to help me tomorrow? Probably my brazing photos elicit similar responses. Perhaps this is where posting up a new thread about something you are interested in comes in.

daylen
Posts: 2528
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by daylen »

I don't think anyone reading here is too dumb for these models. More that it just isn't all that clear why one should learn them. Though, once the patterns are "seen" then they reappear over and over. People are always reinventing this stuff in their own way to make sense of all the different preferences and motivations humans have. I suggest to those who are uncertain about these models to try to make connections to what they have already felt but haven't expressed much.

Like learning algebra.. it is a bit tricky to project its worth in the long run. Once you learn and internalize what it means to manipulate an algebraic equation in various contexts, it becomes easy and allows you to spot such patterns where ever they may find a use. Enough practice and you can do it in your head without jargon. Jargon is most helpful along the steepest sections of the S-curve to help figure about what to do next.

Much of the utility comes from making sense of the bigger picture of human relations and histories. If you already feel as though you are connected to this bigger picture than great! Though, perhaps some might seek a system of jargon to help absorb broad societal patterns which are indirectly useful for investing or portfolio management.

User avatar
grundomatic
Posts: 413
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:04 am

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by grundomatic »

daylen wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:19 am
I suggest to those who are uncertain about these models to try to make connections to what they have already felt but haven't expressed much.
I'm grateful for the forum having pushed me to learn all these models. Exactly like daylen said, they helped put words and organization to things I have felt and intuited but couldn't express. Then again, I'm different than most around here. I could use the models to explain how, but there's apparently low interest in a shared framework. I will say that it's hard to keep up. Some model or another pops up, and I want to understand and be able to participate on the forum, so I look into it. By the time I read the wiki, find the book, read the book, and then reread/think about it to (maybe actually) understand, the active discussion is months or a year old. I suppose this is the chain of development jacob is hoping to create, at least if my subsequent participation on the forum helps others learn.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15907
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by jacob »

daylen wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:19 am
I don't think anyone reading here is too dumb for these models. More that it just isn't all that clear why one should learn them. Though, once the patterns are "seen" then they reappear over and over. People are always reinventing this stuff in their own way to make sense of all the different preferences and motivations humans have. I suggest to those who are uncertain about these models to try to make connections to what they have already felt but haven't expressed much.

Like learning algebra.. it is a bit tricky to project its worth in the long run. Once you learn and internalize what it means to manipulate an algebraic equation in various contexts, it becomes easy and allows you to spot such patterns where ever they may find a use. Enough practice and you can do it in your head without jargon. Jargon is most helpful along the steepest sections of the S-curve to help figure about what to do next.

Much of the utility comes from making sense of the bigger picture of human relations and histories. If you already feel as though you are connected to this bigger picture than great! Though, perhaps some might seek a system of jargon to help absorb broad societal patterns which are indirectly useful for investing or portfolio management.
Agreeing with all this and just adding my two bits.

These (Wheaton, Spiral, MBTI, Cook-Greuter, ...) models come about from some researcher(s) having talked to a large number of very different people and eventually realizing one or two things.

First, as one talks to more and more people---and I've seen a few thousand pass through the forum over the past 12 years---patterns begin to appear. Someone whose focus in life is A is more likely than not also focused on B and C and vice versa. Someone focused on X is more than likely also focused on Y and Z and vice versa. This does not mean that someone who is interested in B doesn't care about Z, but they are less likely to do so. It's not a matter of 0/100 stereotyping ... more like 30/70.

These patterns provide a starting point for understanding another person (how they think, what they've thought about, how they're influenced by their culture, ... ). If you see A, B, or C in someone, you can assume with some enhanced rate of success that they also have the other two. Having the right starting point makes it easier to make progress when conversing. Corrections are made from there. Whereas having the wrong starting point (making the wrong assumptions) can lead to misunderstanding, social faux-pais, getting ignored, or worse...

After learning these models, I'm much better at talking to random people than I used to be. (I used to be a walking disaster. I'm now able to step in and out of different perspectives and occasionally build bridges between ann and bob. This is not due to knowing ann and knowing bob but identifying ann and bob's types and what already knowing what the most effective/likely to succeed bridge between their respective types look like. My batting average has gone up significantly using this framework compared to basing my behavior on what I thought I knew about ann or bob based on my meandering conversations with them. I was often wrong.)

Second, if there's some kind of developmental curve involved like with Wheaton levels, Cook-Greuter, and Kegan ... but not with MBTI ... and maybe with Spiral as the collective level. Someone who has talked to lots of different people and who has also watched them change over the years also begins to notice that change tends to happen in the same way more often than not. Being focused on A, B, C usually happens before focusing on D, E, F, ... and talking about X, Y, Z to A, B, C usually leads to complaints about "overcomplicating" what according to the A, B, C perspective should be relatively simple stuff. (Yes, relatively, young grasshopper.)

People tend to exhibit WL1 patterns before they exhibit WL2 patterns ... cultures tend to exhibit red before blue and blue before orange... people tend to focus on becoming experts before they start planning for careers and that happens before they start questioning their role in the universe ... and this is followed by them beginning to strategize about it. And so on.

Thus if you're trying to explain something to anyone, it helps to know a) where they are coming from; and b) where they are going. This is what all these systems are for. The jargon is just short hand for about 5-15 different types depending on the framework. Once you see it, it becomes hard to unsee.

It's likely useless for those who care more about the process of explanation, like "we're just hanging out and talking"/"I enjoy learning about ann, bob, and carl by talking to them". "I don't care about having to study stuff. I'm just having fun here." However, if you care about results AT SCALE or want to know how you can best explain ERE (or anything else for that matter) to anyone rather than just the people you actually know extremely well, it's quite useful and effective. It is perhaps too effective. I can see how it can turn people off to be given a diagnosis followed by the prescription that is most likely to solve their issue. "But doctor, I think my situation is unique and that we should maybe talk a bit more about this? Run some tests?" "Sorry, I'm a busy doctor and I have other patients to see. Look I've seen hundreds of cases like yours and yours is really quite common. So if you want to solve your problem, I suggest you follow my advice."

It gets even more important for those who are designing a curriculum, writing textbooks, and reaching more people. (This is ERE2.) It would be almost impossible to do this deliberately without some understanding of the underlying psychology/sociology/etc. It would be like throwing mud on the wall. I should say that those of us who do this systematically are looking at the mud on the wall to see what works and what doesn't, so by all means continue doing so if one enjoys that process. It provides data ;-) I understand that insofar one's [social] focus is mostly defined by keeping to oneself and/or making pleasant small-talk with one's own in-group or bloviating on social media w/o concern for the consequences, all these social psychology models are useless.

Myakka
Posts: 122
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:39 am

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by Myakka »

This is a stray thought that I haven't processed fully, but it seems to me that what was lost in closing down the Politics section was the casual conversations that that allowed, and what many of us are needing or wanting is remedial level course work on the models which are so frequently bandied about here.

So how about a section on this forum dedicated to learning each of these models. I have personally read most of them, but what that gives me is wissen level understanding -- not a full deep kenen understanding. To bridge the gap I probably need some time discussing each of them and saying the stupid crap most people usually need to say on the path to understanding.

In my imagination this would serve both as a forum for learning and as a place for people who are not functioning on a scholar's level to post for other people like them.

This is just a brain child and I have no deep emotional attachment to it. Kick it to the trash, if it deserves that.

AnalyticalEngine
Posts: 949
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:57 am

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Is there a summary of the frameworks in the wiki? If not, would that help?

candide
Posts: 432
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:25 pm
Location: red state America
Contact:

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by candide »

Myakka wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:51 pm
So how about a section on this forum dedicated to learning each of these models. I have personally read most of them, but what that gives me is wissen level understanding -- not a full deep kenen understanding. To bridge the gap I probably need some time discussing each of them and saying the stupid crap most people usually need to say on the path to understanding.

In my imagination this would serve both as a forum for learning and as a place for people who are not functioning on a scholar's level to post for other people like them.
I think it might have gotten buried in the shuffle, but Daylen has offered to something like this as a video chat.

viewtopic.php?p=265071#p265071

I think there is a good chance if you ask nicely it could be converted into a thread.

mathiverse
Posts: 788
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:40 pm

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by mathiverse »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:01 pm
Is there a summary of the frameworks in the wiki? If not, would that help?
So far we have only a start here due to Miss Lonelyhearts earlier post: https://wiki.earlyretirementextreme.com ... reviations

It would be nice to have fleshed out top level articles for each of the terms that are red on the list.

---

As for people wanting threads to ask the questions they have about each framework: Please start the threads! Ask your questions. Ask for summaries. They are welcome and it's something anyone can do. It'll be a good addition to the forum. Maybe the threads can be a starting point for updating the wiki posts that are mentioned above.
Last edited by mathiverse on Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AnalyticalEngine
Posts: 949
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:57 am

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

I can write some summaries then. Maybe if I get super ambitious, I can draw some illustrations too.

horsewoman
Posts: 659
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:11 am

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by horsewoman »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:18 pm

The ERE2.0 subforum is essentially a PhD subforum. All the jargon and arcana is fair game there. Agreed?

The whole rest of the forum is where it's tricky. Sometimes a Master's topic is going along nicely and then some PhD nerd comes in and douses the thing with cold water.... or maybe it feels like a squad of nerds come in and commandeers the conversation?

Is any of this resonating?
Yes, very much so! My interest in the forums has been waning a lot in the last few months. I thought this was mostly due to what @AH described in the quote above - lots of threads start comprehensible and then suddenly the Te-Fi/Green/yellow crowd would take over, and I lost interest, due to not being able to follow. I did not make a connection with the mastermind groups, but it might have of course contributed (in hindsight).
The thing is, I know and do not mind at all that I can't make head or tail of a lot of the ERE2.0 forum threads (or @Daylens posts in general :D ).
That's a me-problem because I'm too lazy/dumb to put in the work to understand those frameworks.
But when it is prevalent in so many posts it makes reading cumbersome and boring.
So I guess, what I'm trying to say - both "camps" need to be considerate of each other - the "doers" need to make sure that quality content is provided as not to make the forum completely boring for the "thinkers" - and the "thinkers" need to be considerate of those posts and not "derail" them with too much jargon. All those quotation marks because I'm not sure about all of that. Very unfinished thoughts on this thread, which I read in one go. And now I'm wondering if my unfinished thoughts are of any value at all to this discussion. To post or not to post? The struggle is real, and I would not even consider myself a "newbie"!

IlliniDave
Posts: 3845
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by IlliniDave »

jennypenny wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:08 am
I assumed the heavy use of shorthand was a deliberate method of gatekeeping -- an unstated barrier to entry, specifically to ERE 2.0. I thought jacob only wanted participants who were willing to put in the work to learn all the WL/SD/MBTI shorthand. Reading jacob's explanation though, maybe that's not the case? From my perspective, it feels like the MMGs and heavy use of shorthand are all the same thing -- the forum's version of secret handshakes and sub-clubs that are meant to give other people the impression that they aren't welcome. I assumed it was a deliberate shift on the forum and took the hint, as it were. Otherwise I'd always sound like a noob, which would be strange after 10+ years on the forum.
TL;DR People arrive from different starting points heading in different directions. There's now a robust group focused on elevating ERE from a theoretical perspective that is active so maybe in a sense (to the casual observer) it's becoming more of a specialized academic pursuit than the older Renaissance Man image of yesteryear.

The quote I included above from jennypenny reflects how I've felt for roughly the last 2 years. I did read the whole thread, and get that it maybe wasn't the intent, but it got to a point I reminded myself of the old Sesame Street song with the refrain "Which one of these things is not like the other..." Heck, reading this thread was the first time I encountered "ERE 2" which has apparently been around for a while.

I still come around and post in my journal because at one time that was something jacob, while maybe not quite asking us to do, indicated it was something he would like people to do more (I'm both FI and retired), and because there are a few people who have stopped by there occasionally over the last 8.5 years and I enjoy hearing from them. But that number dwindles as my little path through life continues to diverge from the center of mass of the group here.

And on occasion I'll peruse the "Active Topics" and every once in a blue moon I'll participate in a discussion if something is said that strikes a chord or the truly rare occasion I think I might have something to add. I guess I tend to be more horizontal than vertical in the sense I don't want to play the cost of admission to learn all the jargon and frameworks and specialized paradigms to keep up with and climb one specific ladder. That's on me. I'm old, and in some ways tired. The educational-corporate grind over 40 years took a lot out of me. Now I just want to live well (whatever that means) and that's sort of what appealed to me about the forum of yesteryear. People doing interesting everyday things without throwing tons of money around to do them. It was inspirational and since there's still some of that around, still is. But once the Wheaton Scale came along there was understandably a group that coalesced whose interest was to climb the ladder and that seemed to displace the older vibe. But from a semi-outsider perspective that climb looks like getting into a PhD program. No doubt it is a noble endeavor, just not one that is best for me at this juncture.

This isn't meant to be critical or a motion to change anything. I can happily coexist with folks whose interests aren't mine. It's just a view from the cheap seats.

And who knows, maybe I have it all wrong. Maybe Fe Ti is short for "Fellows, it's Time to go fishing!" :)

ertyu
Posts: 2893
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:31 am

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by ertyu »

Reading the above, I had the thought, people shouldn't hesitate to start threads about what is currently important to them even if it seems that it's not something the "core" group is into. I don't mean it in a "well if you don't like what the ere2 color people are talking about why haven't you started your own thread then" way, rather in a "don't assume that just because the bigwigs of the forum appear to be into something that's arcane to you there isn't space for you and your concerns on the forum." In fact, sharing more mundane concerns will help structure a space where newcomers belong even if people further along their personal growth trajectory have long sorted these things out for themselves.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15907
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by jacob »

ertyu wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:53 pm
Reading the above, I had the thought, people shouldn't hesitate to start threads about what is currently important to them even if it seems that it's not something the "core" group is into. I don't mean it in a "well if you don't like what the ere2 color people are talking about why haven't you started your own thread then" way, rather in a "don't assume that just because the bigwigs of the forum appear to be into something that's arcane to you there isn't space for you and your concerns on the forum." In fact, sharing more mundane concerns will help structure a space where newcomers belong even if people further along their personal growth trajectory have long sorted these things out for themselves.
I also don't see why there can't be room for both. In fact, there needs to be room for both.

Just to elaborate ...

Most of the color/level stuff result from the fact that the forums have nearly 1000 journals. If you've read a few hundred of them you'll begin to see patterns. Journals fall into groups of people who are somewhat similar. And if you've been following these groups for a 2-10 years, you'll notice that people in these groups tend to shift what they're talking about and what they're focusing on over time. This talking seems to fall into various stages. And these stages seem to follow rather predictably from one stage to the next stage. While it's not possible to say how long a given stage (focus and talking points) lasts, it's possible to say what someone will likely focus and talk about next ... if there is a next. And this recognition of staging patterns is but the ERE Wheaton levels.

Depending on how much one zooms out or in, there are two ways of seeing this.

The zoomed-in perspective: If one is actively commenting on other journals and updating one's own, people more often than not converge towards finding others in the same group and stage creating a kind of informal tribe of people who look out for each other. It's hard not to notice that certain people tend to hang around certain journals talking about certain things in a certain way.

The zoomed-out perspective: The "bigwigs" are more interested in, as you say, "structuring [the entire] space" (and understanding its structure). How groups evolve over time. How people tend to transition into other groups. How to talk to a person or a group which is stuck in a problem (that others have already solved) in a way they can understand while being inspiring and not alienating. This varies a lot depending on group and stage and thus the hardest problem is communicating in a way that is understandable/inspirational to a wide range (ideally the full range) of groups and stages.

If one thinks of this as a school---and I do---it's the difference between looking for study-buddies for a given semester/class ... and running what it essentially a learning-organization(*).

(*) Simultaneously running the school while learning how to run the school.

One can't have one without the other. If it's 100% study-buddies who rarely or ever meet other groups, one has effectively created a bubble where every inspiration and new idea needs to be generated in-house (in a very small house). This leads to stagnation or echo-chambers. It's the equivalent of all practice and fixed theory. This is mostly blind learning. If there were no informal groups (group size=1), it would be schooling anno 1880 with one schoolmaster teaching rote-facts from up front (cf. a blog). That's the equivalent of all theory and fixed practice, i.e. "training". This is mostly ineffective learning.

My aim with the forum is to have something in between the two by taking the best from modernism (people who actually know what they're talking about) and postmodernism (people who talk to each other).

Post Reply