3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Where are you and where are you going?
ertyu
Posts: 2893
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:31 am

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

An interesting experience with a Brief Solution Focused Therapy (BSFT) exercise:

For the last couple of weeks, I'd been starting to feel more and more like I cannot make myself go to work; regardless of how objectively taxing my job was or wasn't, I didn't want to go; I felt immense resistance and like forcing myself past it to show up for another day of work will be suffering.

I've felt like this before -- in fact, I felt the same but stronger when I first joined the forum and was burnt out af. It's been a problem because the resistance makes doing what I've rationally decided to do unpleasant beyond any inherent unpleasantness of the task itself.

As originally conceived, BSFT is very interesting: it asks of one to imagine what life without the problem would look like and/or to remember times in the part when the problem wasn't an issue and/or one could overcome it, even temporarily. It asks one to think about questions like, "well, if your problem now is at 4 out of 10 suck, where 0 is max suck and 10 is no suck, imagine a miracle happened while you slept and you woke up at 4.1 suck -- how would you know? What signs in your life would you observe?"

The part that was most interesting to me as I studied the BSFT approach is that the point of this is emphatically NOT to obtain a to-do list or a series of next steps one is then on the hook to perform. In fact, BSFT actively discourages one from, for instance, journaling about potential next steps or brainstorming solutions or things to do. Instead, it encourages the writing of to-done lists, where one writes about all the positive things one has done or accomplished already.

On to the story: on Sunday, I was sitting on a park bench with a coffee, dreading Monday and feeling the desire to escape from my job very intensely. As escapism, I picked up my cell phone and began scrolling through job postings. There was one for "lecturer of economics" at a non-prestigious university, 15 lecture-hours a week + 2 hours of office hours, no further practically a part-time job. Starting next semester. For a couple of minutes, I just let myself feel how wonderful it would be to walk out of my job and go do that. I won't, for a couple of reasons -- the location of the lecturer job, the fact that I do not want to sour my relationship with my current workplace and quit before the end of contract expiration (it's good to stay on their good side, they were one of the few places willing to rehire me after I'd been fired/pulled a runner on my last job postings with my CV as job-hoppy as it is); in addition, I am not in a very highly paid profession and I can use full-time pay. It wasn't even about being a lecturer, it was about walking away from my current job and being free. But even though it's not the rational course of action, I really enjoyed the fantasy on a very deep level. I didn't make plans to quit or to apply for the lecturer position. Yet I was somehow nurtured and I was able to stop agonizing over having to work on Monday. I am at work now and I don't suffer with the resistance of it. I'm so grateful. It's wonderful to not have to struggle against resistance when doing the simplest of things.

I then realized I'd unconsciously done a BSFT exercise -- I'd imagined what I really wanted, "the miracle," walking away from my job. I had taken no actual steps to do that and had made no actual plans. Yet my ability to handle my life and follow through on the plans I did make improved.

mooretrees
Posts: 762
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:21 pm

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by mooretrees »

Wow, seems sorta counter intuitive to let the daydream happen and somehow that lets the daily grind feel more palatable. I’m gonna try it for myself. Glad you found a solution, however long it lasts. My daydream will be about being a beekeeper just so ya know 😜

Crusader
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:16 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Crusader »

This BSFT sounds like a great modality, I haven't heard of it before. But, I don't know if you want to think of leaving your job, but rather not hating your job so much (given that you have to work). That might alleviate some of the anxiety. As in... what would you feel or do if you actually liked your job? (the problem with that approach is that you might stop saving money, but even that is better than being depressed)

avalok
Posts: 277
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:42 am
Location: West Midlands, UK; Walkscore 73

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by avalok »

Yeah, that is really counter-intuitive. I would have thought it would intensify the desire to leave. I think Crusader makes a good point that you could use this exercise to learn what is missing in your work.

Dave
Posts: 545
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:42 pm

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Dave »

For sure, I totally understand that. I never encourage anyone to dive into the deep end with their whole portfolio. The balance is finding an amount that isn't so much that you are taking on excessive risk of losing a substantial amount of your assets but also not so small that you aren't forced to deal with the emotional aspect of having real money at play. The actual number/% is highly personal.

As is the amount of time spent studying investing and researching a particular investment. Everyone jumps in with varying degrees of capital and knowledge, and in studying many of the greats you can see that they often did so seemingly prematurely on both counts, often to substantial loss (you see this in Market Wizards). These losses, if studied and worked at, are often a catalyst for improvement. More so than reading another book/listening to another podcast by a guru (assuming you have already acquired some base of knowledge). This is something to keep in mind - you are unlikely to every feel 100% "ready" in this space, arguably more so than say cooking or a home repair project or something else, because markets themselves are much more complex and dynamic.

Great point that there is no such thing as not taking a risk. Cash itself is a position with its own pros (optionality, downside protection, etc.) and cons (eaten by inflation, opportunity cost of meaningful returns). The reflection that cash is getting eroded meaningfully by inflation might be a way to "trick" yourself into getting started, at least to the extent of you having a cash position.

True regarding the difficulty of developing those respective skills given your lifestyle.

You know, I just read Market Wizards this year and I found the idea we get out of the market what we want quite fascinating. How much is hard to say, but the more I reflect on myself and other investors I know, I really believe there is truth in it!

Haha, makes sense to me! :lol:

not sure
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:34 pm

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by not sure »

@ertyu, I try to look for "red threads" at work - things that I like about the job/workplace, however small or rare they may be on a given day.
For example, a colleague I like, nice smell of coffee from the coffee machine in the morning (free!), a customer or co-worker who says "thank you".
They help me get through the day, especially when the end date is known.
I also track weeks - every Friday I cross out one more. Gives me a sense of satisfaction.
I also found that spending a lot of time on this forum makes things worse - makes me more angsty to be "done". We are all at different stages and sometimes reading about the lives of those who are further along on a perceived "journey" can be counterproductive to the enjoyment* of your own.
*or, at least, feeling at peace

mush
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:09 am

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by mush »

@ertyu! I would like to thank you for your journal.

I like the perspective you bring from EE, and the sensibility you have among this forum that can seem full of very down to earth people. I'm also, most of the time, afraid by the perspective of working, so reading your journal and its associated comments was highly instructing. I wish you good luck in your journey. You have your priorities straight, so even if it'll be hard, you'll get to it eventually.

ertyu
Posts: 2893
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:31 am

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

OutOfTheBlue wrote:
Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:15 pm
a rental near your work (or a work location that is accessible by public transport) that includes a kitchen and is not far from food markets, you'd only have to focus on one thing out of the big three: food/cooking.
OOtB, I have tried this before and it absolutely fucks with my head. I need distance between me and work, some illusion of escape at least. I have also had dormitory housing on-site with access to a company-funded cafeteria; that was one of the jobs I was fired from. It absolutely does my head in. My problem is I'm too tightly specialized, my job is my job and my next job would be pretty much the same as this job. Moving between locations provides at least some variety. I have looked into a bunch of journaling exercises I can do along the lines of, "OK, if this wasn't an option, what would you do? ... and if that wasn't an option under any shape or form, what would you do?" etc. Right now, I do feel pretty stuck and like any plan to switch from my current line of work would involve a significant friction cost in terms of time and money -- and with come with reduced pay. Maybe it's the depression. Anyway, I persevere

@mush: glad to be of service dude

@not_sure: yeah, this makes sense. I've never done well with "positive thinking" and "gratitude", though, I'm a Slav, we don't have the Calvinist predestination thing where it's a moral imperative to be joyful happy and excited to demonstrate that you're one of god's chosen and not be shunned by your community. So we walk around being sourpusses and wonder whether Americans are dim or something, to walk around smiling all the time for no reason.

I'm only joking a little bit -- I think your suggestion is valuable. I forgot if I mentioned it, but a tool that works well for me along these lines is again a BSFT exercise: don't put yourself on the hook for always being happy and gung-ho, instead, notice the things in your life you'd like to remain as they are. Make sure you notice those.

This works for me because I might have trouble summoning gratitude or happiness, but I am capable of appreciation: oh, the bus was on time today. I'd like that to stay this way. I made my bed and brushed my teeth. Those are things that I'd like to keep happening. It removes the pressure to perform happiness and opens the door to calm appreciation of the mundane.

Crusader
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:16 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Crusader »

ertyu wrote:
Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:55 pm
I'm a Slav, we don't have the Calvinist predestination thing where it's a moral imperative to be joyful happy and excited to demonstrate that you're one of god's chosen and not be shunned by your community. So we walk around being sourpusses and wonder whether Americans are dim or something, to walk around smiling all the time for no reason.
Ahahaha, this made me laugh... also, as a fellow Slav, can confirm!
ertyu wrote:
Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:55 pm
My problem is I'm too tightly specialized, my job is my job and my next job would be pretty much the same as this job.
I can relate to this so much. I think that this actually also might have to do with some Slavic stereotype (#notall) whereby work is supposed to be "work" and not "fun". I realized that I am too bored at my own job, but just switching companies wouldn't do it for me, as it would essentially be the same job (for probably more money but also stress... but I have enough stress already), so I basically started doing random crap at my job that passed as work. All this is to say that maybe you can keep some of your old specialized job and branch into something else that feels more enjoyable... I also am trying to change this perception that job = not fun. When my therapist got me to describe my (old) job and why I work there, her response was like "WTF do you still work there if you hate it so much?".

ertyu
Posts: 2893
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:31 am

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

Crusader wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:03 am
work is supposed to be "work" and not "fun"....When my therapist got me to describe my (old) job and why I work there, her response was like "WTF do you still work there if you hate it so much?".
I honestly think the transition to market economy did a number on my generation and the generation of my parents. People were completely unprepared. My parents, for example, were in their thirties. They grew up and matured as adults in a system where employment was a non-issue, someone was going to find you something to work. And then suddenly, there's one of the worst economic crises there's ever been, and it's not over in a year, a wholescale structural adjustment was needed so it took 10+ years for things to turn around. Suddenly you could lose your job, and even if you didn't, you and your family would still be living in poverty and deprivation. The poverty was deep and it lasted a long time, and it tainted people's understanding of what a market economy is. They raised their children like that, too. I remember trying to talk to my father about choosing a profession which is at least somewhat fulfilling. His response was, "Quit being precious and get a job!" Wanting to work something satisfying was not how I should be; it had to be stomped out of me by shouting.

Now, my father was a piece of shit, but in this respect, I don't think he's unusual. You see the same thing in working class vs. middle and upper class in the US: the working class thinks you slave and you do your work, and you should be glad for a bathroom break. People are "snowflakes," "no one wants to work anymore," etcetera. The working class needs to survive and endure their jobs; the question of deriving any deeper satisfaction from your work is meaningless except in exceptional cases.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I think poverty does people's heads in -- and I think the crises in the former eastern block were particularly virulent in that respect. If it turns out it gives people ptsd, I won't be surprised. "But why don't you just quit?" is a different sort of decision when you come from that psychological place vs. when you grew up baseline alright.
Last edited by ertyu on Thu Dec 22, 2022 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Crusader
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:16 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Crusader »

I've been thinking about something ever since I read it the other day (source: https://teachyourselfcs.com/):

There are 2 types of software engineer: those who understand computer science well enough to do challenging, innovative work, and those who just get by because they’re familiar with a few high level tools.

Both call themselves software engineers, and both tend to earn similar salaries in their early careers. But Type 1 engineers progress toward more fulfilling and well-remunerated work over time, whether that’s valuable commercial work or breakthrough open-source projects, technical leadership or high-quality individual contributions.


I think that IF one becomes this "type 1" engineer (in whatever your equivalent field is), it might bring more job satisfaction (at the cost of more effort). Of course, the ERE route is to just say "fuck this shit" and quit early. To circle back to the Eastern Europe discussion, I don't think it is in the culture to become a "type 1" engineer. It is in the culture to "get a job" and the more it pays, the better.

zbigi
Posts: 978
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:04 pm

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by zbigi »

@ertyu @Crusader as a fellow EE-eaner, I concur with everything you wrote. The crisis of the nineties also hit us hard in Poland - for a large part of the population, it was sink or swim, and many didn't manage to swim.

@Crusader I think the Type 1 engineer thing is true... if you live in the US. Everywhere else, there's so few software-related innovative companies around that they can actually pay much LESS for doing hard and difficult work, not more. In the US, if you want to do difficult technical work, you can get a job at Intel, NVidia, Epic Games, Microsoft, Google or one of the many other places that are currently on the forefront of software-related innovations. Whereas, in Europe for example, there's hardly anything - so, if a company is actually working on something interesting, it's swamped by people starved for ambitious and interesting work - to the degree that it can pay them 50% of what a bank would pay for generic monkey work.

ertyu
Posts: 2893
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:31 am

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

Crusader wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:16 am
I don't think it is in the culture to become a "type 1" engineer. It is in the culture to "get a job" and the more it pays, the better.
Completely correct, it is also ingrained in me that you choose the job with the highest pay and you endure what it takes to get that pay. The idea that you work to exercise mastery or creativity, or that you work in order to accumulate a portfolio of desirable skills, is western "snowflake" shit i read on the internet. It takes consciously choosing to go against your programming--and struggling with a lot of guilt and anxiety in the process--to allow yourself to go from money first to skills first in your thinking. Deep down I definitely think that "portfolio of skills" interesting work is a luxury and for other people even if intellectually I might want to think differently.

avalok
Posts: 277
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:42 am
Location: West Midlands, UK; Walkscore 73

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by avalok »

Crusader wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:16 am
There are 2 types of software engineer: those who understand computer science well enough to do challenging, innovative work, and those who just get by because they’re familiar with a few high level tools.
This touches on one of the biggest realisations I had from my first read of the ERE book: the pervasive bias towards specifics. I'm not sure if it is cultural, but much emphasis is placed on the narrow and specific over broad and general. Software engineers obsess over the best/latest tools and tech stacks; newspapers obsess over the current story of the week; consumers focus on products. It seems the type 1 engineer understands (at least in their domain) the power of generalities: that they are useful heuristics/patterns/processes that can be applied regardless of the specific tool/tech used. These generalities have much greater lifespans than specifics also, meaning the type 1 can remain useful for longer without having to reskill. For example, many web frameworks have come and gone over the past two decades, yet the design patterns these frameworks are built on (MVC, MVVM etc) are still around.

I think being type 1 in a field is actually more pro-ERE than it first appears because the payoff is greater for longer. A type 1 can remain relevant for longer than a type 2, meaning a return to work is easier; there is greater potential to apply lessons learnt in their field to other domains; professional work is likely more fulfilling (and less stressful), allowing one to blur the narrative on the work for x years, then FIRE model.

Crusader
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:16 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Crusader »

ertyu wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 3:32 am
The idea that you work to exercise mastery or creativity, or that you work in order to accumulate a portfolio of desirable skills, is western "snowflake" shit i read on the internet. It takes consciously choosing to go against your programming--and struggling with a lot of guilt and anxiety in the process--to allow yourself to go from money first to skills first in your thinking.
I am a little bit confused. Are you saying that you should be more like a "snowflake", or are you criticizing the "snowflake" culture? I think it's a spectrum, and given my own background (Slavic, work for the money to survive, get the first job that comes along and be happy with it), I think I could benefit from the "snowflake" philosophy.

zbigi wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:42 am
I think the Type 1 engineer thing is true... if you live in the US. Everywhere else, there's so few software-related innovative companies around that they can actually pay much LESS for doing hard and difficult work, not more.
But I thought that the point is not to get paid more, but to have more fulfilling work, no? Anyway, how big the job market is definitely changes things, but I think that what you are talking about is changing, because of the cheaper cost of labour in these countries. I am from Serbia, and Microsoft has a huge development center there. You are from Poland and I know that Google has an office in Warsaw. Is it at the forefront of innovative work? Probably not, but there is still choice.

What I struggle with is that I just don't really care that much either way, and I don't know if it's a problem I should/can change. I like learning and am endlessly curious about how stuff works, but I don't care about making some company grow over the competition. I don't care about "company culture" and I don't have this competitive spirit to "row with the team" to beat "others". What team? I am only a part of this team because I needed a job and you were hiring!

ertyu
Posts: 2893
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:31 am

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by ertyu »

Crusader wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:54 am
I am a little bit confused. Are you saying that you should be more like a "snowflake", or are you criticizing the "snowflake" culture? I think it's a spectrum, and given my own background (Slavic, work for the money to survive, get the first job that comes along and be happy with it), I think I could benefit from the "snowflake" philosophy.
I mean that according to the culture i grew up in and the attitudes in my family of origin, people who care about those things are snowflakes. then, after i read some, i decided that even though it might be a good thing to approach work that way, that attitude is for others, not for me. In part, I thought that that attitude was for westerners -- even though i was educated in the west since I turned 15 and at liberal-arts-y insititutions, too, i still never thought that this applies to me. To this day, deep down I feel a deep fear of poverty and lack. The thought that I wouldn't grind at the highest paid job I can get regardless of the conditions or their impact on me fills me with anxiety. When I inevitably burned out and got fired, it filled me with even more anxiety, because what if i can't work now. what if i can't keep another job.

the answer is, of course, that i have savings and i will be alright for a non-zero period of time, but that is not enough to quell the anxiety. I am not entitled to any state pension, so any drawdown on these savings is robbing peter to pay paul. the rational suggestion here is, well move to the EU and get enough work history to get a pension. but then the fear arises that 1. in the eu, my savings will burn much faster, 2. in the eu, i will have to work full time, and working full time leads to intense burn-out, and 3. that the eu, the euro, and thus the eu pensions aren't stable either (geopolitical threat of eu dissolution or a currency breakdown in the euro). and so on. to take action, i need to square with the guilt that i am not working as hard as i could be working to earn the highest pay possible and the anxiety around money, survival, and poverty.

Crusader
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:16 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by Crusader »

Well, fuck. What you write rings a little bit too true to my own life. I don't know if I can offer any useful advice, but what I did is surround myself with people that are different from me so that I try to learn from them (even just being around them helps). If I see that someone has a good relationship with work that I like, or even just the loving, good family relations.

That is to say, my response (and I think it is a good response) to my initial reaction of "snowflake" culture or just people who are different than me is to see if they have something that would benefit me to integrate, and in many cases, there is. If I was an RPG character, I would strive to be a balanced character, as opposed to a min-maxed character.

Lastly, if you want my therapist/life coach/whatever's contact info, let me know, it might be helpful. It took me quite a long time to find someone that fits good with my background (western education, but didn't live in the west growing up, now doesn't really fit in culturally anywhere, etc...).

zbigi
Posts: 978
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:04 pm

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by zbigi »

@ertyu

On the anxieties caused by possible negative scenarios (your pension in euros losing its value in the future etc.). My current take on this is to have something to live for. Something that excites me and that I wouldn't mind spending my life on (spending in a literal sense too, e.g. potentially risking some problems in the old age). In my experience, pursposeless living leads to exactly these kind of worries you're experiencing. Whereas, for people living with a purpose, they probably seem absolutely silly - they accept the fact that there definitely WILL be problems, but they don't mind that as much, because their day to day life is filled with meaning.

not sure
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:34 pm

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by not sure »

ertyu wrote:
Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:55 pm
I'm a Slav
I must be a "recovering" Slav or something! :mrgreen:
Funny fact - my first boss (who is a Canadian) used to say that if he saw a beautiful girl with a sour expression, he knew she was Russian.

Glad that BSFT is working for you, and appreciation goes a long way, whether expressed to yourself or to others.
On this note - I appreciate you contributing to the journals and the threads on this forum! Yours is a valuable perspective.

AnalyticalEngine
Posts: 949
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:57 am

Re: 3 yrs to FI: ertyu's journal

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

ertyu wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 3:32 am
The idea that you work to exercise mastery or creativity, or that you work in order to accumulate a portfolio of desirable skills, is western "snowflake" shit i read on the internet. It takes consciously choosing to go against your programming--and struggling with a lot of guilt and anxiety in the process--to allow yourself to go from money first to skills first in your thinking. Deep down I definitely think that "portfolio of skills" interesting work is a luxury and for other people even if intellectually I might want to think differently.
This is a great point and something I've been thinking about a lot with the WL5->WL6 transition. You have to start prioritizing life skills and experiences outside of money, and that's a very difficult paradigm shift. I think in the West, the internal pushback comes more from feeling like a "loser" because net worth and monetary success is valued so high in the US. It's interesting to read how a similar mental block can have very different causes in other cultures. Going against the social norm is always hard, and it seems like many societies and social classes discourage WL6 thinking.

Post Reply