White Trash Book Smart

Where are you and where are you going?
ertyu
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by ertyu »

Correct, the level of one's libido has no bearing on whether one (1) wants to be in a relationship* and (b) wants to be a parent. It's a lazy mental shortcut (mostly heterosexual males) that one gets into a relationship to get sex. Many indeed do, but imo it's misguided. Or maybe im just speaking my bias -- I don't see what the big deal is about partnered sex that would justify the many and varied negatives of being in a relationship with someone incompatible.

*one's libido has no bearing on who one wants to be in a relationship with either. there are people who are sexually attracted to one gender but prefer to have romantic etc. relationships with the other. thus the terms homoromantic/heteroromantic/biromantic and homosexual/heterosexual/bisexual are things that exist. we're a weird species.

with time, i've arrived at, "tell me how you work, tell me what you call it, and i'll call it that." i very much work on a person by person basis and assume nothing.

M
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by M »

chenda wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:15 am
But presumably they were not all accidents ?

I suspect some asexual people do want and indeed have children.
They were not accidents, no.

My original intention was to not have children because mental illness runs in my family and I was abused as a child and grew up in foster care some and was then adopted. I did not want children because I did not think I should be the one reproducing in the world.

I have a huge sex drive though and my wife was the sexiest girl in the school and always wanted a large family. This was a deal breaker for her. If I wanted to be with her I had to agree to get her pregnant a lot and have a large family.

I could have left her, but she was the most attractive girl I had seen or been with by far and the constant romance and sex was ... AMAZING... I had sex with other girls before but the sex was mediocre in comparison.

I am hyper sexual and hopeless romantic so I agreed to her life plans.

I have no regrets at all. I love my wife and children but it is an expensive lifestyle to maintain.

My point is that hyper sexuality may not be best for a hetero male to achieve ERE. Trying to limit dating pool to girls who do not want children, and who will pay for half of all expenses, and who are the most sexually attractive in your school or area, and who also want to have sex multiple times every day is challenging.

I have met people who are asexual but who still want children. This can also make ERE more challenging to achieve, especially if they want a large number of children.

Perhaps ideal for ERE would be someone who is asexual, aromantic, does not want children but who loves room mates.

M
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by M »

ertyu wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:30 am
Correct, the level of one's libido has no bearing on whether one (1) wants to be in a relationship* and (b) wants to be a parent. It's a lazy mental shortcut (mostly heterosexual males) that one gets into a relationship to get sex. Many indeed do, but imo it's misguided. Or maybe im just speaking my bias -- I don't see what the big deal is about partnered sex that would justify the many and varied negatives of being in a relationship with someone incompatible.

*one's libido has no bearing on who one wants to be in a relationship with either. there are people who are sexually attracted to one gender but prefer to have romantic etc. relationships with the other. thus the terms homoromantic/heteroromantic/biromantic and homosexual/heterosexual/bisexual are things that exist. we're a weird species.

with time, i've arrived at, "tell me how you work, tell me what you call it, and i'll call it that." i very much work on a person by person basis and assume nothing.
I suspect this might be different depending on the person in question. I have found partnered sex much more satisfying, and even noticed a huge difference in sexual satisfaction depending on the girl I had sex with.

Sexual thoughts have also always dominated my thinking. I think about women and sex more than I think about food and prefer sex over pizza.

I have problems, lol. :lol:

But yeah - trying to find 100% compatible partner was impossible for me, but letting go of sex was also impossible...

ertyu
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by ertyu »

Pizza here :lol:
I don't think it's problems, i think it's wiring and then it gets reinforced environmentally. For instance, my family of origin is quite dysfunctional. For some, this could have led to overcompensating and being much more motivated than normal to secure and keep a partner. For me, it led to thinking that solitude is nice and if someone isn't compatible, there's no way in hell im risking *that*. Who determines which way you'll go in response to a dysfunctional upbringing? Imo wiring.

7Wannabe5
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

M wrote: extremely frugal hetero male calling typical hetero female to pick him up in her car because he does not own a car, then refuse to pay for her food on the date, then take her back to his place where he has no couch or TV or hot water may not sexually arouse typical female human.
M wrote:n a world where typical woman sees man's gifts and food as part of courtship and flirting, and sex demand is much higher among men than women, I think ERE can make sex more challenging for hetero male to obtain due to a more limited dating pool.
I want to split the rather important difference often made fuzzy in these two statements. First off, the type of courtship behavior that might make a woman feel more secure or safe moving forward with a particular man is not necessarily/usually the courtship behavior that will make her feel more excited or sexually aroused moving forward with a particular man. For instance, there are plenty of men in the current environment who are baffled by why being "nice guy who makes good income" isn't working for them, while good looking broke-azz "loser" who plays guitar at the local bar has no trouble luring women into the back of his dilapidated van.

The truth is women will often "shop" for different characteristics depending on whether they are looking for a fling or a long-term relationship. No different than choosing a flashy sports car for weekend rental vs. suburbo wagon for long-term soccer mom lifestyle purchase. There is definitely some truth to the evolutionary biology based theories about male vs. female sexual strategy, but IMO they are too often used to reinforce cultural norms.

Anyways, it's perfectly possible to signal that you think someone is special or worth some effort to obtain as partner without spending great deal of money:

Offer 1: Hey-why don't you come over to my place tonight around 11 pm and pick up a pizza on your way?
My thought: Ha- you wish. How do I work the block feature on this dating app?

Offer 2: Hello-Are you free for dinner on Friday at 6? Would you prefer to meet at Bistro Expensivo, or I can pick you up?
My thought: Sure, why not?

Offer 3: Hi- I am making some soup from a butternut squash variety I hybridized myself. Would you like to go on a bike ride to the (free) jazz festival in the park tomorrow and give me your opinion on the soup?
My thought: Fun!
ertyu wrote:*one's libido has no bearing on who one wants to be in a relationship with either. there are people who are sexually attracted to one gender but prefer to have romantic etc. relationships with the other. thus the terms homoromantic/heteroromantic/biromantic and homosexual/heterosexual/bisexual are things that exist. we're a weird species.

with time, i've arrived at, "tell me how you work, tell me what you call it, and i'll call it that." i very much work on a person by person basis and assume nothing.
Very true about diff between who you find romantic vs. sexual vs. FITB. This comes up quite a bit in polyamory across gender, but also different divisions such as personality type, Dom/sub, or physical type. I agree that assuming nothing is best practice. In one short course on sexuality I studied, the point was made that the math very quickly works out to prove that there are more possible sexual personas than there are humans on the planet.

ETA: Hard call for me on sex vs. the cookies :lol:

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:06 pm
There is definitely some truth to the evolutionary biology based theories about male vs. female sexual strategy, but IMO they are too often used to reinforce cultural norms.
That and I find people often use them to project how they experience their sexuality onto the entire species. Of course, human sexual behavior is driven by both biology and sociology, but you have to be very, very specific/careful with those theories to avoid merely projecting your experience.

I find people have a tendency to do this with hunter gathers too. Ie, hunter gatherers were more violent than modern man, they were more peaceful, they had more sex, they had less sex, they had more genders, they had less genders, they lived to be 120 years old, they died at 30, etc.

chenda
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by chenda »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:45 am
I find people have a tendency to do this with hunter gathers too. Ie, hunter gatherers were more violent than modern man, they were more peaceful, they had more sex, they had less sex, they had more genders, they had less genders, they lived to be 120 years old, they died at 30, etc.
Yes I've definitely noticed that too. Whilst there is undoubtedly many things we can learn from the few extant hunter gatherer groups, they only survived into the modern era in a few peripheral areas. We know very little about the hunter gatherers of say Doggerland or the Yangtze valley, or pretty much anywhere civilisation arose. There's also a tendency to assume their cultures were static and monolithic, whereas they may well have been as diverse and as evolving as modern global culture.

M
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by M »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:45 am
That and I find people often use them to project how they experience their sexuality onto the entire species. Of course, human sexual behavior is driven by both biology and sociology, but you have to be very, very specific/careful with those theories to avoid merely projecting your experience.

I find people have a tendency to do this with hunter gathers too. Ie, hunter gatherers were more violent than modern man, they were more peaceful, they had more sex, they had less sex, they had more genders, they had less genders, they lived to be 120 years old, they died at 30, etc.
Yes - admittingly I am just projecting here as well. All of my sexual experience has been in the context of a relationship.

The few times a girl just offered sex freely without being my girlfriend/wife/friend first I was so shocked I actually declined. That and I was worried about STDs. This is just not common - for me anyway.

I know some guys can just show up in a delapitated van and play the guitar somewhere and get laid and I've always been jealous of guys who can pull this off.

Maybe I should have learned how to play the guitar. :lol:

shaz
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by shaz »

FWIW any time women of my acquaintance have been interested in a guy who showed up with a dilapidated van and played guitar, it has been because they assumed drugs were on offer in addition to sex. Projecting "I have drugs and am willing to share" might be more important than the quality of musicianship.

chenda
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by chenda »

shaz wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:08 pm
it has been because they assumed drugs were on offer in addition to sex. Projecting "I have drugs and am willing to share" might be more important than the quality of musicianship.
Yes indeed, though the sex is best avoided as in my experience they tend to be riddled.

7Wannabe5
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@shaz@chenda:

Too cynical! :lol: I mean, it's not the case that all the 14 year old girls screaming in the audience of a Beatles' documentary were looking for drugs. The emotional connection is key. I do drugs about as often as Jacob buys lotto tickets, but I've always had a bit of a thing for musicians. Sexual selection doesn't always loop right back tight with survival mechanisms. The males of many species woo with bright plumage and song. Also, within the context of small community, the guy fronting the band playing at the only bar in town may project relative status/fame.

chenda
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by chenda »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:00 am
The males of many species woo with bright plumage and song. Also, within the context of small community, the guy fronting the band playing at the only bar in town may project relative status/fame.
haha, when I was much younger I used to attend such a music venue, you are absolutely right. Though the performers were often quite generous in sharing their drugs, which was an added bonus because it seems so cool when your 18. Unfortunately one of them also shared his Chlamydia with me which wasn't so cool. He has since become quite a well known musician, but my smug 'I-knew-you-before-you-were-famous' is rather tempered by memories of embarrassing hospital visits. Anyway, I made it a rule afterwards to avoid musicians as I deem them high risk :lol:

7Wannabe5
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@chenda:

Ouch! I’m also off the musicians, but more because over the long-run I don’t want to be relatively drab plumage always doing the dishes partner.

chenda
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by chenda »

On a list of 149 countries‘ Gini indices (link to CIA World Factbook), the female dating economy is the 75th most unequal (think European Union). The male dating economy is the 8th most unequal (think Subsaharan failed state).

Another study on Tinder showed that “the bottom 80% of men in terms of attractiveness) are competing for their bottom 22% of women, and the top 78% of women are competing for the top 20% of men.”

The second conclusion from these studies clearly reveal a female preference for polygyny — a social system where a small percentage of men monopolize the mating opportunities with almost all females, and many other males have no access to mates...In fact, polygyny is the natural state of nature for most species. And while humans have been able to create social structures to enforce monogamy, once we log on to dating apps, we enter a world built on shadows of the social structures of our primeval savannah ancestors.
https://medium.com/@bellehookwrite/attr ... 0cbee8e4db

7Wannabe5
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@chenda:

Interesting article. I'm going to move this discussion to Polyamory Support thread, because there's another video related to the topic from the Stoa which I'd like to provide as supplement.

shelob
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by shelob »

Hello 7Wannabe5,
I hope that you're well. I was really glad to see that you've started another journal, and I've been reading with great interest. I sort of had a thing over the summer with a guy who already had a primary open relationship. I think that technically counts as poly so I'm no longer reading just to live vicariously :lol: . I'm not sure what conclusions to draw from the experience though, other than that I seriously need to up my game.
You made a comment in another thread about recommending books a bit to that effect, and I think you probably have already done that somewhere, but I can't find it so I was wondering if you could tell me where.
Best wishes and let us hear from your exploits!

llorona
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by llorona »

AHA! Here you are. Shelob's post led me to your latest journal. How are you feeling??

7Wannabe5
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@llorona:

I'm doing much better. Maybe back to 85% functioning vs. 35% functioning before treatment. Inflammation markers are at near normal level.

@shelob:

Unfortunately, I'm not totally sure what books I was referring to in the context of that thread, but Deida's "It's a Guy Thing: An Owner's Manual for Women" was probably one of them.
Your man may be moved to cherish you and protect you in a certain way, not because you are weak, but because you are radiant, precious and beautiful tohim. He knows when you have to go out and compete in the masculine-dominated business world, you will have to dampen your radiance and take up the sword, to some extent. He may want to relieve you of this obligation. On the other hand, you might really enjoy and excel at business. It's an individual matter. You and your man will have to learn your unique ways of gifting to each other.
- emphasis mine.

There's a whole lot of backstory to the rather miserable perspective I was inhabiting when I first read this book when I was in my late 30s. It was recommended by a male member of my marriage/divorce support group. At first, I was repelled by and completely rejected sexual dichotomy theory. Then I tried it and discovered that it worked remarkably, almost shockingly, well. Then I tried to figure out "Why?" Then I kind of piece-meal subverted it for my own purposes/amusement into Lentil Baby concept. I do NOT necessarily recommend this developmental path to others.

white belt
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by white belt »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:03 pm
I think it's somewhat ironic that one of the primary puzzles I was trying to solve by delving into ERE2 theory/terminology was how to talk about ERE1 to the members of my social circle who might best be described as broke-azz artsy Bohemian uber-liberal types without triggering instant allergic reaction to whiff of "antisocial techbros." Almost like I was imagining being the matchmaking matron hostessing a party where some financially secure young folk from this forum might meet some hippie permaculture types and magically mate and morph up to higher Wheaton Level.

Otherwise, when I think about a neighborhood inhabited by a member of this forum in every other house, I immediately go to the fact that on average any household member of this forum is likely to be more normative and more social, so they will likely make contact with each other first, and next thing you know there's a SOs and Adult Children of ERE Forum Members Support Group meeting at Applebee's every Thursday night to bond over shared experiences such as "Refrigiwear suit for your last anniversary present? Me too!!" , "My Mom stored rolled oats she bought at a food auction in a garbage can she found on the curb." , "Mine gave me "The Knowledge: How to Recreate Civilization After The Coming Apocalypse" for Christmas present!"
Moving the above discussion to this journal becuase I think it's tangential at best to the other thread but I'd like to further discuss it.

What do you think has worked/not worked in trying to translate ERE concepts to your social circle? I find myself in similar situations often, whether it be with DGF's conservative southern family or my own more liberal yuppie friends. Usually, I just try to highlight aspects of the lifestyle that I know will appeal to particular archetypes and conveniently leave out some "unappealing details," but haven't gotten much past that.

7Wannabe5
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Re: White Trash Book Smart

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

white belt wrote:What do you think has worked/not worked in trying to translate ERE concepts to your social circle?
I think the first problem is that my semi-ERE-like lifestyle is not very marketable or envied by others. This is because it has primarily manifested as:

1) Freedom to -spend a great deal of time reading. (Desirable to less than 5% population.)
2) Freedom to- do weird gardening projects in dangerous urban neighborhoods or rural locations near where the right-wing militia practices shooting. (Desirable to less than 5% population.)
3) Freedom to- date three grouchy old guys at the same time. (Desirable to less than .05% of population.)
4) Freedom to- work part-time/flexible/self-employed at something(s) that are net-positive for society such as reselling used books or tutoring kids in math. (Desirable to less than 25% of population.)

Overall lifestyle desirablity -give or take for independence of factors- less than 0.01% of population.

I would probably make a better spokesmodel for the concept if I used my free time to:

1) Work more towards higher net worth/financial optionality. (Desirable to > 90%)
2) Get into great shape physically. (Desirable to > 90%)
3) Travel and take photos. (Desirable to > 90%)

My second difficulty in promoting the concept would be that I tend towards arguing the Libertarian POV while in the company of Socialists and vice-versa etc. The best I can do is preface my remarks with something like "I am only arguing this POV because I am aware of it, not because I endorse it in full." IOW, I frequently err on the side of trying to make the conversation interesting (to me) rather than trying to further accord.

My third difficulty would be that quite a few people in my social circle are smarter than me, so they can shut me up (temporarily) with some pretty good arguments or observations of their own. Tomas Bjorkman in "The World We Create: From God to Market." outlines the reasons why intelligent humans with post-modern perspective can pretty much always out-argue intelligent humans with modern perspective, and this is dead-on with my experience. So, if I try to argue in favor of ERE from Conventional Modern and/or Libertarian-Like perspective, rather than well-developed Systems or Metamodern perspective, I will lose the argument. For overly simplistic instance, it is kind of difficult to argue against "ERE only works well for privileged minority of population."

My fourth difficulty would be that saying stuff like "The planet is going to burn up unless average human spending drops to less than $7000/year." is even less likely to be well received than talking about the gruesome symptoms I suffer with Crohn's disease. The usual reaction when I make this observation is Dead-Stare-of-Denial.

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