Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

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AxelHeyst
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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by AxelHeyst »

Scott2, Fair enough. I do think it's due to some extent to MMG darknetting, as we've been discussing. But I also think that some tweaks to MMG design can reverse the trend and even inject more and stronger "make this shape" style content than we've had previously. I'm very appreciative of this entire conversation and feel positively about how it's going to nudge the trajectory of the community in the future.

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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by jacob »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:47 pm
I put a lot of effort into finding expert yoga teachers. One of the most experienced - her instructions were simply "make this shape". At one point, when I was failing to make the shape - she walked over and dug her nails into my shoulders. Immediate correction. The marks were there for hours.

I'd been through hours of instruction on the shape. I'd read dozens of pages. But, language has inherit limitations. Adding complexity didn't bridge them. The frameworks made communication more difficult. A few seconds hands on was what it took. She learned in the same way, from a man who was ESL.
Language has a lot of limitations. This is ever more obvious the more languages one speaks. English, German, Danish, there are ideas that are more easily expressed in one language than another. Words and grammar vs math or coding. Same thing. Ditto bodily movement. Try to communicate doing a somersault using words. Vocabulary and life experiences even more so. An orchestra has a greater repertoire than a single bongo drum. Different constructs.

Philosophers of the liberal arts humanities who claim that we're all but own own fictional narratives are about as annoying as physicists thinking we're all part of a quantum computer simulation. They may be right, but since we can't know, that's a really limiting perspective.
Scott 2 wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:47 pm
Often people here are trying to think their way through, when they have to learn via experience. I also think it puts off the people who have already learned via experience, but didn't go down the framework rabbit hole. A framework may be useful for contextualizing after the fact, but it's not a map.
I agree with that too.

The situations where I still experience friction is how "If I raise one corner for someone and he cannot come back with the other three, I do not go on.” ― Confucius. I don't have the energy or desire to provide quick & easy & simple solutions all the way up and down the chain. There's a shit-ton of info out there already insofar people go look for it. Information is free. But knowledge isn't. Gotta put in a personal effort to upload and arrange it into one's brain.

As far as I see the ERE forums, they're part of a greater whole. The first level includes the book, the blog, and the wiki.
At the next level it's part of the FIRE movement, Deep Adaption or Peak Oil, but also increasingly the liminal web.
They're a subset of many things. The 21st century overall.

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jennypenny
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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by jennypenny »

LOL ...

group #1: Why is there less engagement now?

group #2: (reengages to answer) Because all of the jargon and theory makes us feel uncomfortable posting.

group #1: But jargon and theory and complexity are so important! Mapping and Models are necessary to any meaningful conversation!

group #2: Are you sure? Have you tried communicating with less jargon?

group #1: Yes, but it doesn't work. We can't say exactly what we mean without all the jargon, and our satisfaction with the conversation is paramount. We have to use it!

group #2: Ok. (disengages again)

--------

@jacob — While you (and daylen, et al) are comfortable with the current tenor of discourse on the forum, it's dysfunctional (linguistically) if most of the people with whom you would like to communicate aren't comfortable with it. It's not a trilemma, it's accuracy vs. functionality. It's your lab so you get to set the scales, but the number of active participants is related to the setting.

daylen
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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by daylen »

Such demonstrates a generator function of tribal conflict in action. Part of which is illustrated and explained by spiral dynamics in a certain way. Other ways are always welcome to provide alternative angles to conflicts that pop up periodically (and predictably). It all comes full circle so that one of the attractors of ERE is that comfort is valued low relative to autonomy.

We don't want to be getting too comfortable with each other. :P

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jennypenny
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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by jennypenny »

@jacob -- If this wasn't the conversation you intended to have and were only looking at ways to keep WL 5-6 engaged on the forum, the problem might be inherent in the stages. For WL 1-3 & 7-9, money isn’t their biggest asset. For WL 4-6 it is, or more accurately they believe that it is, hence the increased desire for darkness at that stage.

Thinking about it, willingness to give up that anonymity might be a sign that someone has leveled up.


@daylen -- I assume you're trying to be funny? If not, well ... the game is on, I'm going to go root for Mexico now.

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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by daylen »

It takes a lot of effort on my half to collapse the superposition of intentional humor and honesty.

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jennypenny
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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by jennypenny »

whew...

those emojis can be useful ;)

:)

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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by jacob »

jennypenny wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:47 pm
LOL ...

group #1: Why is there less engagement now?

group #2: (reengages to answer) Because all of the jargon and theory makes us feel uncomfortable posting.

group #1: But jargon and theory and complexity are so important! Mapping and Models are necessary to any meaningful conversation!

group #2: Are you sure? Have you tried communicating with less jargon?

group #1: Yes, but it doesn't work. We can't say exactly what we mean without all the jargon, and our satisfaction with the conversation is paramount. We have to use it!

group #2: Ok. (disengages again)
It's Wheaton levels all over again, except it's happening in 2D. (But understanding this SNAFU is the exact goal of ERE2)

#1: Why is there less engagement?
#2: Because we don't feel like explaining the same things over and over again?
#1: But keeping it simple should be easy when you're so smart! Simplicity is important for maximum inclusion and conversation.
#2: Yes, but have you ever used most of the day explaining yourself only to have the same person or multiple different people asking the same question over and over without paying attention to the answer?
#1: But it seems like you know all the answers, so why can't I just ask so you and I can have a conversation?
#2: Because it's exhausting to explain everything and everywhere at length. (disengages again)

Maybe going from WL3 to WL9 on a single forum is too much of a stretch. It definitely introduces more potential failure points.

Add: I don't intend for this to be aggressive or as aggressive as it may sound. But it's not a joke either. The exhaustion is real. P enjoys process. J enjoys results.

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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by jacob »

jennypenny wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:08 pm
Thinking about it, willingness to give up that anonymity might be a sign that someone has leveled up.
Yes. Magnanimity obtains from reaching a position of optionality. Some options, like anonymity, can be discarded.

rref
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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by rref »

jacob wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:27 pm
#2: Yes, but have you ever used most of the day explaining yourself only to have the same person or multiple different people asking the same question over and over without paying attention to the answer?
The oldschool internet solution to this was FAQ + RTFM. Wiki pages like "ERE Wheaton Levels" but for spiral dynamics, Keegan etc. in the ERE context.

mathiverse
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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by mathiverse »

I want to bring Fish's comment from another thread here since it's relevant.
Fish wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:02 pm
Thank you for your interest. Due to the ongoing meta-discussion about MMGs and their contribution to a forum death spiral, I am not processing sign-ups at this time. In fact, I’m thinking about disbanding this MMG with the hope that its “discussion energy” returns to the main forum.

MMGs which focus on specific skills and activities don’t seem to pose as much of a forum threat as FI MMGs which take the ERE journey dark. It would not be helpful for those who follow us to see a progression of:

1. I started a journal on the forums,
2. I joined a MMG,
3. ???
4. Now I’m ERE

A cultural difference between MMG and main forum is the expectation that journal updates will be met with replies. The feedback offers encouragement and insight to the author. This motivates behavioral changes and the writing of another update.

On the main forum, I see many journals (particularly those of new and lesser-known forumites) where the authors are essentially talking to themselves. Eventually the journals are abandoned. Presumably to address this problem we should suggest people to participate in discussions and others’ journals before starting a journal of their own. That might make for more interaction and constructive behavior that provides some of the value of a MMG without the conversation going dark.

Basically, what I’ve just described is forming your own public MMG by interacting with the forumites you want to get feedback from. No guarantees it will work but it’s better than quietly hoping for a reply to your journal.

Alternatively, we could be more intentional about it by starting a thread for “journal feedback requests” which would identify who is interested. Or designate a forum member to coordinate such requests via PM. It would function like a temporary MMG where participants agree to write something constructive in exchange for feedback on their own situation. If anyone is actually interested in this I would be willing to run the first iteration to get it going. Or feel free to take the idea and run with it.

Miss Lonelyhearts
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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by Miss Lonelyhearts »

My contribution, unfinished (others feel free to chip in improve or wikify:

Spiral Dynamics (SD), All Quadrants All Levels (AQAL) — for background see bios and works of Don Beck, Ken Wilber; intro series of YouTube videos by Leo Gura (actualized.org), useful crib sheets by anonymous YouTube commenter (TK)

Myers-Briggs Type Indicator — 16-type personality inventory derived from psychological theorizing of Carl Jung by mother-daughter team Kathryn Myers and Isabella Briggs (TK name check). Originally envisioned as tool to aid wartime career assignments I think (?). For more see bio of Jung, his book Psychological Types (link TK) and other works; David Keirsey (Please Understand Me vol I & II), many websites (Truity, etc), wiki etc

Big Five personality traits — measure of openness to experience, extroversion (defined differently from MBTI), conscientiousness, agreeableness, and neuroticism (negative emotionality). For more see any introductory psych text, wiki, etc. Somewhat underdiscussed here imo.

Kegan Levels — 5 stage model of ego development devised by Harvard psych prof Robert Kegan. For more see his works, esp The Evolving Self

Cippolla stupidity — four quadrant model of human action categorized by gain/loss to self/others. Loss to self and others = you did something stupid. See Cippolla paper

Wheaton Levels — theorized model of progressive expertise where each level is one order of magnitude larger than the one above it (eg 5 billion people at level 1, 500 million at level 2, 50 million at level 3, etc. Air thins quickly at higher levels). Communication across 3+ levels difficult. See post by Paul Wheaton on permies.org defining the idea, many pages of discussions and debate on this board, chart of ERE Wheaton Levels (link TK).

Prepping — for what you ask? Something big. Held to be important by a significant portion of this community. See information about preppers

Learning model, corner lifting — how Jacob prefers you to learn

Cook-Greutzer adult development — 93pp summa of one unaffiliated psychological researcher’s findings on ego stages which engages with many of the models mentioned in this list

The ERE book — “erratic but interesting” -Tyler Cowen

Jacob Lund Fisker — “Danish astrophysicist. . .who lived in an R.V., on seven thousand dollars a year” -The New Yorker

ffj
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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by ffj »

@AxelHeyst

What I am saying is that certain posters and topics are intimidating for new people. It gives the impression, rightly or wrongly, that they are probably not smart enough to contribute. So they don't.

This whole thread is based on probably 10 or 12 of you not contributing to the general forum as much because you've found your soulmates in the MMG's. More power to you btw. But it underscores how small we are and wouldn't it be nice if more people joined and contributed?

So what can we do to attract future Axel's? You can make it more welcoming for people to try it out. How about a nice, friendly outline for the new folks? Condensed and simple to read and follow?

Welcome! We're happy you've visited us.

You'll probably understand us best if you've read the Ere book first, which we highly encourage.

Feel free to lurk, but eventually we would like you to contribute when you feel comfortable.

We just have a few expectations: list goes here

Don't understand the nomenclature? Here's an ERE dictionary

And lastly, we love diversity of thought and would love to hear how you've achieved success, however small. Please don't be intimidated by others who contribute here or feel you have to define or mimic yourself based on others thoughts and lives. Everyone is unique.


Something like that? And I would argue the Wheaten levels and jargon do promote the autotrons you are concerned about. Only like-minded people will even read such stuff, with the believers actually responding to such threads.

It's all a balance with winners and losers.

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Ego
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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by Ego »

Fish wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:02 pm
Thank you for your interest. Due to the ongoing meta-discussion about MMGs and their contribution to a forum death spiral, I am not processing sign-ups at this time. In fact, I’m thinking about disbanding this MMG with the hope that its “discussion energy” returns to the main forum.
Kudos to @fish for leading by example.

Back when the mastermind groups began sprouting, I wondered how much of it was driven by those who wanted to create new ERE-adjacent movements. It is much easier for someone who wants to create a new movement to poach from an existing movement than to build a new one organically from scratch. It is a technique as old as religion. MMGs created the perfect opportunity. I don't believe anyone did anything with the intent to cause harm. It just happened. It didn't really become an obvious problem until the poached stopped participating here.
Last edited by Ego on Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by jacob »

I think it's somewhat underestimated/underappreciated how these ideas went from being from being discussed by just 5-10 people on a few separate blogs on the internet only 15 years ago to being discussed on 500-1000+ blogs with the largest relevant derivative on reddit being 1.5M people strong. Instead of relying on J.R. Random weird guy on the internet, you can read articles about it on the front page mainstream news now. There are documentaries and there is also a movie. Even academia has started to pay attention!

I realize that everybody has to start somewhere. Yet the chain is complete. Do you really want these forums to be taken over by discussions about "who is the best broker", "how do I buy my first stock", "I just saved $100 on my car insurance", "I'm 63 and have saved 3.7M, am I rich enough to retire?", and "I'm so frugal I painted my kitchen cabinets by my very self instead of hiring someone"-threads? That is what occupies 95% of beginner-type forums. Over and over and over. And that's alright if you're into that.

However, there are literally hundreds of alternatives for doing that these days. There's practically something for everyone somewhere now. You can even find it as a regular column on marketwatch these days. You can go down to the nearest bank and ask about a plan for FIRE and they won't look at you as if you have an extra head anymore---they'll actually have some clue as to what you're talking about, including the flexibility to move beyond the "don't have $1M yet" and "willing to spend less than 80% of salary".

Lets remember the other aspect of Paul Wheaton's original Wheaton level talk. There's a billion at level one. 100 million at level two. 10 million at level three. And so on.

The ERE forums remain at the cutting edge. Now that FI is increasingly turning into the starting line rather than the finishing line, we're moving on to the next unsolved problem. The ERE forums are kinda like grad school. The hard kind of grad school. Not the easy kind when people are being handheld for a nice degree only to need further guidance down the road. The hard kind where people are thrown into the deep end, but if they manage to figure out how to swim, they'll have a shot at making their own way outside Plato's Cave.

Too hard-ass? Maybe ... I'd rather not lose that edge. I mean, where else would you go?

Western Red Cedar
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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by Western Red Cedar »

Ego wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:07 pm
It is much easier for someone who wants to create a new movement to poach from an existing movement than to build a new one organically from scratch. It is a technique as old as religion. MMGs created the perfect opportunity. I don't believe anyone did anything with the intent to cause harm. It just happened. It didn't really become an obvious problem until the poached stopped participating here.
I want to push back on this as it seems like a bit of a false narrative running through this thread.

First, Jacob met with the @AH MM group earlier this year excited about the organic growth of the ERE community that MM groups represented. He wanted to encourage new MM groups. We discussed the potential issue of the network effect, and determined that the solution was to establish an expectation that MM members would report back on their projects in either their journals or elsewhere on the forum. This is largely what I've observed. It is sometimes a little difficult to track unless you follow most of the journals. I wrote this post about my personal experiences to encourage others to participate after that conversation with Jacob - viewtopic.php?p=254225#p254225.

Jacob started this thread after that discussion viewtopic.php?t=12274&sid=6feec629eae0e ... 7f6490cb4d.

@AH created a best practices thread to provide feedback on lessons learned - viewtopic.php?t=12263.

Second, I haven't actually noticed a decrease in participation from those involved in MM groups. It seems like locking the politics thread (which is probably a net-gain) and natural attrition after folks achieve some form of FI are actually more significant variables.

Third, these groups (or at least the group I'm in) aren't really that big of a deal. It is just an opportunity for some ERE-minded folks to hop on a video call a couple times a month to talk about personal projects and hold each other accountable. Just nerds talking investments, alternative living, and lentils over coffee on a Sunday morning :D . I've personally found it as a nice extension of the forum, and it has encouraged me to follow-through on ERE goals a little more fervently than I may have without the extra external accountability. Some kind of limits to participation are necessary just to manage the logistics of the group.

@Jacob, feel free to correct me if I'm mischaracterizing something here. I could probably name a couple dozen regular posters who've drifted away over the last few years after reaching FI or because of some kind of political disagreement. I'm not sure I could name more than a couple who stopped posting after joining a MM group. I'm sure you have a much better handle on the numbers though.

*This comment isn't necessarily directed to @ego, but I wanted to offer a different perspective than the narrative that started this conversation.

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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by rref »

Western Red Cedar wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:53 pm
I want to push back on this as it seems like a bit of a false narrative running through this thread.
I follow the forums through RSS and the previously waning activity level has gone up significantly after the MMG issue was addressed explicitly.

Western Red Cedar
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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by Western Red Cedar »

rref wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:11 pm
I follow the forums through RSS and the previously waning activity level has gone up significantly after the MMG issue was addressed explicitly.
I've definitely noticed that too. There is certainly an opportunity to reinvigorate or broaden discussions, as seen on the Ecology MM observation thread - viewtopic.php?t=12571

I'm just not yet convinced that MM participation is taking away from forum participation. In fact, I'd probably argue the opposite.

*ETA - I suppose I was also trying to convey that this was already explicitly addressed a few different times. Here is one example from the best practices thread linked above:
AxelHeyst wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:55 pm
[*]Don’t let the main forum die! A danger here is that everyone goes into Mastermind groups and stops participating in the main forum. This would be like cutting off the branch that you’re standing on. Make clear that there’s an expectation to not totally drop off the radar on the forum. It’s natural for some types of participation in the forum to reduce, but make an effort (as the leader of a group and as members of a group) not to neglect the forum. Report back on group progress, update your journal, participate in threads, etc.

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Ego
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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by Ego »

Western Red Cedar wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:53 pm
I want to push back on this as it seems like a bit of a false narrative running through this thread.
Western Red Cedar wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:24 pm
I suppose I was also trying to convey that this was already explicitly addressed a few different times.
Fair enough. If people are addressing it.... then they see it as a problem, not a false narrative, right? Am I misunderstanding?

Avoiding darknetting ERE is the purpose of this thread, right?

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Sclass
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Re: Let's talk about how to avoid darknetting ERE

Post by Sclass »

Good points. I haven’t really seen the MMG poaching effect either. Activity has just dropped off over the years. The journals have grown and the interesting discussions have dropped off a bit.

But then I haven’t paid much attention to all this till I read this thread.

I’ve personally avoided the MMGs. Mostly for anonymity reasons. It may be a good idea to add new degrees of freedom to our connections using things like Discord. Just getting with the times. People asked for a chat years ago. Is this the same kind of thing happening again?

Maybe the forum format is becoming old for a new generation of potential early retirees.

It also seems less welcoming now…maybe less attractive to those just wandering in. I see a sprinkling of active discussions loosely related to starting on the path to early retirement and a ton of journals from people who look about as lost as the people wandering in. FFJ hit it right on the head with the beekeeper meeting story. We must look like that here.

It wasn’t quite like this in the old days. I don’t really have a solution so I cannot really complain. It’s just an observation. A younger version of me wouldn’t stick around in the current forum environment if I wandered in like I did in 2012.

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