V02 Max Challenge

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Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

So you ran over the same 1/4 mile hill 30 times, in one day? In the middle of the desert. That takes mental fortitude.

I'm starting to string consecutive training sessions together again. I am currently puzzling out how to dress in the cold - my run was 25 degrees the other day. Depending how involved I get into this food pantry thing, I also need to integrate that effort into my plans. The work is essentially moving things around a warehouse. While it feels easy in the moment, load accumulates.

I intend to establish a new baseline v02 measurement next month. I think I'll get a good year of building before my jaw surgery. I expect to lose a lot when that happens, so holding a solid reserve would be smart. I'm interested to see how much was lost since my Summer peak.

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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by jacob »

Scott 2 wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:10 am
I am currently puzzling out how to dress in the cold - my run was 25 degrees the other day.
This is tricky. I have a rule of thumb to calculate the apparent temperature. So starting with the outside temperature with the goal of getting it up to 65-75F.

sun = +10F
wind = -10F
thin layer = +10F
thick layer = +20F
sitting = -10F
standing = 0F
walking = +10F
running = +30F
carrying 30lbs of weight = +10F

So rucking in the sun without wind at 30F is 30+10+10 which requires two-three thin layers.

I think in practice, you need to play around with it. I have some cycling sleeves I can roll down to my wrists (or take off without removing my shirt) once I heat up. They're very useful.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

Thanks, I've seen assigning +/- degree values to various conditions a few times. I think that's the approach I'm headed towards. Good to see someone else's numbers.

I'm okay at tolerating cold, so the second order effects have been my primary problem. Even if I can ignore it, the skin on my hands will chap. The skin on my face will dry out. Maybe shorts in sub 40 degree weather isn't great for my knees. Etc. Conversely, a heavy shoe can lead to sweaty feet, making blisters more likely. I don't want to shop for special gear, so trial and error is required.

With mid-afternoon being substantially warmer, I'm really enjoying the schedule flexibility offered by not working. Someone stuck in an office from 9-5, misses the warm parts of the day.

M
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by M »

Down to around 25-30 degrees I run in pants and a warm lined hoodie that is a size too big for me on purpose. I keep my hands in the sleeves and tie the hoodie tight. The sleeves are also lined. I still wind up cold on my stomach area but sweating at the same time, so not sure this is really an ideal solution. I am still playing with what clothes to wear in cold outdoor running. This is much easier to do when hiking in the cold since I can just strip layers and put them in my pack as I warm up / get cold.

For now my solution to under 25 degrees is shorts and t shirt at the local YMCA indoor running track. It can get down to around -15 F where I live in January some years. At a certain point I just throw in the towel on outdoor running,which for me is around 25 degrees.

I despise the cold.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

19:30 for 5000 m row.
After this row I watched a form video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ82RYIFLN8
I was stopping at 12 with my body position instead of leaning back to 11 and pulling higher. That little adjustment can add a few percent at least per stroke so I will retest the 2000 m again soon.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

mountainFrugal wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:35 pm
After this row I watched a form video
I'll be interested to know if tweaking your form helps. I got benefits from lowering the damper to 3-4 and using a stroke rate in the low to mid 30's. Nothing else I tried seemed to make a substantial difference.


I finally did a hard row this afternoon. I got 6515m in 30 minutes, which is 94% of my best 30 minute row:

Image

For the past few months, my efforts have been rather casual. Typically 30 minutes of something, around 125bpm. Often on an elliptical. I'm trying to run 3 miles twice a week, so I keep my lower legs adapted. The energy I spent biking to the gym, didn't do much for my cardio.

The braces make eating unpleasant, so my entire system is turned down. The fitbit caught my sleeping heart rate below 40 a couple times:

Image

Right now my motivation is very limited. I'm hoping as I learn to eat better, my enthusiasm returns, and performance bounces back. I have about a year before jaw surgery. I'd like to build up a sizable physical reserve during that time. Between healing and food restrictions, I think the surgery will be especially disruptive.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

Got my new v02 max baseline - 41. This ties my prior PR, but I am far from peaked.

I signed up for a 6.5 mile trail run in mid-March. I think there's a decent runway available. Breaking 45 on the v02 max test might be possible.

My current problem is running on the snow and ice. I've got boots, but I am looking into spikes. I don't think time on the treadmill will translate well to a trail run.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

I am excited your previously bad experiences with trail running are not dissuading you from trying it in a race format.

Running on ice is really tricky. I tend to do a lot of shuffling and always try looking for the "textured" ice. This will provide more traction than smooth ice.

Treadmill will be better than no running though...

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

I hear you on the ice. I'd much rather figure out the trail than be on the road. I'm not sure how many dangerous days we'll actually have.

Today there was some packed snow on the gravel, but I had no slipping. I ran 3 miles in my hiking boots. I saw people running in shoes. I also saw tracks from people wearing yaktrax. I'm hopeful the exospikes I ordered let me use barefoot shoes most of the winter. Running in the hiking boots is a little uncomfortable.

I'm also planning to be flexible about running vs. walking. We're expecting deeper snow this weekend. I intend to strap a heart rate monitor on and wander around with snow boots. If I can get into zone, I don't care what I am doing. Depending where that goes, I might play around with using my weight vest, at least until the trails are packed down. Driving to the gym will probably be out, but I cannot use the rower every day.

This is the reason to have signed up for a race. If I want to complete it, I have no choice but to figure stuff out.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

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I did a training run on the trail for my 6.5 mile race. I could only access around 4 miles, but most of the tricky bits. I think this is going to be highly doable, in my minimalist shoes. I could probably do it today. I'm no longer concerned about the trail run aspect, but it is going to make my time unpredictable.

My wife's brother said his best 10k time is 58 minutes. After this event, I might need to attempt that. I'll be close.

Pictures:

Double track
Image

Single track
Image

Rocks
Image

Mud
Image

Muddy downhills:
Image

Some stumps are painted orange, not all of them though:
Image

The steepest descent. I did not run down this:
Image

Looking back up at it:
Image

Typical view:
Image

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sun Jan 01, 2023 3:10 pm
I could probably do it today.
Any plans to make the tricky bits even easier as part of your training? Hill laps when it is less muddy, but taking it really slow? Or walk, walk, jog, jog, run the same technical section?

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

My focus is entirely on accumulating zone 2 volume. I did 4 hours last week. My final load before tapering for race week will be 5 hours. With the weather, this includes a lot of rower and elliptical time. So it is constrained by tolerance for boredom.

Barring the one technical downhill, my normal 2x / week running path has more elevation change. When there's snow or ice, the terrain is harder than any mud I'll encounter. I have to drive to access the trail run, so I probably won't revisit those paths until race day.

Longer term, the local mountain biking area offers better quality trails for the drive. I might run that area more, come spring.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

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On Friday, I ran 5 miles in 2" of snow, wearing hiking boots. Temps were in the mid 30's, so shorts as well. It was a good time. My pace was a little over 11 minutes per mile. This was not a maximal effort. While a direct comparison isn't feasible, I could probably beat my 5k race time from last Summer.

I've had some trouble with blisters. The internet says I'm over striding, so I've been trying to run differently. Using a 180bpm cadence, shorter steps, leaning forward a little, etc. A couple sessions in, I think it is both helping and making me faster. Fully solving the blister problem would make endurance training much more sustainable.

I cannot muster enthusiasm for long bouts on the concept 2 rower. I did one 40 minute session. Ever since, I've driven to the gym, so i can use an elliptical. I'll lift at home, then hop in the car, so I can sit on an exercise machine for 40-50 minutes. Accumulating zone 2 volume this way is boring and unsustainable. But it'll work for my immediate term goals.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

Hit a new V02 max PR - 45.86. This comes off completing the trail run 2 weeks ago. 4 months of training gave me a 10% boost. This was only my second session on the rower in recent times.

The constraint felt different. I couldn't get my heart rate over 162, but my muscles blew up and wouldn't go any harder. I originally hoped to build a bigger peak, harvesting the high volume of low intensity work I did. I think there's a couple more points up for grabs, with a few weeks of focused training. But alas, it's not to be.

I've developed an inguinal hernia, diagnosed the Tuesday before my trail run. Surgery is tomorrow. The doctor says were there a specific cause, I would have been in 10/10 pain. So he thinks it has been building for years. It finally got big enough to be noticed. I am eager to get patched up and rebuild.

I don't know if I'll get back to or exceed this v02 max PR. Training for the trail run peaked at a little over 5 hours of low intensity cardio per week. 2/3 of that was on the elliptical, including some 50 minute sessions. A lot of that time was unpleasant, only a means to the end. I also managed to tank my Testosterone levels - with one measure well below normal and the other just barely over the threshold for normal.

For some time, I've had a v02 max of 45 in the back of my mind as a "good enough". Given the forced shift in my priorities, it's hard to say if that becomes a floor or a ceiling. I did redeem some wellness program points for a Garmin Forerunner 55 yesterday, so I am looking forward.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

I am glad the race went well. Bummer to hear about the hernia, but part of a lifelong career in endurance (and other) sports is coming back from injury (mentally and physically).
Scott 2 wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:20 am
For some time, I've had a v02 max of 45 in the back of my mind as a "good enough". Given the forced shift in my priorities, it's hard to say if that becomes a floor or a ceiling.
You know that as your unofficial online endurance "coach" I am going to advocate FLOOR once you are healed up from surgery. ;)

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

Assuming recovery from surgery goes well, a new PR is conceivable. IMO, I was on track to break 50 this Summer. Now I'm reduced to limping around my living room.

The wildcard is I don't have a root cause for the injury. So guarding will happen, slowing my rebuild. Heavy lifting is the last movement pattern I get back. That could favor my endurance, especially the weight dependent v02 max score.

The surgeon was very clear - I should expect a full return to all activity. But I'm going to feel nervous about squats and deadlifts for a long time.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

Image

PR on my local run. I did a second place effort yesterday that felt relatively easy. So I ramped it up today, especially on the climb, PR -6 seconds to 11:52. Harvesting the fruits of lots of Z1 nordic skiing.

How is the recovery going @Scott2?

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

Always great to see a PR. I'm jealous of the winter training harvest!


About 2 weeks out from surgery now. Another week before I'm cleared to lift anything over 10lbs. I've been playing with the Forerunner 55 I picked, walking my local trail. We had great weather today, so I covered about 4 miles, at 2.8mph. That's the most I've done so far.

Interestingly -the Garmin claimed a v02 max of 47 from my walk. I'm not sure I buy it, but it was fun to see the number. My record on the rowing machine is a 46, so apparently surgery only made me stronger.

I'm curious to see how the wrist based heart rate tracking does at higher intensities. My fitbit was entirely inaccurate during exercise, but I wonder if Garmin has figured it out. This is also the first time I've had easy access to GPS, elevation and cadence data. I'm eager to play with it all.

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Lemur
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Lemur »

Haven't dug through this thread yet, but want to note I've come across a common theme lately in my readings of fitness and nutrition that Vo2 max is strongly associated with longevity. So worth improving on outside of looking at diet/nutrition through a bodyweight lens only which I've had a tendency to do in the past. I've been looking at things a bit more holistically lately.

Lemur: Is Vo2 max associated with longevity?

ChatGPT:

Yes, there is evidence to suggest that VO2 max, which is the maximum amount of oxygen that an individual can utilize during exercise, is associated with longevity.

Studies have shown that individuals with higher VO2 max levels tend to have a lower risk of cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and other chronic diseases, which are leading causes of mortality. Additionally, a study published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine found that higher levels of VO2 max were associated with lower all-cause mortality rates in men and women.

However, it is important to note that VO2 max is just one factor among many that can impact longevity. Other lifestyle factors such as diet, exercise habits, stress management, and social support also play important roles in overall health and longevity.
And it makes sense that even if you don't have a healthy bodyweight just yet, exercise can help uptake glucose into muscles. This improves insulin sensitivity and decreases insulin resistance. So you might still have a big engine if you haven't lost weight yet (if that is something you're working on) but at least you will run smoother.

So anyway, regarding longevity and health, I'm trying to come up with easy to remember heuristics that should be applied to your daily life. Here is my four horseman (okay five) not necessarily in order:

1.) Adequate sleep (7-9 hours daily)
2.) Maintain a health bodyweight composition (healthy weight BMI and perform strength training to tilt the balance for more muscle and less fat)
3.) Improve your cardiovascular system (perform cardio training to increase Vo2 max. Interestingly enough, Nassim Taleb posted something on Twitter last year about doing 90 minutes of cardio 3x week. I wish I saved that link but I don't use Twitter anymore).
4.) Adequate Nutrition (One of the murkiest sciences with all the conflicting studies and diet wars and trends but common sense rules apply: whole foods, lean protein, fruits, veggies, beans, legumes, nuts, seeds and limit processed foods, seed oils, sugar, salt, saturated fats. Generally eat more like how our ancestors would've before industrialization. They didn't suffer from modern Western diseases for those reasons).
5.) Defense / Emotional Health (Wear sunscreen, avoid crazy humans when possible but if you can't avoid and if you can't fight, you need to learn de-escalation or run, don't stress the small things., drive defensively, etc.).

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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by theanimal »

Lemur wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2023 2:13 pm
So anyway, regarding longevity and health, I'm trying to come up with easy to remember heuristics that should be applied to your daily life. Here is my four horseman (okay five) not necessarily in order
Have you checked out Peter Attia's work? I think you'd find it of interest. His main focus is on this theme and it is also the subject of his recently published book Outlive (haven't read it yet, I have a copy on hold at the library). He's been making the podcast rounds lately talking about the book. For him there are 5 main components of longevity interventions: Nutritional biochemistry, exercise physiology (of which VO2 max is a big focus), sleep physiology, mental and emotional health and medications and supplements.

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