V02 Max Challenge

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Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

That's a solid effort, especially after a year of no exercise. Your lifestyle is paying dividends.


Swapping in some yoga has helped me. The half mile splits for this morning's 3 miles were ~10% faster (31:34 vs. 34:43) than last week:

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I'll target a 5:15 half mile next week. Gradually speeding up is working far better than intervals did.

I've also been getting zone 2 work on the bike, without blowing up my back. Twice in the last week:

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I think I've found my tolerable training volume.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

Scott 2 wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:27 am
That's a solid effort, especially after a year of no exercise. Your lifestyle is paying dividends.

Gradually speeding up is working far better than intervals did.

I think I've found my tolerable training volume.
Great news Jacob! Off the couch! 85F with high RH% sounds hard. Not as hard as running on a treadmill though. haha.

Speeding up is a great strategy because your muscles will already be warm by the end at the highest loads. I am glad you have found your training volume zone with running and cycling. :)

theanimal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by theanimal »

Peter Attia went on Rich Roll’s podcast and they had a segment describing zone 2 training and how important it is. I’d recommend listening. The segment starts at about 1:50 in. They said that Zone 2 max is the most important marker for metabolic health. A high zone 2 max leads to increased mitochondrial efficiency and mitochondrial density or in simpler words an inexhaustible source of energy to power you through long endurance events. When Rich started training for ultra marathons he trained exclusively zone 2 for 1 year, never doing any threshold (aka VO2 max) or tempo work. He says he went from someone who could never run faster than 10 min/mi without going into zone 3, to 2 years later being able to run 7:15 min/mi in zone 2. They called near zone 3-4 crossover garbage time or “no man’s land” in terms of training. You are not low enough for zone 2 to develop mitochondrial system but not high enough for strength and power benefits. Peter says if you're training for health 90% of endurance training should be in zone 2 and 5-10% is zone 5 (unless training for specific sport). He does only one VO2 max workout a week.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

That's a good interview. I especially enjoyed discussion around continuous glucose monitoring (CGM). Interesting it gets them away from one meal a day. I'd very much like to try the tool. I priced it out previously, but found I need to upgrade my phone. Sometime in the next couple years.


@mountainFrugal introduced me to aerobic threshold testing, to find the Zone 2 target heart rate. I ran a heart rate drift test a few months ago, ending up with a target around 120-125bpm:

https://uphillathlete.com/aerobic-train ... ssessment/

The bike ride averages out in there. Short of camping myself on an exercise machine, I find hold a steady heart rate very challenging. But that comes with adherence problems. Sitting on my rowing machine for 30 minutes at 120bpm is boring, even with Netflix. I don't get too many of those in a month.

It has been a few months since I ran the heart rate drift test. It'd be interesting to recheck, after I do the 5k.

From what I understand, the uphill athlete guys would have me build up to 7h a week of zone 2, before worrying about anything else. Not fun. I'd quit.


I did find some older content from Peter Attia, where he's still focused on v02 max. There he defines optimal as the top 2.5% for your age group. Though he also says for his clients, they target the top 2.5% of the age group 10 years younger. It's a youtube video though, so he doesn't provide reference charts. On the concept 2 chart I've been using, excellent for my age group is 45+, the group younger is 50+. So I've got a ways to go.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

theanimal wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:19 pm
to 2 years later being able to run 7:15 min/mi in zone 2.
This is what is referred to as being able to run "long easy distance" as opposed to "long slow distance". When you build up a base, your Z1/2 pace is faster than most people (including your former untrained self) can run in Z3. I will check out this author. Just to make sure there is not confusion... I should also reiterate that Uphill Athlete defines the zones as slightly shifted where Z1 starts with actual cardio and Zone 2 is the no-mans-land of training in this system. This podcast info aligns with everything in Uphill Athlete, just the defined zones are shifted. As long as you are following the approximate physiologically defined tests, you can define the zones for your own training and use either system. I personally mostly avoid zone 2, or 155-162 bpm for my system. 155 is continuous nose breathing threshold.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

Last hard session before the 5k. 3 miles in 29:24 vs. last week's 31:34. Rest week starts now.

Accepting my ankles as the constraint, prioritizing them above all else, is working:

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That's a little over 2 minutes faster than last week. Tomorrow remains to be seen, but my ankles feel ok. Outside of making them stronger, I'm getting better absorbing impact through my knees and hips, without slamming my heels into the ground. 4:40 half mile splits hurt me a month ago. There's no way I got that improvement in strength alone.

With that said, I know weekly 10% increases in pace are dangerous. Following my 5k, I am going back to the slower, heart rate informed work. This has been a solid peak and some other life priorities are coming up.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

Good effort! Pushing it training is that razors edge between overtraining/injury and that last little bit of gain. Very curious to see how this training cycle turns out for you.

Pre-Race tips: Make sure you get really good sleep two nights before the race. The night before the race you might not sleep well, so you want to make sure you are not in any sleep debt. Have everything layed out the night before, race number already pinned (if you pick up the day before). I typically only race in clothes/gear I have used during training. A race is not a good time to be testing new clothing. If you had to, you should be able to roll out of bed, put on race clothes and then run. It should be that simple so as to not cause unnecessary stress the morning of the race. Not sure of your pooping schedule, but make sure you poop before your race, even if that means waking up earlier. Depending on how popular the race is and if you have to cycle or drive to the start, there may be limited parking. Go early to avoid this additional stress. Follow your pacing... it will be easy to go out too hard with the excitement of all the other runners. Run your race!

Good luck on your taper week and we are all stoked to see how you do!

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

Thanks for the tips. The line-up time I submitted was 34 minutes. My data shows 10 minute miles are feasible. Depending on the weather and race conditions, maybe I'll see 31 minutes? They mark every mile, so I'll target the 10 minute pace.

My purpose for the 5k was the training cycle. To that extent, it's already a success. It was only 16 weeks ago that I posted:
Scott 2 wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:57 pm
I tried getting zone 2 on foot, but my feet and ankles only support short bursts. This walk/jog got me 20 minutes of zone 2, but took my feet and ankles 3 days to recover
I am very happy with the progress.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

I did the 5k today. I just barely broke 30 minutes, which was my stretch goal. I am very happy with the result.

I knew sub-30 was possible, but I didn't attach to it. Too many variables were outside of my control. The same pace for 1/2 mile intervals left me hobbled, just a couple months ago. Strengthening my lower legs helped. The 5k was also less hilly than training, which is easier on my ankles.


Some lessons learned:

1. I got there too early. I could have easily slept another 30 minutes.

2. I got confused as to where the exact finish was and slowed about 10 seconds too early. I could have run through.

3. When people line up by expected time, they make aspirational choices. Even though the event was chip timed. I was about 20 seconds per mile faster than my line-up time. I passed around 20% of the participants. I could have lined up a tier faster than my best case scenario.

4. Due to the above, you can't pick a random person to pace against. They are likely to slow down and throw you off. I caught this, passing the person I was chasing, about 3 minutes before the run was over. They finished just over 30 minutes.

5. Trail can mean crushed limestone. It can also mean stretches of pea sized gravel, which doesn't feel great in barefoot shoes. Luckily for me, that only lasted a few blocks.


Some observations:

1. I couldn't help but acknowledge the absurdity of it. There's an MC, he's attached to multiple loudspeakers, and he talked for 2 hours straight. We are running in a circle, on a public trail.

2. People line up along the end of the course to cheer. Multiple people told me to smile. I have no idea who, because all my energy was focused on doing the thing. I don't want to be the center of attention, or make others the same. That felt weird. People are really into it.

3. It was surprisingly loud. Like this hurts my ears, I'm going to wait a couple blocks away, loud. Who wants that at 7am on a Sunday morning?

4. About 1/3 of the people who signed up, didn't show up.

5. The event was well staffed with volunteers. There were dozens of people, working for free, early on a Sunday morning. That's a kind thing for them to do, especially at such an inconvenient time. Makes me wonder about giving back.

So a local race is basically a running party. I didn't fully appreciate that aspect.

jacob
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by jacob »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 12:27 pm
So a local race is basically a running party. I didn't fully appreciate that aspect.
https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths ?

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 12:27 pm
I did the 5k today. I just barely broke 30 minutes, which was my stretch goal. I am very happy with the result.
Yeah! I am stoked for you! I suppose my suggestion to get there early was unnecessary in this case. I like all your other observations too. Each race has a vibe. There are more low-key ones. Most post-races have a party atmosphere. For longer races, each aid station has its own vibe. Larks like to party at 7 am. Lol.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

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My partner and I are doing a large elevation gain run/hike the first week of October so these updates will be more frequent over the next month as I "train for the gain". Coincidentally, our local running crew has been doing a regular Wednesday Hill Climb Challenge that alternates between the shorter steeper climb (~37 minutes up-thread) and how far up you can get in an hour (this climb, 7.3 km, 876 m of gain, I stopped at the spring). The current climb is also a part of the longer test run (~3 hrs) I posted up thread. I had not done this specific section starting from the higher elevation trail head since last summer. I knocked over 3:30 off my time from last year (now below 1 hour!). I did not have to power hike any sections and was able to shuffle run through the technical sections. This posted time even had a warm-up during the first 7 minutes of the climb in HR zone 1/2/low3 before kicking it into 3/4... so more room for improvement if I warm up at the trail head before starting the timer.

Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

@jacob - fair observation. I forget the Mops give events staying power. All I wanted was an objective judge. My search criteria focused on trail surface, date and driving distance. I guess I should of asked, "how's the after party?".

@mountainFrugal - good luck with the training. It's great to see your continued improvement.

jacob
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by jacob »

Some observations . I'm pushing two modalities. The route is the same. Flat sidewalk loops of 0.9--1 miles each.

Warm start:
30mins of Insanity Max30
3 running loops.
Here I start out with the legs already wasted, so the limiting factor is strength endurance, especially in the hip flexors. Cadence is all over the place. A typical example may be 8:30, 8:10, 8:50. The first loop has no springiness in the legs. They become more supple on the second round. The third round is mind vs body. Total time is 55 mins or so. Legs are sore in the evening, but the soreness is gone in the morning. Also, pre-wasting means running slower so I don't experience the usual tendon aches of [re]starting a running routine.

Cold start:
4 running loops. Cadence is more consistent. 7:50+/-0:10 without pushing for air. More bouncy. Calves are shot. Ankles sometimes complain in the aftermath. However, no muscular soreness. Total time is 32 mins. Endorphins exceed pain. I consider this one easy but not as effective. I'd like to try one for the record books, but I don't think I'm ready to do this without paying the price in tendonitis yet.

I find the variance in cadence in the warm start mode interesting. Cold start I'm basically just plodding along. Warm start requires pushing through ... and the pushing is likely not consistent.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

I finally got on a concept2 rower. I did a 30 minute row last week that focused on form. This effort included 2 segments (3 minutes each) of going hard. I wanted to see what going hard and keeping good form felt like. Yesterday, I did a 5 minute warm-up and then tried the 2000m effort. 7:28 for this effort. VO2 max is 54-55.5 depending on selecting highly trained for rowing or not from the concept2 website on the first page. I had some gas left in the tank at the end and kept the final 2 500m segments constant. I will try another effort soon, but this is the V02 max range of what my watch currently estimates running non-flat terrain at elevation. Flat terrain efforts are usually always higher estimates (e.g. see track and 5 mile effort above).

Tag to Jacob and Scott2!

(I realize Scott2 is recovering from surgery and sickness and therefore should do an appropriately down scaled exercise effort, even if walking)

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Scott 2
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by Scott 2 »

That's a great row! You can see rankings for your age and weight class here:

https://log.concept2.com/rankings/2023/ ... r=M&page=1

The best numbers are posted by tall guys, who probably fill out the 165 weight class. Improvements are not linear. The gap from 7:30 to 7:00 is much harder than from 8:00 to 7:30.


If you want to play, you can get a verification code from the rower memory, via steps listed here:

https://www.concept2.com/service/monito ... ation-code


I haven't been on the rower since September. It'll be interesting to see how my v02 max held up. With bike season closing, I've just started intentionally scheduling cardio again.

jacob
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by jacob »

mountainFrugal wrote:
Sun Nov 13, 2022 11:38 am
I finally got on a concept2 rower.
Masochists unite. However, I'd need a supremely good deal before I get a concept2. They hold their price too well.

When will be see you in the forum burpee challenge?

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

Thank you for the links @scott2.

I will try a burpee effort soon. Also seems fun. Are you still running after your insanity workouts @jacob?

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

I did another rowing workout today. 5 minutes warm-up, 20 minutes threshold, 5 minutes cool down. 5000m in 20 mins for the fast section. A few more of these workouts and I will be ready for the 2000m test again.

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mountainFrugal
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Re: V02 Max Challenge

Post by mountainFrugal »

I had ~3000m to go for my goal of 91550m (~300000 feet) of gain/loss for the year. Banged it out over the last couple days on the small steep technical hill next to where we are staying in the desert. Last night as the sun was setting I managed 15 out and backs (up, over, down, back up other side, down to start). Zone 3 on the way up, Zone 1 by the time I was down. Repeat. Move through Zone 2 but spend as little time there as possible.

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