ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
7Wannabe5
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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Blackjack wrote: don’t make a dominator hierarchy, greenies don’t like these
Who does like a dominator hierarchy?....Oh, yeah, duh...never mind.

Otherwise, thumbs up on your post!

Actually, speaking of "dominator hierarchies", I happened upon this by way of note in Smil's new book on "Growth" causing me to take a peek at some Rational Optimist site he was dissing, and I found this linked there, but it seems very Yellow and relevant to topic at hand.

https://samoburja.com/gft/
What drives social change throughout history and the present? What are the origins of institutional health or sclerosis? My answer is that a small number of functional institutions founded by exceptional individuals form the core of society. These institutions are imperfectly imitated by the rest of society, multiplying their effect. The original versions outperform their imitators, and are responsible for the creation and renewal of society and all the good things that come with it—whether we think of technology, wealth, or the preservation of a society’s values. Over time, functional institutions decay. As the landscape of founders and institutions changes, so does the landscape of society.

This answer forms the basis of the lens through which I analyze current and historical events, affairs, and figures. But though it may be intuitively compelling, fully substantiating such a framework is no small task. This manuscript, titled Great Founder Theory, is my substantiation. It explains all of the models that are key to understanding how great founders shape society through the generations, covering such topics as strategy, power, knowledge, social technology, and more.

Miss Lonelyhearts
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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by Miss Lonelyhearts »

Could someone identify a lot of yellow books and authors?

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »


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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

Blackjack wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:43 pm
So if we are playing pure SD here, I think the pure green is a level that has transcended and included the orange level. So we can talk to greens in orange talk and they will grok what we are saying, as they have been there before, though we have to perfectly carrot it in a way that is more community oriented and in a way that is helping others actualize as well. I think we should entice on the transitional feelings of orange to green, as this is is what I think is most enticing to them about ERE.
(my bold)

This would be the business executive/professional with a midlife crisis realizing that there's more to life than reaching the corporate corner office having stepped on many a people while climbing the career ladder.

I think Gerthood from Wheaton/Klassen-Koop in https://www.amazon.com/Building-Better- ... 07XWRXZW9/ speaks to this group. Also see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEohCmuHoTQ where I try to curb my lack of enthusiasm for this financial model. You see the same issue in Green-Purple with its pursuit of New Age workshops in spiritual healing and enlightened minimalism, where "organizers" make a small living as life-coaches, etc. basically paying for each other's materials while primarily relying on "outside money" and "new blood" to keep the subsector going. This pretty much puts it at the hobby level for most except a few "rockstars" who can make a living selling ebooks, etc.

However, there is also green with a red tint that has a rather disinformed view of orange(*). In that case orange talk will backfire. They have never been there and see orange as evil incarnate. It's the difference between "I used to be ... but now see the error of my ways" and "I'll never go there... because it's bad/exploitative/oppressive on every level". Even appropriate use of orange is a no go. People may deliberately try to live without money or jump through all kinds of hoops to dissociate from it, insisting on bartering, favors, or alternative methods. Ditto goes for individual efforts... to the point that "nothing can be done without community". This type is more militant.

(*) The difference between the two is kennen vs wissen. The orange-to-green knows or kenns orange from personal experience. The other type knows-about or wisses green sometimes believing itself turquoise.

Having a red tone means that there's a lot of energy. The question is how to channel it w/o pissing people off or leaving it self-directed towards self-destruction.

7Wannabe5
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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Grain of salt, because I might not know what the heck I am talking about, but two novels I think might be Yellow would be the classic “Howard’s End” by Forster and the very new and recommended “No One Is Talking About This.”

In both books the female protagonists are Green or Orange/Green and in some level of conflict with men and/or aspects of society that are Orange/Blue. In both novels tragic events which simultaneously bring out lower and higher functioning in various characters result in eventual transition towards Yellow for protagonist.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by Blackjack »

jacob wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:52 am
However, there is also green with a red tint that has a rather disinformed view of orange(*). In that case orange talk will backfire. They have never been there and see orange as evil incarnate. It's the difference between "I used to be ... but now see the error of my ways" and "I'll never go there... because it's bad/exploitative/oppressive on every level". Even appropriate use of orange is a no go. People may deliberately try to live without money or jump through all kinds of hoops to dissociate from it, insisting on bartering, favors, or alternative methods. Ditto goes for individual efforts... to the point that "nothing can be done without community". This type is more militant.

Having a red tone means that there's a lot of energy. The question is how to channel it w/o pissing people off or leaving it self-directed towards self-destruction.
I don't think I understand the archetype of green with a hint of red. I feel like the socio-equality orientation of green and the ego-centric orientation of red are too at odds for me to understand the amalgamation of the green red? Can you help me clear that up?

I'm trying to make an infographic to make all the flavors of green we need to account for a bit clearer... and I've done the stuff I think I understand, but might be useful to get some reviews and additional eyes on it (and help me with the bits that I don't understand).

— SD Green Descriptors —
———————————————
Green - hint Purple: ??? Seems like Green / purple is too at odds for there to be much of a crossover here.
———————————————
Green - hint Red: Wants relational / equal / social group …. Except me? Maybe the idea of “first among equals”, or something like this? I’m not clear on this one.
———————————————
Green - hint Blue:
Wants relative and communal structures built in hierarchical / authoritarian structures. Believes something like “I could change / fix X problem if everyone would just let me actually fix it and gave me the resources”
———————————————
Green - hint Orange:
Like true green, but probably still with deep tendrils of orange. Believes in the bottom left quadrant, but still pretty heavily driven by right quadrant. Believes something like “I want to work to develop a community, and i’m gonna make the absolute best community because I’m gonna work so hard at it”. Might still spawn Dominator hierarchies due to orange tendencies instead of Self actualization hierarchies.
———————————————
Green (true): https://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/green/
———————————————
Green - hint Yellow: These must be the people on the edge of the yellow transformation. Moving towards systems theory, vision logic, how to see the others in the spiral where they are at and actually meet them where they are at. I think you need to be here to be an effective leader in win-win strategies, that can both move forwards a group (if the group has a collective will / work to do), as well as the individuals themselves (towards self actualization, i.e. up the spiral), if they can just get the sales pitch right.
———————————————
Green - hint Turquoise: ??? (is it important to fill this out?)
———————————————

Then the second thing i want to hit on is a map of what entails a "community" here. You are implying some greens are unable to start moving towards a goal / etc / without joining a community, so I think we should define some ideas of what entails a community. Like this board is some semblance of a community (though it might be considered on the weak side compared to cohabitating eco communities). I want to start it on just 1 axis for now (weak to strong), then maybe we can look at if there is an effective / easy / lower maintenance way to implement a stronger community (maybe this board is good enough? Maybe ERE needs something stronger?) and add more axes as necessary.

Community Chart

Weakest
\————————/
|
Neighbors you see a few times a year and small talk with
|
Coworkers at very corporate job
|
Twitch ( gives viewers feeling of community where none exists? Very weird)
|
Large web forum ( platform capitalism site: Reddit, Twitter)
|
Small Web Forum with zealous moderator
|
Small Web forum with chill moderator
|
Small Facebook group with group chat and postings
|
Discord group with group chat, minimal moderator
|
Coworkers in a co-op / startup
|
Weekly or biweekly support group (in person or on zoom)
|
Community via in person meetings (maybe zoom ok?) 3+ times per week with different flavors but each flavor run by a “teacher” / master
|
In person meetings / activities 5+ times per week with many “gurus” but those people are more just for guidance
|
Subgroup of the above who now cohabitate and spend much of the free time together / talk every day about community subjects, etc
|
Cohabiting Eco communities with similar goals and a large plot of land but private residences
|
Cohabitating communities with similar goals, private sleeping/ etc / but shared meals , food, chores , etc
|
Cohabitating communities with similar goals and non private residences (commune, monastery, barracks)
|
Cohabitating Community that will drink Koolaid from the leader
|
\————————/
Strongest

7Wannabe5
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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I think maybe Green with hint of Red might be somebody who says “I am tolerant of everything EXCEPT intolerance!”, but bangs harder on the “EXCEPT intolerance!” At Yellow, one becomes more accepting of intolerance in the sense of recognizing that it’s a phase attribute which serves a purpose at that phase.

xmj
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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by xmj »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:56 am
I think maybe Green with hint of Red might be somebody who says “I am tolerant of everything EXCEPT intolerance!”, but bangs harder on the “EXCEPT intolerance!” At Yellow, one becomes more accepting of intolerance in the sense of recognizing that it’s a phase attribute which serves a purpose at that phase.
Not entirely unlike the SSC Post I can tolerate anything except the outgroup.

7Wannabe5
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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@xmj:

Right. In the last section, he calls himself out for likely writing somewhat from the Gray (libertarian end of liberal Blue) perspective, but maybe he is really writing from Yellow?

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

Blackjack wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:57 am
———————————————
Green - hint Purple: ??? Seems like Green / purple is too at odds for there to be much of a crossover here.
———————————————
Green - hint Red: Wants relational / equal / social group …. Except me? Maybe the idea of “first among equals”, or something like this? I’m not clear on this one.
———————————————
Green - hint Turquoise: ??? (is it important to fill this out?)
———————————————
This is how I see it: Obviously work in progress.

Green with Purple tropes: New Age Hippie. Believes in crystal powers, natural healing (probably antivaxxer), and synchronicity. Attends yoga or meditation classes and talks about their chakras. Hangs around in nature (not doing much) and wears funny clothes. Distinguishes from true Purple by selectively borrowing from other religions rather than the local folklore (ghosts, dragonfly messengers from the afterlife, ...)

Green with Red tropes: Social Justice Warrior. Key accomplishment is identity politics or forming tribes based on identity in order to fight the power of the other tribes. Unlike true Red which is more of a "Nobody tells me what to do, I do what I want and damn the consequences.", GwR uses Green concepts to set up conflicts to get that good community feeling of being part of something greater fighting for justice.

Green with Turquoise tropes: Hive Mind. Believes they have "transcended the ego to unlock the infinite wisdom of their soul", whereas in reality they've merely sacrificed their ego to groupthink. Deeply opposed to any suggestion of hierarchy or classification: "Every human is a beautiful and unique soul" that must be seen and listened to. Namaste! Unlike true Turquoise which is able to consider the whole system including the ugly parts without getting affronted.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

Blackjack wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:57 am
Then the second thing i want to hit on is a map of what entails a "community" here. You are implying some greens are unable to start moving towards a goal / etc / without joining a community, so I think we should define some ideas of what entails a community. Like this board is some semblance of a community (though it might be considered on the weak side compared to cohabitating eco communities). I want to start it on just 1 axis for now (weak to strong), then maybe we can look at if there is an effective / easy / lower maintenance way to implement a stronger community (maybe this board is good enough? Maybe ERE needs something stronger?) and add more axes as necessary.
I think this is a good idea. Like housing, community exists on a scale. There may even be a kind of Wheaton law that requires community to be built incrementally? When I tried forming the Learning Tribes (monthly IRL meetings) a couple of years ago, there was little interest, perhaps because the forum sense of community was not strong enough.

When socially-oriented people talk about "need to form community", it's definitely in the second half of your chart. Regular meetings on zoom is the absolute minimum.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by Blackjack »

First iteration of the Green Origin Tropes - theoretically I think we need carrot vectors to map to the tropes, which then might need us to understand what the collapsed failure mode of ERE is for one of those tropes. Then i can add them (the collapsed failure mode view, as well as the carrot vector) to this little flowchart. Then it might have to get more complicated, as some of the collapsed views may overlap / etc.

Image

I think Pure Green, green purple, maybe green turquoise would see some form of Zero-waste or waste minimization, as its very important to the health of the earth; mixed with being closer to nature (and starting communal hobbies involving people and nature that disincentivize consumption and monetary usage). Things I think they wouldn't grok: optimization of spending when the money is on something like food from the farmers market, locally made X made with sustainable materials, maybe using a web of goals to minimize impact while also minimizing "sacrifice". Hmmm, I need more time and more meetings with greenies (who aren't me) to try to truly grok their mindsets. Unfortunately covid has really messed with the operating of most of the cool green communities I was a part of around here.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

Blackjack wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:08 am
First iteration of the Green Origin Tropes - theoretically I think we need carrot vectors to map to the tropes, which then might need us to understand what the collapsed failure mode of ERE is for one of those tropes. Then i can add them (the collapsed failure mode view, as well as the carrot vector) to this little flowchart. Then it might have to get more complicated, as some of the collapsed views may overlap / etc.
Nice chart! I think the collapsed failure mode is [the regression to] the trope. For example, the failure-mode of orange is standard FIRE ... then "failing again", FI ... then fatFI/getting rich ... and ultimately Dave Ramsey and Suze Orman as the regression touches down on the mainstream.

Thus the trope can indicate not only the regression but also a progression (where people are coming from) going forward. For example GwR may translate into what I've heard called "squad wealth" in which a group of friends make a pact to take care of each other financially as well. It'll probably involve bitcoin since other currencies are evil. Stuff like that.

All this may be obvious. I'm just restating it for my own clarity. But in short, the respective tropes are key to the respective entry points.
Blackjack wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:08 am
I think Pure Green, green purple, maybe green turquoise would see some form of Zero-waste or waste minimization, as its very important to the health of the earth; mixed with being closer to nature (and starting communal hobbies involving people and nature that disincentivize consumption and monetary usage). Things I think they wouldn't grok: optimization of spending when the money is on something like food from the farmers market, locally made X made with sustainable materials, maybe using a web of goals to minimize impact while also minimizing "sacrifice".
I agree.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:18 pm
Image
We might as well include a blue slice as well. I think prepping/survivalism sits more on the blue side, at least by origin (which may be US centric).

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by grundomatic »

With the last post being from March, I'm guessing there is some of this going on:
jacob wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:54 am
The solution is for the overachiever to deliberate play a different game: Rather than always presenting the correct answer, hold back and let someone else find it.
Well, I'll play. If nothing else I'm probably closer to a BLUE origin than the YELLOW destination, so maybe that's helpful.

So how to push BLUE vertically through the spiral to arrive at YELLOW and something resembling ERE1? BLUE is dedicated to The Way. The specifics obviously vary across different countries, cultures, and religions. What does not vary is dedication to The Way, usually written down in The Book. With (true) BLUE it is not open to interpretation, so in my opinion the best one can hope for is to point to The Book and encourage the modes of living or behaving or being that are most appropriate. Reading in the FIRE sphere, it seems like once people move past money there is a rediscovery of the benefits of different practices like fasting, meditation, and not being an asshole that ancient religions have long prescribed. So if we are talking healthy religious BLUE, there seems to be good "ingredients" to work with. If the BLUE is dedication to a cause where the leaders are actually RED or ORANGE and using The Way to benefit themselves, this may be harder. There will be instances of BLUE that fall in between. One hang up is that BLUE only listens to official leadership, so an outsider pointing to The Book and telling BLUE how to live The Way won't be well-received. Guilt is a control mechanism in BLUE, so maybe that can be used somehow. I'm thinking the best situation is "converting" a BLUE/orange leader that is open to The Book being interpreted beyond "as written", and that person can then pass the lesson along to their BLUE subordinates.

I'm working on some examples, but I will go ahead and post this part, lest this linger in draft land forever.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by grundomatic »

I might be slowly getting this. From the Stoa2 presentation, "Design plan with aligned what-"impacts" but different "whys" and "hows" resolving individual discomforts and inspiring people according to where they are." So the plan is ERE, the impacts are improved life quality, lower resource use, resilience, etc., and we are looking for the whys and hows of BLUE. I'll use the format from above, though as I'm starting to write, I'm realizing that I'm guessing how these vMemes might relate to components of ERE, rather than identifying a true starting point. I've been thinking about these for a while, so I'm still going to share even if it's totally made up. Force myself to post these ideas, even if it wasn't the assignment at all. So I might not be getting it after all. These examples are US Protestant BLUE. We can do US Nationalist BLUE later.

Blue w/ Red:

"Holier-than-thou"--points to their success at the world's material game to illustrate their spiritual superiority to non-believers.

True Blue:

"Fruitful Multiplier"--reduced resource use per person means resources for more people in God's Kingdom. Trading financial capital for social capital in the form of a big family, and (blue) cultural capital by following Old Testament directives literally.

"Modern Day Apostle"--literally sells all (or most) of their possessions to figuratively follow Jesus. With few material needs, has time to focus on ministry and/or service-oriented volunteer work.

Blue w/ Orange:

"Earn to Tithe"--FIRE but keeps on working to donate their money.

"Self-Supported Missionary"--FIREs to then live abroad as a missionary, or potentially pay their own salary as a minister/pastor in a domestic community that couldn't otherwise support one--very rural, inner-city, etc.

Blue w/ Green:

"Christian Freegan"--DW came home one day with a tract on this someone gave her. I'm sure people around here know what a freegan is--just insert a Blue "why" instead of a Green one.

Blue w/ Yellow:

"ERE/Spiral Missionary"--similar to "Self-supported Missionary" above, but I imagine this person teaching Orange business management and Green permaculture alongside sharing their Blue spirituality. Serving God, people, and the Spiral itself. Very practical in their ministry.

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