Lightfruit55's Journal

Where are you and where are you going?
lightfruit55
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:47 pm

Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by lightfruit55 »

@MBB - Thanks for your post, which made me double-check the prepayment terms. The relevant term states that "If the Loan Facility is partially prepaid, you shall pay us such revised monthly instalment calculated based on the outstanding Loan Facility over the remaining Loan Period..." It seems mortgage prepayment works differently in Singapore compared to the US. In any event, I will surely verify again with the bank before making any prepayment.

Given the current interest rate environment, I may not proceed with mortgage prepayment though. I'm still thinking about it. In Singapore, the government issues (monthly) a 10-year government savings bond (with step up coupon rates and with coupons payable semi-annually) which is principal guaranteed (i.e. you can redeem anytime with one month notice). The coupon rates are increasing and for the latest issuance, the average coupon rate for the first 3 years is now slightly higher than my mortgage rate, so it seems to make more sense to allocate my "prepayment" money there instead.

lightfruit55
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:47 pm

Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by lightfruit55 »

July Update:

Health
I've finally succumbed to Covid and am currently in self-isolation. Had body aches, chills and a low grade fever for most parts of yesterday, but thankfully they cleared after a good night's sleep. Currently battling the congested airways, constant hacking and scratchy throat. Annoying but thankful that the worst appears to be over - hope I don't jinx myself and that I can more-or-less recover by the end of the week.

Finances
Updated my spreadsheets and it seems that I'm still hovering around 18x annual expenses. Despite monthly income, progress has stagnated due to the challenging market and inflation.

Life
My life feels rather "empty" lately. It seems that I've been so good at minimalism that I've stripped away curiosity, desires, interests, etc. I recently did a self-reflection of my values (inspired by a random Youtube "life coach") and I struggled to come up with a minimum of 7 values. I could only think of 5 (being peace of mind, physical health, love, financial independence, authenticity). I would imagine most people have the opposite problem of having way too many values to prioritise - that "life coach" listed around 15 values. It does seem my life should have capacity for more values and for more productive contribution to the world/others. I need to stop my propensity to "subtract" and "strip down" my already dull life, but rather seek to add more colour and textures. This seems difficult when one has been well-conditioned to live a self-centred minimalist existence.

After a deeper reflection, I decided to add the following values to pursue: exploration, fun and contribution to others. Re exploration/fun, I recently went for a tea-making workshop. Re "contribution to others", I also recently made a donation of 200. Let's see how I can pursue these new values further.

chenda
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by chenda »

lightfruit55 wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:52 am
I've finally succumbed to Covid and am currently in self-isolation. Had body aches, chills and a low grade fever for most parts of yesterday, but thankfully they cleared after a good night's sleep. Currently battling the congested airways, constant hacking and scratchy throat. Annoying but thankful that the worst appears to be over - hope I don't jinx myself and that I can more-or-less recover by the end of the week.
Hope you're feeling better Lightfruit and can reset yourself afterwards.

sky
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Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:20 am

Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by sky »

I wish you a good recovery and good health. When practicing minimalism, it is common to bottom out, in other words, to reduce things below the point where reduction has a positive impact on your life. When you get to that position, start looking for even a small spark of fascination, follow it, and see where it leads.

lightfruit55
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:47 pm

Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by lightfruit55 »

Thanks @chenda and @sky for the recovery wishes. Unfortunately, it seems that I'd jinxed myself as I've since (my last post) lost my sense of smell and taste. I can literally eat a tube of toothpaste or inhale smoke and wouldn't know it. Being robbed of 2 senses have been depressing and I'm not sure if/how long I will take to recover the same.

@sky - thanks for the advice re bottoming out. I agree that I need to look for sparks. I've also been listening to the Mindset Mentor podcasts (basic motivational 101 stuff but helpful for me nonetheless). According to the Mindset Mentor, most people don't know what the hell they want, and that's ok. But what's not ok is not trying to discover what I really want. I shouldn't have to stress about having/finding the thing that I'm meant to do with my life, and that it's ok if I can keep on trying various things for now.

lightfruit55
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:47 pm

Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by lightfruit55 »

Some reflections:

0-12: Fetus to semi-conscious
13-18: Growing up years, increasingly conscious, dependent, no agency, highly competitive
19-22: College years, increasing agency and independence, highly susceptible to external influences, decreasingly competitive
23-?? (Current phase): Salary man employment, jadedness to pursuit of FIRE, decreasing competitiveness, moderate to high level of independence and agency, increasingly mindful, decreasing susceptibility to external influences, increasing sense of boredom and “same-ness”, decreasing level of challenge, decreasing social circle.

The plan is to transition into the next phase of life entailing zest (for life), variety and challenge. Some ideas: stepping out of the full-time salary man matrix, developing new skills, finding other means of paid work, expanding social circle, being responsible for more than just myself (e.g. having a pet or…)

The current phase is not working for me anymore, hence the increasing sense of boredom and same-ness. The question is how much financial security or independence I will need to take a firm step into the new phase. Financial security/independence is an important value for me and will also give me more options in my new phase, yet it’s also addictive and suffers from diminishing marginal benefits.

OutOfTheBlue
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by OutOfTheBlue »

Hi Lightfruit55,

I have been following your journal, and its recurrent themes do not leave me indifferent. Quite the contrary!

In this latest update, which sums them up quite nicely, your outlining of your life phases had me thinking of Bill Plotkin's Eco-Soulcentric Developmental Wheel and its eight stages of human development, in stark contrast with the egocentric stages many of us have known or are stuck in.

I'm not sure if these books (I am thinking of Nature and the Human Soul and Wild Mind) would appeal to you, but having recently read Plotkin's work, I think they might provide you with some rich insights on the aspects of your life that you find lacking/challenging, some tools and practices for embracing further growth, and an enticing vision of a life full of purpose and meaning beyond the daily grind.

I am sure you have seen references of Bill Plotkin in the ERE lands before. This is how I discovered him as well, and I am glad I did.

Here is an intro to the the Eco-Soulcentric Developmental Wheel (Nature and the Human Soul): https://www.animas.org/wp-content/uploa ... ebsite.pdf

If interested, I can share the digital books and/or even an audiobook version (although the audio version of Wild Mind is particularly bad, read in such a soulless way that I wouldn't recommend it).

jacob
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by jacob »

lightfruit55 wrote:
Mon Sep 05, 2022 9:47 pm
Some reflections:

0-12: Fetus to semi-conscious
13-18: Growing up years, increasingly conscious, dependent, no agency, highly competitive
19-22: College years, increasing agency and independence, highly susceptible to external influences, decreasingly competitive
23-?? (Current phase): Salary man employment, jadedness to pursuit of FIRE, decreasing competitiveness, moderate to high level of independence and agency, increasingly mindful, decreasing susceptibility to external influences, increasing sense of boredom and “same-ness”, decreasing level of challenge, decreasing social circle.

The plan is to transition into the next phase of life entailing zest (for life), variety and challenge. Some ideas: stepping out of the full-time salary man matrix, developing new skills, finding other means of paid work, expanding social circle, being responsible for more than just myself (e.g. having a pet or…)

The current phase is not working for me anymore, hence the increasing sense of boredom and same-ness. The question is how much financial security or independence I will need to take a firm step into the new phase. Financial security/independence is an important value for me and will also give me more options in my new phase, yet it’s also addictive and suffers from diminishing marginal benefits.
Hmmm...

If you believe in the "include and transcend" mode of personal development, each new phase is built on a good foundation of the previous stage. There's nothing wrong with consolidating a phase and exhausting what it has to offer. In fact doing so means that later stages aren't based on "naive ideas". This typically happens when people discovers that subsequent stages exist and some desire to go play tourist because it sounds cool. However, ennui is a good indicator that the current stage is "mined dry". Csikszentmihalyi's flow diagram works itself clockwise and if you're bored, you're near the end of a stage. Don't stay apathetic too long. It's detrimental.

In terms of stages, the goal in the so-called modern world is for people to max out as either experts in their field or get to the top of their companies (the corner office). Hence the prevailing advice to "just find a job you're passionate about" (unspoken assumption: jobbing is all there is to life, the fish don't see the water) and maybe learn "office politics". All of this is very very conventional.

Questioning the water or the matrix marks the transition from so-called conventional stages to post-conventional stages. FIRE is a good way to facilitate this transfer and establish a bridge head and ERE is an interesting way of consolidating the bridgehead. You're asking how much? That really depends. You've probably seen all the discussions about semi-ERE, FU money, and belt&suspenders portfolios. Everybody talks their book. Personal attitude changes by circumstances but also by what kind of person you are---especially if you keep climbing the development ladder.

Answers can be given in terms of the number of years of savings using the standard format. Some say 2 months, others says 2 or 25 years you, some want 100+ years. What I can say is that one might not actually find the answer one is looking for in the number of years that one's past self figured one could find it in. E.g. "I'm sure I'll figure it out given 10 years" ... well 10 years can pass in a jiffy. If you value always moving forward as opposed to falling back [for more years in the salt mines of expertise] and trying again later, you need enough reserves to sustain a push which may take longer than your present self thinks it does.

I'm basing my general observations on https://www.actualized.org/wordpress/wp ... reuter.pdf and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psy ... cteristics

lightfruit55
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:47 pm

Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by lightfruit55 »

Replies to OOTB and jacob

Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

@OOTB – I really appreciate your comment that the recurrent themes in my journal are not “lame”. Whenever I post or want to post, I find myself comparing my content with other forummers as it seems that I am stuck in the “same-old” and slow in my development to find a way forward – thus my posts of little value. This generally makes me hesitant to post more. It is very reassuring to know that my rumination on the same issues is helpful to other readers. Re Plotkin, I have to say that I have seen his name/works very frequently in the forum – it seems that many of you guys are already very familiar with his works and all the jargons, but they are so foreign to me; I cannot understand, don’t know where to start and too shy to ask. Thanks so much for the introductory essay (even the first read was a lot to digest and I definitely need to re-read it a couple more times) and I’ll be very happy for you to share with me the digital books. Are there links you can conveniently share? Otherwise, let me know which ways are convenient for you.

@jacob – So many new concepts in your post that I’d not thought of before. I’m also hearing of “Csikszentmihalyi” for the first time. I’ve googled him, bookmarked some articles, and am looking forward to see how his work can be helpful. Prior to your post, I did not think of my progress (or lack thereof) as “exhausting and consolidating a phase” to build a firm foundation for foray into subsequent stages. This is such a helpful and positive framing (considering my personal disposition to think of myself as generally inadequate)!! Re the “semi-ERE/FU” level of security, etc, I agree that the number is personal and thanks also for the caution that one “needs enough reserves to sustain a push [forward] which may take longer than your present self thinks it does”. And it’s really not just about financial security/independence, isn’t it. More and more so, at least for me, inspiration and creativity (compared to financial security/independence) seems to be more in lack and also harder to find.

Of ill health and introspection

I am just coming out of one of the most debilitating (at least so far in my life) medical episode. Don’t want to disclose too much – I tend to recover quite quickly in the past (usually within 3-4 days) but this time it took almost 2 weeks. I’m only just starting to recover. It was a rather dark period and indeed, true to past experiences (though not of this same intensity), being infirm really allows one to see past the trifling “day to day” worries and be more introspective about life and its meaning. I have quite a few deep thoughts on various aspects of my life, but I would like to focus this post on my relationship with eating and food.

This is not the first time this year that I’ve been down with health problems. In fact, this year has been particularly inauspicious for me health-wise. There were quite a few other episodes of ill health, but I would say that Covid and this current episode were by far the worst. In both these cases, not only did I feel so feeble and in pain, I also had senses and pleasures stripped away from me. To smell, to taste and to have appetite are really blessings for which I should never take for granted going forward.

Relationship with eating and food

I consider myself fairly good at establishing, refining and maintaining a habit. And what has worked for me over the years (for my financial, fitness, wellness, skincare habits) was to identify intrinsic motivation and to carve out a (unique) identity to couch the desired habit.

Every year or so, I target to adopt a new habit. The goal this year was to establish more mindful eating habits and to eat in moderation. I think I’ve done pretty alright so far but something did not feel right. I am generally mindful when I eat and try not to overeat even the slightest (associating overeating with disgusting imagery of low-class gluttony works for me). But my general attitude to food is still more of “control” rather than of identity and expression.

Through my Covid and recent health episodes, where I practically could not eat (either due to loss of senses and/or appetite), I had yearned deeply to be able to enjoy eating again (at some points, and I apologise if it sounds too hyperbolic, I had thought that I might never experience such joy again). The deprivation gave me the space to think long and hard about the value of eating well and what I want my identity to be vis-à-vis food upon my recovery.

Eating well is to be a big part of what I consider to be my “good life”. Eating well is more than healthy eating. Apart from nutrients, eating well needs to provide pleasure and leisure. Eating well should also be balanced with my other habits. I want to eat in an epicurean manner. To me, that means:
- eating until “enough” (there should not be a sense of deprivation nor control, and there should also not be overeating);
- eating with an “abundance mentality” (if the food is great, I should eat only until “enough”, with the mindset that I can always enjoy the same meal another time)
- eating food that tastes good, preferably food that is fresh and healthy (e.g. high quality meats, fresh vegetables and fruits). But if the food is not healthy, then it should at least be freshly-prepared, of high quality and be consumed in moderation (e.g. freshly-baked goods made with high quality ingredients).
- The manner of consuming food must be intentional, leisurely, and surely not rushed.
- The setting in which I eat is important – if at home, the dining table and plates should be free of other clutter and “set”; if outside, ambience and service levels should be considered.
- I should not be concerned with menu prices (within reason as I should have no reason to be, with my current net worth), and should be even less concerned with grocery prices.
- While eating, I need to be able to imagine myself a fine-dining aristocrat – eating with small, mindful, pleasurable, leisurely, bites.

As a corollary, eating well is not: overeating, eating low-quality food, eating unhealthy food in big quantities, eating food that do not taste good, eating processed or stale food, eating in a rushed manner (e.g. while “on the go”), eating with a “value for money” consideration (e.g. avoid “free/VFM upsizes”, prioritizing quantity over quality, etc), being concerned with menu prices (within reason), penny pinching with groceries…

Let’s see if the above identity sticks.

lightfruit55
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:47 pm

Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by lightfruit55 »

Some financial data and reflections:

Liquid Assets
Working capital (current account): ~0.5x
E-fund (high interest savings account): ~3x
Short-mid term investments (treasuries/bonds) (conservative): ~6.5x
Long-term investments (index funds - world and local indexes) (moderate? risk): ~9.5x

Largely Illiquid Assets (Irrelevant for ERE purposes)
Retirement/medical accounts: ~7x
House value: ~18x

Liabilities
Mortgage (my share): ~3.5x

This year's stock market rout is the first major rout I’ve experienced. Since starting my personal finance journey in circa 2013 (also the same time I started on my ERE journey), I don’t think I’ve experienced anything quite like this. As someone who has been conservative from the start, I’ve pretty much missed out on all highs (e.g. growth stocks, crypto, etc) and also all the lows. Actually, I personally don’t consider myself an investor (I don’t even know how to read a financial statement) and more an asset allocator whose priorities are to: (1) sleep well at night and (2) best balance the short, mid and long term.

I feel fairly safe with the above allocation, except that I am very sceptical of the “long term indexing” strategy which I've adopted. However, I don’t know any alternative as I: (1) am not skilled in buying individual stocks; (2) don’t have the time, energy and interest to study and monitor individual stocks; (3) don’t have the risk tolerance to buy individual stocks and (4) can’t be leaving more money under the mattress. As a natural sceptic and pessimist, I just don’t believe that the “stock market/indexes will go up over time”. In between a rock and a hard place, this “long term indexing” is chosen only because I think it’s the marginally better option. The only other option I can think of is to rely on professionally-managed portfolio, and I'm currently thinking of allocating funds into Berkshire Hathaway. If anyone has any other option, or even a kick in the ass to actually start individual stock picking, I’m all ears!

Over the years, I’ve formed the view that as humans, it is very difficult to predict our lives more than 10 years out. Case in point: In less than 10 years, I went from a bright-eyed graduate to an immediately-jaded full timer pursuing financial independence and now consider myself as being in the tail end of a full-time salaryman career. This was all completely unimaginable to me back in college.

As such, it seems to me inefficient and may even be a disservice to plan definitively for any period more than 10 years out. I’m not saying that we should not plan ahead but as our time horizon increases, we must guard against “definitive” kind of thinking and actions that limit future options. Where previously I was of the view that once I reach 30x that I can safety retire and do nothing productive for the rest of my life, I find this way of thinking increasingly foolish.

How then should I plan my life? Some preliminary thoughts:
- Prioritise planning to achieve specific goals in the short to medium term (1 to 10 years), and prioritise having more options in the longer term.
- Keep 10x expenses in accessible and reasonably safe instruments for financial security/freedom in the short to mid term
- Understand and appreciate that I can only have financial security/independence in the mid to short term, and that financial security/independence beyond such time horizon is illusory. And that’s ok! In the short to medium term, the period when it really counts, I should be able to feel financially free to do whatever I want and to always better position myself for the longer term.
- That in fact, appreciating that long term financial security/independence is an illusion may perhaps be a more freeing way of thinking/life.
- Constantly re-evaluate all plans in light of new developments and re-orient.

ertyu
Posts: 2893
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by ertyu »

when you started this journal in 2017 you were aiming to semi-ERE by this time. How do you view that goal presently?

OutOfTheBlue
Posts: 295
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by OutOfTheBlue »

lightfruit55 wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:53 pm
Replies to OOTB and jacob

Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

@OOTB – I really appreciate your comment that the recurrent themes in my journal are not “lame”. Whenever I post or want to post, I find myself comparing my content with other forummers as it seems that I am stuck in the “same-old” and slow in my development to find a way forward – thus my posts of little value. This generally makes me hesitant to post more. It is very reassuring to know that my rumination on the same issues is helpful to other readers. Re Plotkin, I have to say that I have seen his name/works very frequently in the forum – it seems that many of you guys are already very familiar with his works and all the jargons, but they are so foreign to me; I cannot understand, don’t know where to start and too shy to ask. Thanks so much for the introductory essay (even the first read was a lot to digest and I definitely need to re-read it a couple more times) and I’ll be very happy for you to share with me the digital books. Are there links you can conveniently share? Otherwise, let me know which ways are convenient for you.
Bill Plotkin's work can be demanding and quite a departure from previous readings, but you should by no means be intimidated by it. It is meant to be helpful after all.

In my experience, things get enthralling soon enough, as your understanding of his world (and words) deepens. Things quickly start to make a lot of sense.

Each book features a section where he explains his use of specific terms and offers an overview of his models. You can just follow along.

There is also an online glossary: https://www.animas.org/glossary-to-lang ... ul-canyon/

Plotkin is a good guide and there is a lot to be gained at many levels.

I suggest you start with Wild Mind and Nature and The Human Soul, leaving Soulcraft and Journey of Soul Initiation for later, if you feel compelled to reach what he sometimes calls the second adulthood.

Both are important books (with some degree of overlap), and complement each other nicely. You can start by whichever you feel more compelled to read (see see the book descriptions in the links above as well as the overview here: https://www.animas.org/books/).

Wild Mind is a shorter book, one whose concepts and practices can be the most directly empowering. For reading, you may wish to start from that one based on that.

Personally, I started by listening the audiobook version of Nature and The Human Soul (25h of audio, versus 9h30 for Wild Mind - Wild Mind's audio version does not make it any justice, so I can't really recommend it.), and it's human development wheel can be a great starting point, especially if you like listening to books (otherwise, the sheer volume may be off-putting).

I will send you a download link for the digital books on PM.

I felt somehow compelled to share Bill Plotkin's work based on your journal, so I am happy that you're picking up the recommendation and look forward to seeing what you'll get out of it!

lightfruit55
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:47 pm

Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by lightfruit55 »

ertyu wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:09 am
when you started this journal in 2017 you were aiming to semi-ERE by this time. How do you view that goal presently?
The "semi-ERE" goal was a worthy one, but looking back, the thought process behind the goal was shallow. (The term "semi-ERE" is to me an increasingly loaded term and I'm not confident of giving it a definition. So let me just use that term loosely.) The initial thinking behind my "semi-ERE" goal was to accumulate enough money to feel financially secure and to transition into part-time/coasting(?) kind of work and sail into the sunset... Well, it turns out that "enough" is not easy to pin down - global/market/life conditions change, financial insecurities waxes and wanes and the goal post keeps shifting (backwards, more often than not). Financial security exists on a spectrum and while I don't feel that I have "enough" yet, I've definitely achieved some level of financial security through my pursuit of this "semi-ERE" goal. Also, it now seems to me that the "retire TO/semi-ERE TO" is the harder and increasingly interesting(?) problem, likely arising from luck and privilege of being somewhat financially secure now and life being (almost too) comfortable at present. I still want to "semi-ERE" but this desire is now driven less by "escapism" and more by wanting to experience a "non-salaried-man" life experience. And I'm now also under less illusion that "semi-ERE" is the better life; it is probably just a different type of life.
OutOfTheBlue wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:38 am
I felt somehow compelled to share Bill Plotkin's work based on your journal, so I am happy that you're picking up the recommendation and look forward to seeing what you'll get out of it!
Thank you! I've received your PM and have also replied!

lightfruit55
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:47 pm

Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by lightfruit55 »

This is not a year-end reflection post - that should come soon. Instead, this post is about an issue that I have been struggling for way too many years. It always seems too personal to share, and after having read countless opinions on this issue and even gone through couple therapy (we stopped midway because it was getting very heated and going nowhere), I know there is no right answer. Anyway, I’ve not had the courage to put pen to paper on this struggle so far. But it crossed my mind earlier today that maybe I should and that maybe seeing words on the screen can help me see through this issue more clearly.

The issue: To have a child or not? Obviously, this issue does not just impact me alone. My partner has always wanted a kid and I’ve always been on the fence, with a bias towards being childfree. I know this issue should have been sorted out before marriage and this has always been a point of (respectful) contention during our dating years but we have never been able to reach a conclusion. Nevertheless, my partner willingly took a chance that I would eventually warm up to the idea of having a kid. Well, it has been more than 3 years of marriage and I’m still nowhere close to an answer. From a biological perspective, I do not have much time left. I will need to make this decision in the next 2-3 years. Life is so unfair for women in this regard.

As mentioned above, I’ve always been on the fence on this issue, with a bias towards being childfree. And I still am. As long as I’m not willing to undergo any medical procedure to become infertile, I suppose there is a part of me that is still considering having a child. To be clear, I’m not entirely considering having a child for my partner’s sake (though it is an influencing factor). I’m not so sure that having a child is a “couple” decision anymore than it is a “personal” decision.

These are the conflicting feelings that I’m struggling with:

Why I’m considering having a child

- If we accept that to be human is to acquire life experiences, then I would think that raising a child is up on the higher rungs on being one of the most intense life-changing journey/experience. I will never know the veritable highs and lows of being a parent until I become one. If I choose to be childfree, then I would be missing out on this intense life journey/experience.

- I grew up in a big and close-knit family and have reaped/still reaping the many benefits (economic, social, security, etc) of close familial ties with parents, siblings and other extended family members. There is great (I would go so far to say, almost unparalleled) joy, love and value in building and maintaining a close-knit family.

Why I lean towards being childfree

- Having and raising a child is essentially Russian roulette. Everything can go south very fast. From risk in childbirth to having a child with special needs to raising a rotten human being despite best efforts. These outcomes would be disastrous for my life and I don’t think I’m willing to bear the cross. There is also no exit strategy. (I always consider exit strategies. One of the main reasons why I was/am not opposed to marriage in general is because there is the exit strategy of divorce. Initially, my partner wanted to get married but I did not see the need when we could simply live together. This was also a big point of contention between us. I ultimately agreed to get married considering the housing/social benefits, and because there is the exit strategy of divorce in the worst case. It sounds horrible I know, and I think it stems from a deep-rooted fear of dependence or being “stuck”. Overtime though, I learnt the joys and emotional security of being “legally married” and I feel so grateful for this marriage experience so far.)

- I know that wanting to have a child shouldn’t be a financial decision, but it is to me. I’m not FI yet but have worked hard over the years and to be in a decent place. I am somewhat coasting in my full-time professional life and hope to downshift from full time professional life soon. Having a child will be a tremendous setback from a financial perspective, and I can’t bear the thought of having to put in the hard yards again in my professional life. It’s horrible to have a child and not be willing to work hard to give him/her the best possible life, like my parents had done for me and my siblings.

- I will end up shouldering most of the childbearing responsibilities, simply by virtue of my personality (type A, perfectionist, highly conscientious, somewhat OCD, more high-strung and stressed about things in general) vs my partner (type B, laid back). My partner is a responsible but "more moderate” person, so it will be unfair for me to resent him for my undertaking childbearing responsibilities when they are based on my “more perfectionist” standards, not his.

- I believe that one can lead a happy and fulfilling life childfree. There seems to also be a lot of internet confirmation on this.

- I don’t seem to have strong maternal instincts. But it could be that my maternal instincts would only kick in once I have a child of my own or it could be that my fears/anxieties about childbearing/rearing prevents me from even accessing or developing maternal instincts. I also don’t know whether “material instincts” are a real scientific thing. Some articles seem to dispel such instincts as hogwash.

- This point is only theoretical. As a thought experience, if I were to learn that I’m infertile, I don’t think that I would be particularly upset. I would just feel “numb” I guess, and possibly also slightly relieved that I don’t need to make a choice.

It was cathartic writing the above. I don’t have any answers, except that my partner and I are exploring an intermediate solution(if it is at all?) of having a pet in the meantime. I’m personally hesitant to have a pet as it seems quite burdensome to have to expand resources to take care of a perpetual child. But I acknowledge that they can be cute, can bring lots of joy as a "couple project", and can hopefully open my mind towards having a child. All with the failsafe that if I don’t like the experience of raising a pet, I can always put it up for adoption in the worst case.

Finally, I am also always painfully aware that I could going about my life all wrong. Life should not be about avoiding or minimising responsibilities/stress/risks, failsafes, minimalism, etc. What a p*ssy way to live.

AxelHeyst
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by AxelHeyst »

Have you ever done work to try to define, or sense, or intuit, what it is you do want? I mean, how much effort have you put into defining your freedom-to, into exploring even the sensations that arise when you spend time envisioning and sensing different potential visions of your future self? Not future selves as a result of some circumstances that happen to you, but future selves as a result of converting will and intent into action and reality?

bostonimproper
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by bostonimproper »

My initial reaction is that you give a lot of reasons why having a kid might be scary (financial burden, unequal burden with spouse, will I be maternal enough?, etc.). But pretending those concerns could be worked out or eliminated, do you think you’d actually find joy in being a parent? If you’re holding yourself back because of a bunch of anxieties, that’s something you and your partner can tackle together. If, instead, the idea of being a parent in itself is unappealing— then that’s a whole different kettle of fish.

Also, and this is just my two cents, you shouldn’t get a pet as a “compromise.” Rehoming an animal, should it come to that, is not a small thing— they’re living beings with attachments too. Beyond that, they’re not really a replacement or a good proxy for children. If your husband really wants a kid? Frankly, he should be able to live the life he wants. And if you don’t want a kid? You should also be able to live the life you want. Those lives, unfortunately, may not be compatible long-term.

ertyu
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by ertyu »

To be honest, reading your post, you don't sound like a person who desires parenthood for its own sake. Imo that's the only case when one should have children -- or when circumstances thrust them on one and make one realize, you know what, i'd be up to that actually.

You have identified a number of scenarios you're worried might come into play. What would you do if they happen? How would you act?

haha meantime bi said essentially said the same thing: if you were to address or resolve your worries sufficiently well, would you enjoy being a parent? And what if one of the negatives were to occur, what then?

lightfruit55
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by lightfruit55 »

@AxelHeyst - I hope I'm understanding your point correctly. In terms of effort, I would say its mostly "mental" in nature. Whenever I come across a new lifestyle, I think deeply about it, read about others' experiences, and often try to envision myself in that lifestyle. With regard to converting "will and intent" into "action and reality", I'm not sure I'm there yet. I am not inspired enough by anything to actually have any "will and intent" towards a specific future. I think the bigger issue is that I don't have a strong enough vision of an ideal future, and not that I lack courage to make that a reality.

lightfruit55
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by lightfruit55 »

bostonimproper wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:08 am
My initial reaction is that you give a lot of reasons why having a kid might be scary (financial burden, unequal burden with spouse, will I be maternal enough?, etc.). But pretending those concerns could be worked out or eliminated, do you think you’d actually find joy in being a parent? If you’re holding yourself back because of a bunch of anxieties, that’s something you and your partner can tackle together. If, instead, the idea of being a parent in itself is unappealing— then that’s a whole different kettle of fish.
It is difficult for me to pretend that these concerns could be worked out or eliminated. I honestly don't know if I will find intrinsic joy in being a parent. For most people, parenthood seems to be a fulfilling life experience and I'm hoping (?) it will be the case if I choose to have a kid. Furthermore, as mentioned, having the privilege to have a loving family, I do see the many benefits of having a similar one. I'm concerned that I could be missing out on a unique life experience, the *possible* joys I may experience, and the loss of what could be also a loving future family.
bostonimproper wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:08 am
Also, and this is just my two cents, you shouldn’t get a pet as a “compromise.” Rehoming an animal, should it come to that, is not a small thing— they’re living beings with attachments too. Beyond that, they’re not really a replacement or a good proxy for children. If your husband really wants a kid? Frankly, he should be able to live the life he wants. And if you don’t want a kid? You should also be able to live the life you want. Those lives, unfortunately, may not be compatible long-term.
I don't mean to sound cavalier about rehoming a pet and sorry if it sounded awful. Obviously, pets deserve to be wanted and to be well-taken care of. I believe myself to be responsible and will try my very best to be a "pawrent". I do envision myself giving my pet a very good life (like those instagram pet moms) but just in case, I'm really not cut out to take care of another living thing, I think that the best option for the pet is to find it a more willing owner.

I agree that both my partner and I should be able to live the lives that we want. We have talked this issue to death pre and post marriage, and have accepted that our wishes may not be compatible in the long run. But as mentioned, this issue is more than just about my partner (I'm clear about what he wants). Rather what I'm not clear is whether I myself want to have to kid or not.

lightfruit55
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Re: Lightfruit55's Journal

Post by lightfruit55 »

ertyu wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:13 am
To be honest, reading your post, you don't sound like a person who desires parenthood for its own sake. Imo that's the only case when one should have children -- or when circumstances thrust them on one and make one realize, you know what, i'd be up to that actually.
By "desiring parenthood for its own sake", do you mean for purely altruistic reasons? Well, if the only good reasons to have a kid are altruistic, then I don't qualify. In fact, my considerations about having a kid are mostly me-centric: missing out on a unique life experience, the *possible* joys I may experience, and the loss of a possible loving future family.

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