BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Simple living, extreme early retirement, becoming and being wealthy, wisdom, praxis, personal growth,...
7Wannabe5
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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

“jacob” wrote: I think once the post-conventional threshold has been crossed, it becomes hard to find meaning and satisfaction in "being the best cog you can be". I do remember that stage of my life. I don't think I can become that person again.
True, but you can also “deconstruct” any environment and put it back together however you like. You can do permaculture in a hotel. You can hold a perspective on the path to a new “!tech career!” as not being dissimilar to turning on your dating profile one Thursday leading to snacking on “free” olives and cheese out of some old affluent divorced guy’s fridge at 2 in the morning the following Saturday.

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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:52 pm
True, but you can also “deconstruct” any environment and put it back together however you like.
I don't think that's how reality works :geek: Not effectively anyway. If the construction/perspective/model doesn't match reality---one can judge the match as a percentage---it's going to misguide. It will lead to wrong conclusions where the outcome doesn't fit the expected outcome. Tweaking it is going to cost more than having the correct/matching construct in the first place. Some constructs work better than others. Some don't work at all.

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Viktor K
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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by Viktor K »

if i don’t want to be a cog, and i feel like i have to be a cog, then i exert a lot of energy (cost) trying to be that cog

i have found that i can exert a similar amount of energy (or maybe even less, once momentum sets in) and just be me, a not perfect cog, and fall in wherever well enough.

who knows maybe my hipster ways will catch on

7Wannabe5
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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote: If the construction/perspective/model doesn't match reality---one can judge the match as a percentage---it's going to misguide. It will lead to wrong conclusions where the outcome doesn't fit the expected outcome.
True, but the fun is mostly to be found in the land of unknown outcomes.

Also, if you were constructing an overall model of a system such as "the tech industry" and you noted a predictable outcome such as "age, sex, and classism in hiring" then that predictability could likely be a weakness that you could somehow exploit.

"Put it back together however you like" was a sloppy way of expressing the ability to see all the different ways you might intersect/interfere with the system beyond the conventional.

7Wannabe5
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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Cc

UrbanHomesteader
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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by UrbanHomesteader »

After catching up on this thread earlier today, I have been mulling over the ageism issues brought up. Specifically ideas around being too old for tech or too old to hang with the 20 something backpacker crowd etc. I have a couple of data points and ideas to add on how we can help improve our outcomes:

I have a lot a family members in tech, and while they do talk about problems of ageism and sexism, some of them also exemplified the exceptions to the rule. I have 3 female family members who have worked in tech, including one who got started around 40 and is still in a high level tech position in her mid-sixties.

Also, a lot of the thinking is around the stereotypes that hiring managers are buying into. However, from what I understand there is actually a wide variety of work in the field, being done in a variety of settings and a shortage of skilled workers. So, if a person can build and demonstrate the skills, there is a good chance they can find a niche to put those skills to work, even if they don’t fit the tech bro stereotype. I also have a tech bro as an actual brother who says hiring managers don’t hire for part time workers, yet he has managed to secure part time work when he made it a priority.

Also, I think as we get into middle age, we need to be careful not to over-identify with our age, because doing so can make it weird for others. For example, when I was 35 I was thrown in to an apartment with an 18 year old while doing a language study and host family thing. Basically, we were doing the same activities but we were at different life stages. We were getting along great, but I noticed something shift after I laughed about being almost twice her age. It was fine, but I made it weird by comparing ages. I have been more careful about calling attention to age differences since then, and it has improved my interactions with people older and younger than myself.

Part of being on the FI journey is that we are well positioned to break the mould and buck the trend. Our success does not depend on fitting a stereotype or a specific brand of FI, it depends on our ability to assess circumstances and take appropriate actions.

So, if you find yourself later in life wanting to embark on an endeavor, and after taking stock you determine the risk/reward is worth it to you personally, more power to you!

Western Red Cedar
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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by Western Red Cedar »

thrifty++ wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:18 pm
I recently came across a few modalities of FIRE which I found somewhat entertaining and also useful as a means of breaking down progress.

I have heard the phrase fatFIRE for a long time and its clearly not my bag or very ERE oriented.
Nobody here has referenced ChubbyFIRE - the space between typical FIRE and FatFIRE. It is not quite as catchy as DumpsterFire, which I'd like to hear more about :lol:

ertyu
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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by ertyu »

It is me, I am DumpsterFire, AMA :lol:

M
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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by M »

UrbanHomesteader wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2022 6:56 pm
So, if you find yourself later in life wanting to embark on an endeavor, and after taking stock you determine the risk/reward is worth it to you personally, more power to you!
+1. I would consider ageism to actually be the exception to the rule in tech, and not the rule per se. You can certainly do well at any age and I have worked with plenty of software engineers who do well at 60+ years of age. The examples I pointed out in my career were more surprising to me than anything. When I first started I did not think that ageism existed in the modern age.

There are some companies where ageism existed and, in retrospect, I probably should have avoided those companies anyway, regardless of age. These were the most hyper competitive, ego driven, toxic places I have worked. Management lied about everything and did everything in their power to squeeze more work effort out of everyone, including firing all the older engineers and using this to threaten the younger engineers. This backfired on them since we all simply quit and found better jobs. They probably wish they would have never fired those older engineers these days. :lol:

I would think of age as a sort of 10% handicap in tech. It might make things a little more challenging but I would not use this as a reason to not do tech, especially in a field where the income is so high and the work is so easy relative to the income. Some companies are ageist. If you are old, simply avoid those companies.

Similarly, I don't have a bachelor's degree. Some companies require this, regardless of experience, so I simply don't work for those companies. Is this a handicap? Absolutely. Did this stop me from becoming millionaire thirty something year old tech bro despite having four kids and a spouse who has never worked outside the home? Not at all.

And I largely have the tech world to thanks for this.

M
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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by M »

Western Red Cedar wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:55 pm
Nobody here has referenced ChubbyFIRE - the space between typical FIRE and FatFIRE. It is not quite as catchy as DumpsterFire, which I'd like to hear more about :lol:
+1 - I would also like to hear more about this DumpsterFire. :lol:

ducknald_don
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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by ducknald_don »

M wrote:
Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:58 am
+1. I would consider ageism to actually be the exception to the rule in tech, and not the rule per se.
Not in my experience. I've seen many good people pushed out just because of their age. I'm sure you can find exceptions but they seem to be the minority. My son's employer is a good example, they only hire straight out of university so at 35 he is one of the oldest employees there. I was able to avoid it by starting my own business.

M
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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by M »

ducknald_don wrote:
Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:58 am
Not in my experience. I've seen many good people pushed out just because of their age. I'm sure you can find exceptions but they seem to be the minority. My son's employer is a good example, they only hire straight out of university so at 35 he is one of the oldest employees there. I was able to avoid it by starting my own business.
Interesting. It sounds like we have had different experiences. I have seen people get pushed out just because they are old, but I've also seen a lot more old people continue working in tech. I live in the Midwest of USA and have mostly worked as a software engineer for non-technical companies so maybe it is different here. The one true tech company that I worked at was the place pushing out old people.

My current team, for example, all software engineers, the ages are 36(myself),37, 43, 45, 51, 51, 52, 55, 58, 59, and a 62 year old guy who just left to work what as a software engineer somewhere else. There are several others in their fifties somewhere, not sure of their exact ages. I'm the youngest person here. We routinely hire people in their fifties as well - several of these people were just hired last year. The pay is not very good here though, only around 120k-150k. Maybe there is more ageism in the higher paying companies, idk.

It would be interesting to hear from someone working in big tech in silicon valley about their experience with ageism, since that is where all the money seems to be at.

WFJ
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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by WFJ »

Random thoughts: Ageism: There are two reasons for this 1. Up or out and 2. Salt mines.

1. There are several jobs which although advertise specific skills, the job is a "Survivor" contest to identify future partners. Accounting, Law, Investment Banking are examples where entry level jobs are more of a partner track survivor game rather than performing the job functions of the ad. Although 2 applicants maybe equally qualified for the entry level job, a 25-year-old would make partner at the age of 35 and could serve the partnership for 15-30 years providing much more potential revenue, than a 50-year-old applicant who could make partner at 60, then maybe work as a partner for 5 years. Although both applicants are equally qualified, any business would hire the younger applicant if the job is an "up or out" type of regime.

2. Salt Mine: I've been on both sides of an interview table where once the interview ends the unspoken result of the interview is "This guy will never put up with the ______ this job requires" and only younger debt-written, naive employees can perform the job for long enough to justify the training. In several financial firms looking for future managers, they rarely hire people with experience and prefer people with no experience.

Jobs that are more technical, doctor, nurse, data analyst, where there is almost no "Up or Out" regime are unlikely to have any ageism.
Last edited by WFJ on Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

UrbanHomesteader
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Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by UrbanHomesteader »

A lot of the talk about ageism is specifically about the hiring manager for a standard career track job. In many fields it is totally possible to make money on a freelance and or contract basis, after having built the skills outside a standard job. The alternative track may be very appropriate for various flavors of FI.

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