80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

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Scott 2
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80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by Scott 2 »

Stumbled across this organization the other day. Maybe 10,000 hours would be a better name for ERE folks. Their question - how to direct a career into positive societal impact:

https://80000hours.org/

Reflecting back on the first 40,000 hours of my career - at best my contribution was net neutral. I was mired in my own insecurities and never considered an effective altruism lens. Towards the end, employer decisions fostering a negative impact became hard to tolerate.

Some things I like about the message they are selling, beyond effective altruism:

1. It's not focused on pure philanthropy. One can both profit and make an impact.
2. The suggested roles treat life satisfaction and offer a growth path. Often, I think charity asks people to make their lives secondary to a mission.
3. They consider the individual's personal skill set and affinities. There's no blanket recommendation.
4. They are realistic about the marginal impact another body makes. Climate change isn't cause #1, even though it might be important.

I'm going to dig a little deeper into their book and associated references over the next month or two. Thought I'd open some discussion here.

guitarplayer
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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by guitarplayer »

.

[sorry, just noticed that the question I had here was answered in the thread's title]

candide
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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by candide »

I have only looked at 80,000 Hours materials a time or two, so I can't speak to if they have always been better or became more pluralistic recently, but I found Effective Altruism as a whole to take on a lot of aspects I didn't really enjoy about the online Rationalist "community." My personal term for it is "boat circling" which is based on a quote from Wall Street Journal article that now has a link that doesn't work and is most certainly buried under a paywall. So, no citation, but here's the quote
We once trained an AI to maximize its score in a virtual boat- race game, but instead of navigating the course as quickly as possible, the AI taught itself to exploit a flaw in the game by driving in circles and racking up bonus points while also crashing into walls and setting itself on fire.
There are a lot of people willing to optimize for only variable at the expense of understanding anything complex. In practice, it seemed that they thought altruism was settled -- don't think your job should be helpful, instead earn as much as you can and give to mosquito nets, counting the number of lives your money saves as a kind of trophy. The only other way I see them boat circle is existential risk, which they see AI as one of the foremost. I remember the complete lack of understanding I got when I posited that soil health could be serious a problem.

I also remember a discussion that went along the lines "we've got to stop just reaching normal people. . . if we could convince a few billionaires, surely that would be more effective." Another reference: Peter and Valentine from Ender's Game, just trying to carve up the world from their computer terminals.

A lot of privileged people, blinded by their privilege, normalizing the world of the high earners, looking for techno-fixes.

ETA: but hey, 80,000 Hours may be a bright spot in all that now. YMMV.
Last edited by candide on Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GardenDee
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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by GardenDee »

My 23yo son stumbled into this via a conference at Stanford. He is now working at MIT and there are several groups at other Ivy colleges here and in the UK. When he describes it I just think that it is purely a think tank for the wealthy / privileged, although I keep my opinions to myself ;). He has tried to get work in various fields under the umbrella of Effective Altruism, but I think he is coming to the realization that it is not a particularly lucrative field and that he needs to focus on getting a real job to pay the bills. EA seems to be more of a philosophy and that just doesn't pay the rent in a city like Boston.

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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by candide »

GardenDee wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:14 pm
When he describes it I just think that it is purely a think tank for the wealthy / privileged, although I keep my opinions to myself ;).
Usually wise as a parent to let adult children figure out things for themself. I agree with your assessment of Effective Altruism, though.
GardenDee wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:14 pm
EA seems to be more of a philosophy and that just doesn't pay the rent in a city like Boston.
My how times have changed if you cannot be a philosopher in Boston. If not there, where?

Scott 2
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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by Scott 2 »

I can understand the criticisms. The 80000 hours leaders are young thinkers. The website director is featured prominently in their welcome email series. She just finished school in 2020, after spending a decade studying philosophy:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/arden-koehler-2623a14a/

The founder holds a masters philosophy and physics from Oxford. Though he has been at the cause for 10 years:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjamin-j-todd/

I suppose I'm curious about the perspective, from a collection of young brilliant minds.

candide wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:17 pm
A lot of privileged people, blinded by their privilege, normalizing the world of the high earners, looking for techno-fixes.
It wouldn't be a stretch to apply those first three criteria to my former career. Could be part of why I see appeal. Looking for fixes is an upgrade.

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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by candide »

I really like seeing the path you are on. You are a seeker. You are able to question the frames that are presented to you. But most laudable, in my eyes, is your empathy for others.

If you get involved in EA, I think you are well-suited to making it better. For what it is worth, I have given to "Give Direct," one of the recommend charities before, and at this point would consider it as my charity to leave in a Will in case disaster stuck with my wife and child.

The problem I see with techno-fixes is that, to reference Jacob in ERE the book, you can't fix a problem with the same mindset that caused it.

Just keep the criticisms in mind, try to bring the outside in, and, yeah, you can do good in the world.

Scott 2
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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by Scott 2 »

They made good on the promise of a free book. I've got a copy of 80000 Hours by my nightstand:

https://80000hours.org/book-giveaway/


In the interim, I listened to one of the other books: Doing Good Better: Effective Altruism and How You Can Make a Difference

The reduction of effective charity to quality adjusted life years didn't fully resonate with me. It's tough to connect with the plight of an abstract person across the world. I already struggle to do that with someone in front of me. I did appreciate the suggestion to consider one's marginal impact on any chosen cause. The analysis of one doctor's impact was enlightening. The discussion around valuing the act of voting was also interesting.

My stronger takeaway was probably how many chances to "do good" we take, that don't do much of anything. Fair trade coffee was one example. Avoiding sweatshop clothes another. Charity as a product mostly enriches the middle man. I'm drawn to these small gestures, since they are easy. Maybe less so now. Similar with a widely invested problem like cancer research, or a largely intractable problem like immigration.

I've started another of the their books - The Precipice: Existential Risk and the Future of Humanity, which gets into the existential risk focus Candide mentioned up thread. I can see how thinking in the older work would head this way. It's probably not my direction, but understanding the perspective is interesting.

Barring the sudden development of entrepreneurial skills, earn to give does stand out as my biggest altruistic lever. Yet I'm not doing it, which maybe gives an honest consideration of my character.

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canoe
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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by canoe »

A lot of their information is useful even from a purely selfish point of view in my experience.

guitarplayer
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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by guitarplayer »

Thanks for the link @Scott 2, I have ordered the 80,000 book as well.

Scott 2
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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by Scott 2 »

I finished The Precipice. It ends on a surprisingly upbeat note. If man can survive existential risk, we can spread through the universe, surviving for billions of years. Compared to the few thousand years of civilization so far, the scale is immense. Hence existential risk being the most important problem.

I tend to think mankind has already ruined the planet and will drive itself to extinction in the next couple centuries. The book argues this isn't a novel sentiment. That people in every generation feel similar. But catastrophe does not equate to the total extinction of mankind. Even something like runaway global warming, while tragic, will leave habitable pockets for humanity.

It's hard for me to connect with the plight of a quantified person across the world. Doing the same across infinite time... there's nothing. While I understand the argument, it triggers no response. I'm not alone in that. The author even writes about the discounting problem. It's part of why the marginal impact of another person's involvement is theoretically so high.

There's a high level summary of the book on his website:

https://theprecipice.com/faq

While it's not my thing, he's built a career around ideas like this:

https://www.philosophy.ox.ac.uk/people/toby-ord

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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by guitarplayer »

I read 80,000 hours now, a very quick read indeed especially compared to trying to read Peter Singer. The framework works for me very well, a tool to help one get out of bed and engage with the world.

About a decade ago I had a lofty idea of doing good via research but ended up in an 'earn to give' position which I quickly ditched as couldn't bear it being too instrumental. Then got involved in 'direct work' for a number of years and looks like now will be coming back to research+advocacy. Coupled with ERE, like via any other job in the developed world, I am and will remain also in the 'earn to give' position.

@candide, in the 80,000 hours book (p. 124)
Benjamin Todd wrote: [...] personal fit is one of the key factors to look for in a job. We think of "personal fit" as your chances of excelling at a job, if you work at it.
Personal fit is like a multiplier of everything else. So, if we put together everything we've covered so far, this would be our formula for a perfect job:

[career capital+impact+supportive conditions] x personal fit
I view the personal fit as a safety valve against the boat spinning circles, crashing into walls and setting itself on fire (reading this was pretty funny). If one's personal fit is being a teacher, all the better for the pupils! They also talk about preconditions for doing good, e.g. taking care of physical and mental health, having 12-18 months emergency fund etc; in many ways they are pretty ERE.

@GardenDee, @candide, I would agree that the think tank is for the wealthy / privileged. And like they mention (p.44) this group is essentially the vast majority of the residents of the developed world. This is more striking having come from a developing part of the world and all too easy to forget by the born and bread developed world folk.

@Scott 2 thanks for starting the thread, I will read the other books.

Scott 2
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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by Scott 2 »

New Yorker article on the effective altruism movement:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022 ... e-altruism

Wordy, but an accurate summary of what I've read. One of the 80,000 hours co-founders is dropping a new book:

https://whatweowethefuture.com/

guitarplayer
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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by guitarplayer »

I read that New Yorker article, and couldn't help but think of what @jennypenny wrote a while back in @AH's journal:
jennypenny wrote:
Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:12 am
I personally like the idea of small enclaves operating under the radar and then developing a loose network of durable tribes. I kind of dread the day that ERE loses its garage band status even though it would be better for the planet. Maybe that's the GenXer in me talking.
This sentiment might just be a cross generational thing because I'm a millennial.

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Slevin
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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

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guitarplayer
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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by guitarplayer »

Yeah totally I thought about it as well.

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Slevin
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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by Slevin »

The article gives me robber baron / Andrew Carnegie vibes. “You don’t know what’s good for the world, we do. We can choose what’s best for you.” As well as proto think tank vibes, “I can prove this might be a horrible problem for the world, and, oh hey, it coincides with ideas that will line my pocket.”

Obviously a green criticism, as I’m arguing that there is no such thing as strictly “objective logic”, as these guys are claiming again and again. Not to say that the aim is bad, but I think it is problematic when it leans heavily esoteric into possibility space and they put loads of resources into that. Also I’m not a heavily believer that things they believe are “short term problems” like poverty etc. being short term issues not worth solving, and especially arguing that rich countries are more valuable than poor countries, especially when the core idea just feels drastically against the roots of the foundation that grew it in the first place.

Scott 2
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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by Scott 2 »

I think benefits need to present along the way. At the very least - test if the effort is working and gather feedback to inform future decisions.

Their earlier book - Doing Good Better - acknowledges this need.

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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by Smashter »

I've been a fan of 80,000 Hours and EA for a long time.

One thing I wanted to highlight was how much money there is sloshing around the EA ecosystem right now. And you might be able to get some of it. I know because I just did!

Open Philanthropy recently ran a cause exploration contest where they offered cash prizes for people to bring them new ideas of “cause areas” they might not be paying attention to.

I wrote up a couple ideas, posted them to the EA Forum, and I just got an email today saying I’d be paid $200 for each of my submissions. Pretty cool.

Another writing focused prize comes from Effective Ideas — they are offering $100k prizes to the best EA bloggers.

The FTX Future Fund is the latest example — a crypto billionaire has allocated a lot of money to funding EA projects, mostly in AI, biorisk, and pandemic preparedness. They were accepting grant submissions recently and probably will do that again.

Just thought it might be of interest to the many brilliant folks who are on the forum. I was lucky to see a tweet by someone in the EA community about the cause exploration prize. Following EA people on twitter seems like a good way to stay on top of these sorts of things.

Scott 2
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Re: 80,000 Hours - Effective Altruism

Post by Scott 2 »

The collapse of FTX has effective altruism back in the news:

https://www.fastcompany.com/90809796/sa ... e-altruism

A risk of hanging everything off the ultra-wealthy.

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