BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Simple living, extreme early retirement, becoming and being wealthy, wisdom, praxis, personal growth,...
Scott 2
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by Scott 2 »

jacob wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:40 am
I think options vs security is a false dichotomy.
Seeing the false dichotomy is difficult.

Ask my former peers at work - security starts with a net worth around 2.5 million. I'm confident at least two of them hit that, several years ago. They're still working. Hard. Health destroying levels of stress and hours. This is not world changing work. They are trapped by mental constructs.

We had one leader die in the office. Late 40's. Heart attack. One of my former peers ended up in a medically induced coma for weeks. The stress of on call support caught him. Poor sleep. Drinking to cope. It adds up. He was never the same.

The golden handcuffs are real. Those guys might have more options than my Barista FIRE friend on paper. In practice? Their life is headed down a specific, linear path. Every year, it locks down more firmly.

Within that context, the equivalence of money and security feels obvious. One confuses robustness for resilience, but never has cause to question the paradigm.

Even now - I'm stressed to see my conservative financial plan running within parameters. The safety nets are working as designed! But what if they get used up??? Then what will I do? Because my net worth isn't growing by 10%+ per year, my options feel constrained. Poor me. As if I don't have a 10+ year runway, should things fail.


The Barista FIRE path can challenge these misconceptions much sooner, before they become a core part of someone's identity. My friend was living an anti-fragile life, long before we knew the term.


One thing I don't like about the categories, is they draw false lines in the sand. During accumulation, retirement feels like a point in time decision. Past that, the evidence otherwise becomes undeniable. All the number does is give someone permission to try their options. In most cases, they've been available all along.

Unlike @thrifty++, I have some regrets from my FI path. I would have benefited from less focus. My heavy specialization made the world very tolerant of a narrow mindset. I don't think that served me. I spent a lot of time unnecessarily unhappy, fixated on my arbitrary line in the sand.

oldbeyond
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:43 pm

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by oldbeyond »

I think it can be valuable to think in terms of levels of financial freedom, as it puts the emphasis on what has been achieved (be it an emergency fund or 100 years of expenses in TIPS) rather than what is still lacking. The -FIRE variants are basically tribes formed around different such levels in the financial sphere. If you aim to grow in many domains, perhaps your social life or mental health is more deserving of your energies, and it might make sense to consider settling at a lower level financially, at least for a while. Especially if you’re less efficient than jacob and have 10+ years left before FI. Other things beside financial assets compound, too, so to me it seems that opportunity costs are very real not only in dollars, but also i pounds (!), connections and skills

thrifty++
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 3:46 pm

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by thrifty++ »

Scott 2 wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:48 pm
Unlike @thrifty++, I have some regrets from my FI path. I would have benefited from less focus. My heavy specialization made the world very tolerant of a narrow mindset. I don't think that served me. I spent a lot of time unnecessarily unhappy, fixated on my arbitrary line in the sand.
I think for me I was more like those guys you mentioned prior to my pursuit of FI. Eg I was working a very high stress job, although not being paid much because I was young, I was on a timeline to earn a lot of money as I developed. I was also wasting a lot of money on things without realising. Just one example was living by myself as I didnt have a stress threshold to live with flatmates.

Since beginning to pursue FI I have been able to dump ego a lot and took up a less "glamorous" job still with decent pay but with less stress. And then taken up a random side hustle because I had time and stress capacity to do so. And also more recently have begun a process of gradually reducing my hours at my principal job. Most of my focus has been peeling away the mundane expenses. Eg, eliminating routine travel costs, not having a car, chopping down rent by sharing, trimming down food costs, all my clothing costs, alcohol costs, grooming costs, dining and drinks etc. But, I do make allowances for treats. I have done quite a lot of travelling since commencing the pursuit of FI and spent some money on hobbies. I have done it in a frugal way, but still it comes at a cost.

If I had begun the pursuit of FI earlier then I could have done more radical things that I dont have the energy and health for now. Like living in a van to save a truck ton of money. Would have been fun as well. I decided I cant do it now. But it would have been feasible and fun in my early-tpo-mid-20s

theanimal
Posts: 2627
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:05 pm
Location: AK
Contact:

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by theanimal »

The discussion in the last few posts reminds me of a post from @c_L:
classical_Liberal wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:44 pm
Just adding to this, if one does fall into lower Wheaton level traps during accumulation of money, it takes a lot of effort to get rid of those "bad habits". Worshiping too long and hard at the alter of accumulating wealth changes your religious denomination, so to speak. Put another way, it's easier to not smoke cigarettes' if you have never been addicted to them.

How pursuit and acquisition of FI, particularly super FI (in which a hands off approach of managing capital can succeed), impact a persons mental, emotional, philosophical state negatively is something mostly ignored here. But it is a huge issue.
Once obtaining wealth becomes your primary focus and means of safety, you become a slave to it. Often to the detriment of almost everything else.

zbigi
Posts: 977
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:04 pm

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by zbigi »

@theanimal I can see your point. Many people pursue FI in a way that is basically a mother of all delayed gratifications, and doing that to yourself for 10-20 years cannot be good.

User avatar
Viktor K
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:45 pm

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by Viktor K »

I think options =/= security is a valid point of view. At the same time I think it's valid to think that ERE =/= security. Take emotional security, for example.

The risk I've run into in the last few years is thinking that a frugal lifestyle, e.g. following ERE concepts or any of the FIRE's above, is a condition of my worth. This trapped me in seeking value and worth in a lifestyle that was not necessarily the perfect fit for me. I mean, ideally ERE is a perfect match for one person, @jacob, and everyone else has their own ideal version.

Maybe traveling and living a less FIRE-focused lifestyle was a more authentic lifestyle for 20-30 year old @Scott 2.

I think with scarcity, FIRE movements can seem like a way out, or an attempt at living a fulfilled life. Just as watching reels of mansions and nice cars can convince people that that is the way for their own ideal life, where in reality I think each individual experience is more nuanced.

Scott 2
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by Scott 2 »

Yes - the packaged goal becomes a false idol. It doesn't have to be dollars and FIRE. It could be QALYs and effective altruism.

In my own case - understanding and applying systems theory much earlier, would have been tremendously valuable. My assumptions were ill defined. I didn't test them. Introducing arbitrary disruptions, to find unknown unknowns??? Never. All I wanted was certainty. The packaged goal felt good.

DutchGirl
Posts: 1646
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by DutchGirl »

There's (some) security in having some money in the bank. There's also some security in being able to make do with less. And there definitely is some security in having knowledge and experience and talents to create or fix things so that you don't have to pay others to do it for you, and others will perhaps pay you (or barter with you) to do these things for them.
thrifty++ wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:25 pm
Thats interesting Dutchgirl. So are you doing this now? Working just a few hours each week? How is that going? Sounds ideal.
I have worked parttime for most of my working years. Parttime being 24-30 hours per week. I recently tried getting it down to 16 hours per week, but my workplace kept calling me in for extra hours due to other colleagues quitting or falling ill or pregnant. So that wasn't working and in reality I've worked 28 hours/week on average over the last year (of course also being paid for each hour). However, I'm quitting by the end of October.

My job has an irregular work schedule (hours between 8 AM and 9 PM). I feel like that does make a 24 hour work week just as impactful as, say, a 32 hour work week if the work hours were 9 to 5. Sometimes I finish work at 9 PM and have to be back by 8 AM the next day. Those moments it does not feel like parttime work. But of course, working 24 hours per week does mean that sometimes you end up with a very long weekend or a nice day off smack in the middle of the week. So I guess the impact is similar to working 32 hours per week and having 3 days off per week.

Because I'm not fully FI just yet, I am looking for a new parttime job. Maybe if this time I can find a 9 to 5 one for say three fixed days per week, that will improve my quality of life even more.

OutOfTheBlue
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:59 am

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by OutOfTheBlue »

DutchGirl wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:48 am
There's (some) security in having some money in the bank. There's also some security in being able to make do with less. And there definitely is some security in having knowledge and experience and talents to create or fix things so that you don't have to pay others to do it for you, and others will perhaps pay you (or barter with you) to do these things for them.
Well put!

This quote springs to mind:
Chris Ryan - Civilized to Death wrote:Linguist Daniel Everett spent over twenty years living with the Pirahã, a group of foragers in the upper Amazon. In Don’t Sleep, There Are Snakes, his memoir of those years, Everett writes, “The Pirahã laugh about everything. They laugh at their own misfortune: when someone’s hut blows over in a rainstorm, the occupants laugh more loudly than anyone. They laugh when they catch a lot of fish. They laugh when they catch no fish. They laugh when they’re full and they laugh when they’re hungry.” The laughter of the Pirahã suggests an easy harmony with the world they inhabit—which is the world their minds and bodies expect, because it is essentially the same environment that created them. I don’t mean this in a metaphorical sense; I mean it literally. The people Everett describes are at home in the Amazon jungle in the same way a cactus is at home in the desert. Their lives aren’t easy, but the difficulties and dangers they face are familiar, because they were faced by many previous generations.

[...]

In contrast to the servitude of these early states stand innumerable accounts of the autonomy, personal freedom, and satisfaction of foragers. Consider Everett’s description of the happiness of the Pirahã: “Since my first night among them,” he writes, “I have been impressed with their patience, their happiness, and their kindness. This pervasive happiness is hard to explain, though I believe that the Pirahãs are so confident and secure in their ability to handle anything that their environment throws at them that they can enjoy whatever comes their way.”
How comfortable are you that you can handle anything that comes your way?
Talk about an abundance mindset!

And infinite games.

thrifty++
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 3:46 pm

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by thrifty++ »

DutchGirl wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:48 am
I have worked parttime for most of my working years. Parttime being 24-30 hours per week. I recently tried getting it down to 16 hours per week, but my workplace kept calling me in for extra hours due to other colleagues quitting or falling ill or pregnant. So that wasn't working and in reality I've worked 28 hours/week on average over the last year (of course also being paid for each hour). However, I'm quitting by the end of October.
Thats interesting. That sounds so nice to have been working part time for a long time and still being able to work towards FI.

prudentelo
Posts: 173
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:55 am

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by prudentelo »

@jacob

" Of course everybody is defending their book, including me. However, whereas some might have the pictures and memories of back when they went backpacking in SEA or joined the traveling circus, I have a loaded investment account and I don't have to worry about money or employment. Which is subjectively or objectively better?

"...Do you have any regrets? (In retrospect do you wish you would have made a different choice.) In my case, no."

You also had long time to travel SEA while still relatively speaking young (I mean to say young enough to fit) after FI and didn't do it which syggest you just do not value SEA.

Maybe some people not value financial security. Seems very common to me. and while I dont agree with them, think theyre wrong in many ways, they seem to hack way through, ~none of them die of money deficiencies, in fact many YOLOers appear to encounter less financial issue than lower paid or less smart salarycritters. Maybe due to social capital, experience, certain forced/normalized frugality (usually do not have frugal personality), or jsut plain more drive/energy

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15906
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by jacob »

prudentelo wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:45 pm
Maybe some people not value financial security. Seems very common to me. and while I dont agree with them, think theyre wrong in many ways, they seem to hack way through, ~none of them die of money deficiencies, in fact many YOLOers appear to encounter less financial issue than lower paid or less smart salarycritters. Maybe due to social capital, experience, certain forced/normalized frugality (usually do not have frugal personality), or jsut plain more drive/energy
People seem to increasingly value security as they get older and it gets harder/impossible to socialize the [security] risk onto parents and friends and the drive/energy to hustle for low-skill part-time wages is diminishing. As a life-time strategy one is always trading youth/health for something else whether that be savings, career tenure, hacking, frugality skills, or "memories".

In terms of regrets, YOLOs seem to start rethinking their life around age 30. If frugality wasn't normalized, it will now become forced as parents stop sending money, cosigning car-loans, or taking in the pets that aren't allowed for the next spontaneous relocation. Financial issues aren't life-ending, but they come more to the forefront when the person sees their siblings, non-YOLO friends, ... pulling away financially and optionality-wise. If life-hacking depended on youthful energy rather than skill, these skills are also compromised (malinvestment). There's a good chance of getting trapped in part-time minimum wage land here. Perhaps easy student or credit debt will make up the short fall. In that case, it becomes doubly hard to exit. The hole is dug deeper.

I do have these conversations [with 30yo YOLOs] more often than I want. Usually the person doesn't see the problem ("life is just unfair") because they can't see the problem having been accustomed to seeing the world through "quick and easy" lenses. They did not realize that their optionality rested on amortizing capital (youth and parental goodwill). Even if the individual recommendations are simple, it is very hard to untangle, because the entanglement is complex. Everything practically has to be changed at once. Only times I've seen it work is when the person hitches themselves, perhaps as a fun-loving partner, to someone who knows what they're doing.

User avatar
Seppia
Posts: 2016
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:34 am
Location: South Florida

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by Seppia »

My empirical experience matches Jacob’s.
Unless they are in the top 0.5% of something (family wealth, social skills, beauty, smarts) YOLO people flame out sometime between 25 and 35 years old.

I define YOLO as the opposite of “investing”, meaning giving up X in the future in exchange for a fraction of X today.
This works until the capital* is depleted, then there’s nothing else to pull from the future to the present and the music stops.

The 0.5% outliers I mentioned above usually survive because they had so much capital to begin with, that even by burning through most of it during their YOLO years they are still left with enough to live a decent life.
For example, I know a person who was extraordinarily smart when young but decided to just spend his 20s drinking, smoking weed and avoiding education.
Managed to have a decent salaryman career because he was just too damn smart to begin with. This is obviously a job related example because I have yet to fully exit the cave.

*any form of “capital”. Health, brain cells, money etc.
jacob wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:25 pm
I do have these conversations [with 30yo YOLOs] more often than I want.
I’m curious how this happens?
Did you enjoy a bust of popularity where people will randomly talk to you while grocery shopping at Aldi?
Or are you actively looking for more social interactions with different minded people?

User avatar
Seppia
Posts: 2016
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:34 am
Location: South Florida

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by Seppia »

I will add: my view is that the best way to enjoy a balanced and healthy life is to be “selectively YOLO”.
Similarly to the “you can afford anything, but not everything” adage, I believe a touch of crazy inserted in a structured framework gets us to the best of both worlds (a life that’s enjoyable in the present but still focused on the future)

DutchGirl
Posts: 1646
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by DutchGirl »

prudentelo wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:45 pm
Maybe some people not value financial security. Seems very common to me. and while I dont agree with them, think theyre wrong in many ways, they seem to hack way through, ~none of them die of money deficiencies, in fact many YOLOers appear to encounter less financial issue than lower paid or less smart salarycritters.
I say this is survivorship bias. You see the ones who are "successful" (i.e. still alive and doing well enough to be visible in your daily life), you don't see the ones who are not.

For example, some of my colleagues have to keep working into old age with all types of physical and mental problems, but they cannot quit until the Dutch official retirement age (age 67 these days) because they don't have the money to quit earlier than that, due to the choices they made earlier in life. And actually, my colleagues are not the worst off, of course. They still have a roof over their head and a job and are mobile enough (with painkillers and other types of support) to do that job. And many of them still fly to Turkey or Greece for their summer holiday, enjoying two weeks of the good life before returning home to drudgery. They may not like their life or work, but they will probably eventually make it to retirement (due to social security and the pension that they were forced to save for while working in the Netherlands).

These people were one of the reasons why I started striving for ERE: no way do I want to be in their situation at their age.

...and then recently I also read a "personal story" newspaper article of a lady who is working as a taxi driver at age 65, because earlier she travelled the world (thanks to some inheritances), but ten years ago she ran out of money. She brought her story in the most positive way, which I guess is a good thing to do when you're stuck anyway, but I was shaking my head and I bet some of the people who left her an inheritance would shake their head too.

And then again I am still not seeing the ones who failed the most, because they are not to be found at my workplace or in the newspaper.

I guess instead of doing a case description, or a case control study of YOLO'ers and planners at age 60, we should do a prospective study with two randomized cohorts of people, one group of 12 year olds will be told to YOLO it, the other will be told to work hard towards financial security. And when we do this study, we must make sure that none of them are lost to follow up during the next 60 years.

...

Of course, I do also see the opposite of the YOLO'ers. Specifically I read about them on reddit. The people with the "one more year" syndrome. Or the people with the "one more decade" syndrome. "Are we ready to retire? We have five point four million, our children are secure in their careers, we spend $100k/year, social security payments will be $6k/month for us both combined from age 70 onward; and oh, we are 62 and 64." YES, you have been ready to retire for probably over a decade now. Please go do the things that you want to do most, before you run out of health and life...


PS, while I'm talking anyway...
thrifty++ wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:47 pm
That sounds so nice to have been working part time for a long time and still being able to work towards FI.
This was of course made possible by the fact that I have a higher than average salary (if I were to work fulltime it would probably be around 70k euros/year before taxes; median income is 38k euros/year). And the higher than average salary was made possible by luck and previous hard work.

chenda
Posts: 3289
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Nether Wallop

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by chenda »

I think there was some kind of famous experiment where children were offered a sweet immediately or two sweets later in the day. Those who opted for delayed gratification were more likely to invest in pension schemes later in life it was suggested or something.

IlliniDave
Posts: 3845
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by IlliniDave »

I can add some unscientific observations that agree with what jacob said above. Both my kids were YOLO types and both had life come home to roost at approximately age 30.

Seppia I think had it right, it's not a complete either/or between enjoying life now and having due consideration for the future. I think a both/and that strikes a balance that gives priority to the future without completely sacrificing the now is a healthy place to be.

prudentelo
Posts: 173
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:55 am

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by prudentelo »

TO clarify my early post by "YOLO" I was meaning "someone with alternative non-money focused lifestyle, that is not willing to strive/wait for FI."

Maybe this is different to more general definition of "someone who does not pursue career/success for any reason".

I met quite lot high ability people in former group, doing interesting things, somehow surviving, usually living ERE "by accident" but without the stash, despite not-frugal personality, because driven by desire for alt lifestyle.

Whereas I also know latter group, genrally people that do 4 different degrees, unpaid internship in competitive prestige industry they fail to break in to, or such similar "play acting" at normal corporate career, doing it ineffectively and without result, but not pursuing alternative either.

There is some superficial resemblance especially from distance. Both want to "enjoy each day" for example. I think first group tends to succeed at it more than second.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15906
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by jacob »

Seppia wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:28 pm
I’m curious how this happens?
Did you enjoy a bust of popularity where people will randomly talk to you while grocery shopping at Aldi?
Or are you actively looking for more social interactions with different minded people?
"Where do you work/What do you do for a living?"-type small talk with me answering something like "I don't/I collect interest and dividends" and "I run an online forum about financial independence" has led to getting labelled as the "money guy". I suppose it's similar to how people call you when "they can't get online" once you've become known (to them) as the "computer guy". Think WL0/1 ala "I'm tired of paying bills and living paycheck to paycheck. How do I get some dividends?" I wish there was a "Have you tried switching it off and on?"-type answer.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15906
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: BaristaFIRE, CoastFIRE, LeanFIRE, FatFIRE, PovertyFIRE etc

Post by jacob »

chenda wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:08 am
I think there was some kind of famous experiment where children were offered a sweet immediately or two sweets later in the day. Those who opted for delayed gratification were more likely to invest in pension schemes later in life it was suggested or something.
One FIRE group used to tagline itself as "... for those who DIDN'T eat the marshmallow". I wish I had come up with that.

Post Reply