Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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All I need is a bunch of growing plants on my countertop and the three little bugs that have inhabited the space to bliss out a bit, but deep wilderness is much more likely to send me time-shifting transcendent. OTOH, I am completely missing the genes for enjoying competitive sports or experiencing anything like team spirit. Not all human experiences are universal.

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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jacob wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 12:51 pm
Well, this is where I don't "get it". I often have this discussion with DW when out in nature (lower case n). She gets something out of it. I mostly get mosquito bites and a moderate concern about allergic reactions. In particular, I wonder whether the ecological wiring (humans are part of NATURE, all capitals) Plotkin talks about is innate or inherent?
Like @theanimal suggested, spending extended time in nature will allow you to decompress from normal habitual thought patterns from living in an urban setting. I found it interesting that Plotkin et al. find that those that spent a lot of time outdoors as children are much more likely to have deeper experiences on the trips that he has guided. I cannot find the quote, but will update when I find it. I am curious if your DW did have more of those experiences as a child? Wild Mind (nearly done reading) has many techniques to help identify where certain aspects of his model might be out of balance in an individual along with exercises to learn more. Biological nature is going to be here in some form whether we are or not around to observe it. It would be a shame if one of the only species capable of reflection and contemplation were to go away because it cannot collectively reflect and contemplate. We have to figure this out!

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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mountainFrugal wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:32 pm
I found it interesting that Plotkin et al. find that those that spent a lot of time outdoors as children are much more likely to have deeper experiences on the trips that he has guided. I cannot find the quote, but will update when I find it. I am curious if your DW did have more of those experiences as a child?
I remember Plotkin saying that in the book. It's quite likely that almost everybody has had more sustained nature experiences when they were children than me. I was super-allergic to nature---luckily I've grown out of most of it---and deciding against drugs I spent most of my childhood indoors.

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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To ask in another way...Did all of your work modeling and understanding neutron stars (and other physics) ever leave you with a sense of deep wonder? Or some other hard to put the finger on non-rational emotional state?

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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mountainFrugal wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:34 pm
To ask in another way...Did all of your work modeling and understanding neutron stars (and other physics) ever leave you with a sense of deep wonder? Or some other hard to put the finger on non-rational emotional state?
Yes. That's why I'd like to see a "non-nature" version or just an abstract/generalized version.

This experience is not uncommon amongst mathematicians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_beauty I'd say elegance is something else than beauty. Elegance is just "nice looking equations". Beauty is profound. With physics, there's the added connection to the exterior. E.g. once you truly understand (kennen, not wissen) general relativity and no longer just see it as a problem of pushing equations around, it's like being part of spacetime. Maybe better explained as "seeing the matrix" as opposed to just experiencing a table, a chair, the air, a piece of paper with an elegant G=8pi*T on it.

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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jacob wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:50 pm
That's why I'd like to see a "non-nature" version or just an abstract/generalized version.
As far as I can tell the exercises/ideas outlined by Plotkin *could* be generalized. They are systematized around a nature based idea of the world, but exploring inner depths of your psyche in these ways does need to be nature focused. In fact most of them are not. It only comes across that way through his examples.

As a first approximation (skeletons are easier than details :)):
Figure out the different aspects of yourself including the ones that are underdeveloped using some map based system.
FIgure out how to best use the mature developed parts of yourself to balance, encourage, and grow the underdeveloped parts. This is even if only to say... well I now understand those underdeveloped parts and they are not for me most of the time, but can be drawn on in certain circumstances.
Design some sort of exercises/ceremonies/expressions that deeply activate all aspects of yourself including previously underdeveloped parts (find mytho-poetic identity...identification with something deep and much larger... only fully accessible using all aspects of self).
Figure out how to translate this "all aspects of self" in some sort of way to actively engage with the world.
Engage!
Help others recognize their gifts and stages.

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

Post by jacob »

mountainFrugal wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:51 pm
As a first approximation (skeletons are easier than details :)):
Figure out the different aspects of yourself including the ones that are underdeveloped using some map based system.
FIgure out how to best use the mature developed parts of yourself to balance, encourage, and grow the underdeveloped parts. This is even if only to say... well I now understand those underdeveloped parts and they are not for me most of the time, but can be drawn on in certain circumstances.
Design some sort of exercises/ceremonies/expressions that deeply activate all aspects of yourself including previously underdeveloped parts (find mytho-poetic identity...identification with something deep and much larger... only fully accessible using all aspects of self).
Figure out how to translate this "all aspects of self" in some sort of way to actively engage with the world.
Engage!
Help others recognize their gifts and stages.
I could get onboard with this program and this is in indeed how I largely see how these [developments] largely go.

What caused my "wait what?"-objection was whether those 'previously undeveloped parts' were required to lead to a mystical connection with nature (seeing trees or mountains) or maybe Nature (neutron stars or garden spider mandibles). Also whether "exercises/ceremonies/expressions" were absolute one-size-fits all that only required the right approach ... or whether everybody had to explore and discover what works for them personally.

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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jacob wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:46 pm
... 'previously undeveloped parts' were required to lead to a mystical connection with nature (seeing trees or mountains) or maybe Nature (neutron stars or garden spider mandibles).

Also whether "exercises/ceremonies/expressions" were absolute one-size-fits all that only required the right approach ... or whether everybody had to explore and discover what works for them personally.
It is my understanding that these underdeveloped aspects are not required, but may limit your depth of connection and how you might translate that into engaging with the world. Plotkin thinks we all have underdeveloped parts (himself included). As an example in this framework, chemical addictions that keep you close to civilization for your next fix rather than spending more time away for uninterrupted reflection. This addiction will then likely hinder your ability to act out your mytho-poetic identity once it is found.

There are so many methods/ideas/exercises/ceremonies that he explores in his books that there is no one size fits all solution. He constantly brings it back to nature based ideas that he has experience with successfully guiding people, but these are not a requirement. They do have the advantage of some folks finding them useful in their own development though. So it would not be a complete shot in the dark for anyone to start with these.
SELF-DESIGNED CEREMONY I wish I could direct the reader to a good book on a soulcraft-resonant approach to self-designed ceremony, but I do not know one. I have written a longer article on the topic, entitled “Ritual and Ceremony: Completing the Dialogue with the Unconscious,” which appears in Circles on the Mountain, 1991.

Plotkin, Bill. Soulcraft: Crossing into the Mysteries of Nature and Psyche (p. 344)

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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mountainFrugal wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:28 pm
It is my understanding that these underdeveloped aspects are not required, but may limit your depth of connection and how you might translate that into engaging with the world. Plotkin thinks we all have underdeveloped parts (himself included). As an example in this framework, chemical addictions that keep you close to civilization for your next fix rather than spending more time away for uninterrupted reflection. This addiction will then likely hinder your ability to act out your mytho-poetic identity once it is found.
OTOH, chemical addictions or acid trips might be either part of some stage or the way to get to the next stage, After all psychotropics are part of NATURE. I'm not aiming for some kind of gotcha here but rather considering how such inclusions may be part of involution. That is, ... we go from limbic to neocortal systems .. then neocortal systems invent cybernetic/technological additions .. and that creates the next level for lack of better words. As opposed to "everything must proceed au naturel" which in turn may be limited because it denies potential aspects.
mountainFrugal wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:28 pm
There are so many methods/ideas/exercises/ceremonies that he explores in his books that there is no one size fits all solution. He constantly brings it back to nature based ideas that he has experience with successfully guiding people, but these are not a requirement. They do have the advantage of some folks finding them useful in their own development though. So it would not be a complete shot in the dark for anyone to start with these.
Fair enough.

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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I know you are not trying to do a gotcha... some further ideas:
...Egocentrism leads to the suppression of individual depth and passion, which in turn leads to a grief too horrible to bear. Many attempt to numb that grief through the use of habit-forming substances like alcohol and other drugs.

Are psychotropic plants necessary for soul encounter? Definitely not. There are many other, equally effective pathways to soul, as I hope this book conveys. The legal and widespread readoption of psychotropic substances as soulcraft aids will have to wait for changes in our society's attitudes (which may take a long time) and the emergence of a new generation of soulcraft practitioners who understand the subtleties and ceremonies of the spiritual use of these substances. (This has already begun in a small way, but you won't find these practitioners in the Yellow Pages.)

The value of plant allies for soulcraft is considerable. We need to support those explorers and guides who are responsibly developing this knowledge and skill. And we need to support those sociopolitical activists who are speaking up and making clear the difference between soul-numbing drug addiction and the soul-animating use of hallucinogenic substances.

Plotkin, Bill. Soulcraft: Crossing into the Mysteries of Nature and Psyche (p. 202).
(keep in mind this book is from early 2000s so these attitudes are already changing)

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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For me, a spiritual exercise is akin to adapting to or accepting the perturbations of consciousness that arise from letting existence fold upon itself (allowing subtleties to merge with the gross picture of what is real). Meaning that so long as the objects of consciousness can relate, new relationships can emerge effortlessly in a ripe state of consciousness(*). In the wilderness, perhaps objects of a more wild-like quality will arise and direct the combinatoric explosiveness of relation formation, though for me, the same experience is isomorphic to what is experienced in a city, on twitter, or on my toilet some mornings. More and more, setting has a negligible effect upon the ease by which novel connections are made between a finite set of things that hints upon a relentless, unlimited creativity that pervades all activity.

(*) Hence, mystical experiences seem to be more state-like than stage-like though later stages tend to have them more frequently (albeit may not refer to such as such).

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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daylen wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:30 pm
For me, a spiritual exercise is akin to adapting to or accepting the perturbations of consciousness that arise from letting existence fold upon itself (allowing subtleties to merge with the gross picture of what is real).

...More and more, setting has a negligible effect upon the ease by which novel connections are made between a finite set of things that hints upon a relentless, unlimited creativity that pervades all activity.
This is a really interesting description of "mysticism". I am wondering now if the wilderness connections that are made through Plotkin's suggested exercises are helped by the fact that most of us in Western society do not interact with nature on a regular basis. Changing the setting (along with fasting or other things) for the purposes of development may be a way to accelerate people out of habitual patterns. I think I agree that most of these things help induce states rather than stages. If you are further along and level up all of these states just become your everyday existence at another stage. "Practiced states become permanent traits" as you level up.

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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Wilber defines spiritual intelligence as something like the capacity to tune into ultimate importance. So, perhaps a spiritual exercise more generally can be thought of as a contemplation or dialog about what is ultimately important [to you or us or world or all]. With my answer above perhaps reflecting how creativity is centered within my avatar currently.

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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daylen wrote:
Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:11 pm
... a spiritual exercise more generally can be thought of as a contemplation or dialog about what is ultimately important [to you or us or world or all].
This is a nice summary. I did some more (re)reading/listening to Wilber this weekend. I often associate his work with more "ascending" practices, but he does talk a lot about "descending" practices (more in-line with Plotkin) and how these are ultimately two sides of the same coin if you are integrally moving up. As your states become traits and you move up, you transcend and include all the lower levels. They are all part of a non-dual experience as it were.

From your boundless creativity a few experiential questions:
Do you keep that awareness at all times...even during deep sleep?
Do you cycle in and out of it depending on situation/environment?
Is it more "intense" (for lack of a better word) during some activities than others?
Before getting there, were there glimpses of it in shorter time periods?

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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That's an interesting contrast between Wilber and Plotkin, perhaps I should take a closer look into the latter.

This is a very intricate set of questions to answer. I feel I cannot yet adequately mesh my experience with the traditions and recent additions to integrating growing up, waking up, and cleaning up as a collective. Though, here is how I might phrase answers currently.

One approach is to think of consciousness as being simultaneously a spotlight and a hologram. From the spotlight mode, an I and/or It can arise and pass. As the holographic mode intensifies relative to the spotlight mode a few things start to happen: 1) I's become WE's. 2) It's become ITS. 3) Spotlight(s) take on the form of a witness or witnesses (from multiple vantage points) of the transitions 1 and 2.

Going further, there are witnesses of these witnesses that can spawn and fade away. As these escalations have gone on over several years, they have tended to allow deeper states of the holographic mode in which I's and It's are more diffusely spread across space while time becomes harder to track(*). Creativity seems to be maximized when somewhere between 5 and 15 spotlights are reserved for working memory of I's or It's while holographic consciousness interlinks such objects across time without running through time. Intensity tends to correlate with feeling/being lost in time.

(*) With the caveat that one witness can be reserved as time-keeper through background IT/I fixation.

The boundless creativity is not quite boundless as closer to the pure holographic mode nothing can be produced and thus no creation is occurring in that sense. In another sense, I have had quite profound [to me] experiences where clearly creation/form/emptiness/etc have always been and are all that can be(+). This direct realization has struck me at various points in my life and these can be related to as holes in memory surrounded by [usually] intense memories. In childhood, there are clearly large swaths of no memory, but I think this has to do more with deep sleep nullifying the clouded vision over the emptiness rather than being able to see clearly through the mud, so to speak, as seems to be the case now. In the last couple years, the spotlight and holographic processes have gradually been identified, gestated, and owned, and thus now the ever present now need not associate with such processes to happen. More and more it just happens, and the arising and passing of new things are occurring concurrently while the spread of old/new arising's/passing's can be greater (thus increasing emptiness in another sense while hinting upon a deeper nonduality). There are no strong correlates to particular activities as far as I can tell.

I do not often have expirences of being present during deep sleep but it does happen from time to time, and I am convinced it is possible to always be there during waking, dreaming, and sleeping as at all times something is going on. I have lucid dreamed from time to time, but I chose not to investigate this deeper (i.e. make it habitual) as perhaps it takes some of the magic away (though maybe I'll reconsider this in the future).

While writing this it has occurred to me that I can choose to treat the creation of the split creation/determination as yet a deeper level to "non-duality" to settle into if I want. It's turttles all the way down for expressing non-duality, though I would say quite confidently that there is in some sense an awakening to eternity as otherwise I would just be repressing these very real [to me] experiences into my shadow and not confronting them (i.e. cleaning up). I am a bit wary of "teaching" waking up as I am still in the mist of integrating growing up, waking up, and cleaning up personally. So, I encourage anyone interested to look into eastern traditions which have been around for thousands of years but do not expect waking up to put food on the table. For that, and for putting food on everyone's table, be sure to not neglect growing up and cleaning up.

(+) Here the point can be made that any label assigned implies a split that cannot be reconciled with direct experience of this event or rather eternal "now-ness", "forever-ness", and/or "always-was-ness".

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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daylen wrote:
Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:11 pm
... Creativity seems to be maximized when somewhere between 5 and 15 spotlights are reserved for working memory of I's or It's while holographic consciousness interlinks such objects across time without running through time. Intensity tends to correlate with feeling/being lost in time.

...There are no strong correlates to particular activities as far as I can tell.

....I do not often have expirences of being present during deep sleep but it does happen from time to time, and I am convinced it is possible to always be there during waking, dreaming, and sleeping as at all times something is going on. I have lucid dreamed from time to time, but I chose not to investigate this deeper (i.e. make it habitual) as perhaps it takes some of the magic away (though maybe I'll reconsider this in the future).

....So, I encourage anyone interested to look into eastern traditions which have been around for thousands of years but do not expect waking up to put food on the table. For that, and for putting food on everyone's table, be sure to not neglect growing up and cleaning up.
Were these individual spotlights part of your conscious experience before working on this?

Interesting.

I have heard Wilber describe being present for waking dreaming and deep sleep. He likens the ability to lucid dream with that of "waking up" in normal waking consciousness. So instead of "O hey I am dreaming" it is "O hey I am awake".

I think this is one of the main points that Plotkin is making about finding your mytho-poetic identity that eventually will put food on the table. Spiritual/Soul dance vs. survival dance. His book Wild Mind has many examples of methods to help growing up and cleaning up. In fact, one of his caricatures is the "bliss head", who neglects all of these things to reach for "enlightenment" at all costs, while completely ignoring the other quandrants (my phrasing to show the overlap between Wilber and Plotkin).

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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Yeah, so spotlights are like subject-object splits. Within first person, there is one spotlight that perceives objects and tends to identify with those objects (as a way to integrate a differentiated "reality" into a single observer). Though, without an additional spotlight spawning that can "witness" the other spotlight, the subject is not properly(*) integrated and thus cannot become an object of the next subject. Second person can arise as dual spotlights (an object becomes a subject that can peer into the prior subject). Third person involving an additional vantage point or subject-object split with minimal or non-detectable subjectivity. Fourth person introducing a more nuanced subjectivity with the third spotlight from yet another vantage point.. and so forth and so on.

It would seem that upon looking at evidence of growing up and waking up across many humans, they are independent in that one can be "higher" than the other according to the tests devised thus far. Yet, upon elaboration/explanation of either, conflation is bound to occur as far as I can tell as both are still constrained by language. Same for type theory and cleaning up in relation to either, I strongly suspect.

(*) Or was it already always just as it should be?

I agree. I think perhaps a quick ascent without a deep descent can leave one aware of the spirit of evolution without an unshakable "soul". I feel quite strongly that this is something I have been dealing with, as awakening to the dream of maya doesn't necessary set your avatar on a meaningful or steady path right away and can even depress it if the inner and outer fits are misaligned due to shadow elements. Perhaps a deep descent into the subtleties of the dream and its capacity to fragment or otherwise harmonize emotions is key to finding your own "soul" as a relative entity that is simultaneously an expression of absolute experience. It's like asking yourself, if this is indeed a dream and can be altered then why not direct it towards the "good" stuff like love, creativity, joy, etc? And upon embracing the descent and ascent, is this really a dream? Or is that just another spotlight view that can merge into itself? And so forth and so on.

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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Plotkin focuses and specializes in solo wilderness experiences as a way for deep personal growth and connection with nature (along with many other techniques). Here is an academic paper reviewing the literature on solitude and wilderness experiences on personal growth:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 ... 47067/full

The abstract:
Silence is now acknowledged by science as a significant construct of healthy human development and well-being, linked to humans’ neurobiology, psychology, physiology, and spirituality. This paper focuses on a particular form of silence experienced through the solo experience in the wilderness. The solo experience, involving varying periods of time spent in solitude and silence in the wilderness is a common method of intervention implemented among therapeutic and educational nature-based approaches. Numerous studies and personal accounts in the field underscore the solo experience as one of the most significant nature based interventions linked to various beneficial outcomes. These studies emphasize the significance of the wilderness, far from daily demands, and devoid of technological stimuli allowing the silence, time and space for self-reflection and contemplation on the sacredness and meaning of life. Although new to modern culture, solitude in nature is an ancient form of initiation used ceremonially by indigenous cultures worldwide. These practices challenge the individual who alone in the wilderness battles fear and loneliness only to discover inner strengths and true identity. The solo experience, viewed as enacting these ancient rituals in modern form may serve as an antidote to the loneliness, stress, and depression on the rise in the current era, which have been linked to our overly stimulated urban environments and lifestyles. This paper sheds light on how the wilderness solo is experienced and understood, specifically as contributing to therapeutic outcome and personal growth. The empirical and theoretical literature is reviewed pointing to the significance of solitude and silence as basic components of the wilderness solo. These are linked to profound personal outcomes including the discovery of new and expansive ways of knowing the self and the world, specifically as interconnected in the larger web of life, enhancing a sense of personal belonging and purpose.

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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I am working on a longer update to this thread because a lot has happened in understanding... but in the mean time... please add discussion here @outoftheblue... :).
OutOfTheBlue wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:51 pm
Having finished Nature and the Human Soul last week (now plunging in his three other books, Soulcraft, Wild Mind and last year's The Journey of Soul Initiation) and coming from a NiFe perspective (with a somewhat balanced, maybe 60% F 40% T ratio), this framework makes a lot of sense and fits in nicely within the ERE curriculum and "conspiracy" (as you put it in the thread on Daniel Quinn's Ishmael).

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Re: Bill Plotkin - Discussion Thread

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Plotkin Update. Having read all of his books now, I might recommend Wildmind to start with if you are looking for practical exercises. All the books overlap a lot and go into detail of different aspects. Through all of this personal work that gradually translates to community work throughout a human lifetime, we hope to move more humans through this (or analogous developmental schemes; see refs below).

A small group of us are exploring Plotkin and actually doing the exercises out in nature. It is one thing to read these books, but an entirely different thing to actually do the exercises. It is recommended that you go out and do these exercises at different times of day, seasons, etc. The point is to develop relationships with aspects of yourself that influence or direct your behavior in the physical world or in the mental world. A tool that is used frequently is exploring archetypes and how they manifest in your internal (thoughts, emotions) and external world (leading to observable behaviors). The idea being that for the common thought, emotion, and behavior patterns you can assign those to an archetype/character. This imagination exercise helps one overtime to realize when these patterns are occurring. This is helpful for both positive and negative behaviors/thoughts. These are all parts of yourself and they make up your 3D-ego (good/bad/positive/negative). With practice, you can watch these different archetypes interact with the world, situations, thought patterns etc. One will also realize that they can interact with each other especially when there might be competing interests. In the same way that mindfulness meditation is a way to watch your thoughts, these exercises are ways to watch archetypes interact. What is interesting is that overtime one develops an "outside view" of the these archetypes/characters and become easier to identify. It becomes easier to take a third person perspective on these archetypes/characters. In the same way that you might be able to easily observe the blind spots of a friend because you have an outside view. Obviously this is not a silver bullet for everything, but can be very helpful.

Some detailed exercises in Wildmind:
http://www.wildmindbook.com/wp-content/ ... ealing.doc

As one goes through these exercises they are working on the positive facets of the self and the "negative" aspects of the self (framed as sub-personalities). However, it is important to keep in mind that all of these are part of your psyche and you can turn the negative aspects into strengths with a lot of work. The idea being that one can leverage already developed strengths to work on underdeveloped parts. See @AxelHeyst's journal for examples of sub-personality work followed by acceptance, integration, and strength:
viewtopic.php?p=257357#p257357

As an example, I have been continuing to go to a remote place on training runs and spend time there working on the exercises to identify different characters/archetypes associated with thought patterns/behaviors. One of the understated brilliant aspects to Plotkin's work is that he recognizes that our modern western culture is very heavily North/East leaning so nearly ALL of the exercises work out the South (feeling) and West (imagining) mental muscles. The following are some notes from one of the exercises in the wildmindbook website link above.

North Facet- Thinking - Owl
North Sub - Dr. North Sub

East - Sensing - Coyote
East Sub - Addict (travel/experience)
East Sub - Bliss head

South Facet- Feeling - Wildman
South Sub - Punk Rocker

West - Imagining - Rubber Boa/Slender Raven
West Sub - shadow elements --- not likely to be able to put characters to them

I modified a sketch note of these characters and some ways they interacted when doing these visualizations in the physical world (move around cardinal directions) and back in my office. As an example, Dr. North Sub represses the feeling and admiration for nature in the South' s wildman. The Addict (less of a problem now) focuses always on the new travel destination, climb, ticklist, etc. I include this sketchnote to visualize what I am talking about, but you have to do the hard work yourself. It is heavily modified to decrease complexity. I did not edit it for spelling/word choice mistakes (dyslexic).
Image

References and other ideas:
Translating between models of human behavior/development
Stack Theory 101 - viewtopic.php?t=12360
Stack Theory 102 - viewtopic.php?t=12373

@AnalyticEngine Journal Posts that integrate many of these ideas and translate between them: viewtopic.php?p=256739#p256739

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