Monetizing interest in extreme personal finance

[Sclass]

I’m not sure if that is a good or bad thing. I guess it’s good advice from a business point of view.

The personal trainers I’ve met had interesting relationships with their clients. It’s a people business. What I’ve seen being provided to my neighbor is a lot more than a steady workout routine and motivation. Her trainer actually is her psychologist in disguise as a personal trainer. I get to listen to their sessions while I nap on my deck.

Same with a high school buddy of mine who does this in West LA. Home visits. He’s adored according to online ratings. He’s really monetized his natural magnetic charm.

There is an entire class of businesses that caters to the poor. Cheap wireless shops, fast food, self serve junkyards, pawn, certain swap meets or check cashing to name a few. It is probably a skill maintaining a business relationship with poor people. I used to do business with a pawnshop owner and he’d transform when a low life client would walk in for a loan. It was clear he had a routine for them and a routine for me.

[Laura Ingalls]

@sclass

I agree about trainer’s too. You have to look the part too. People might accidentally hire a broke accountant. No one is going to accidentally hire an obese trainer.

It is expensive being poor. The illogical things people do rob Peter to pay Paul are crazy. Buy old cars at 24% interest. Buy an itty bitty bottle of laundry detergent at the dollar store instead of buying $10 of supplies to make your detergent (for years) or 2-4 big bottles when Walgreens has a rocking deal to last you to the next rocking deals (my preferred method).

In Matthew Desmond’s Evicted book, poor people where charged (though didn’t always pay) about the same amount in rent per month to live is slumlord’s housing than middle class folks paid for nicer places in safer neighborhoods (size of unit was usually pretty comparable.) Passing a credit check and having a background check free of evictions and bad checks is pretty handy.

[chenda]

Meh...ramblings

[Qazwer]

There is probably a market in people who are lost and overworked but still are making money. Show them there is another way. It would be short term and would have to find the correct group. But after working 100 plus hours that week - some people might be for a way out. By the time someone gets to specific strategies, they probably would not spend on it - so no re-occurring income. So would need a constant source of new referrals …

[WFJ]

Any ideas?
How to find client base?

I don't mind charging 20-30 USD/45 min globally for personal coaching.
In reality, I would focus on more local clientele.

It might be prudent to investigate the regulatory minefield you would be entering. One reason financial industry has to charge so much is the regulatory burden placed on every level of the industry. FINRA would be the first place to start, but my gut says giving out any financial advice is full of regulatory landmines. Small fish usually don't attract much attention, but small fish are also easy targets if anyone ever lodges a complaint.

As mentioned above, making money from individuals with lower asset base is not usually fruitful. Some fields are OK, like selling insurance. It might be preferrable to have 1,000 lower income clients compared to 10 HNW as losing one HNW is crippling, while losing ten low-income clients is not noticed, much less competition for lower net worth clients.

My suggestion would be to make money in an easy mindless job, then do free seminars at a local YMCA/junior college/high school, resulting in higher earnings and also more contact with those who need financial help.

[candide]

I was looking through old threads [1] and I came across this:

Efforts at popularizing were abandoned in 2011. I had two reasons for that.

Dumbing down the message led to mainstreamers projecting the wrong message (lentil soup, $7000, sacrifice, ...) exactly as illustrated by the OP link. Recall, it was an entirely different and much more prejudicial world than it is now. Only way to "win" that one would be to make the presentation instagram friendly and hide all the challenging work. But fooling people into believing that they understand something when they don't isn't winning.

Turning it into a quick&easy scheme would have been immoral. Even if it could have made me rich it would not have changed the world. There were and are plenty of operators who sold "buy my $479 course and you can have the same success as me after one single weekend". It would be immoral because it is damaging to those individuals who get excited and fall for it. That's even worse.

I think that's still true.

ETA: the rest of the post syncs with other advice in this thread: teach to lower Wheaton Levels.

[1] The search term was "Smil" as I was testing out how familiar the crowd was with him before posting from a review of his latest book. Looks like the regulars who are interested in the ecology are familiar, so I'll just drop down the link and move on.

https://www.treehugger.com/how-the-worl ... ew-5323236

. . . Eh, I'll put in one key quote:

He then asks if we can go back. Can we eat organic food, relying on organic wastes? Nope, there isn't enough poop in the world. He wrote: "Global crop cultivation supported solely by the laborious recycling of organic wastes and by more common rotations is conceivable for a global population of 3 billion people consuming largely plant-based diets, but not for nearly 8 billion people on mixed diets."

[Stahlmann]

...
The money is in the clientele with more money than time. Doctors, lawyers, ... The people who pay $400 for a one day conference on how to open a broker account. Or $2700 for a weeklong retreat with FIRE people. See JLCollins' https://www.fichautauqua.com/ MMM's followers are close enough in that regard.
...
Keep in mind, people who make $200,000 per household think that living like a normal household on $60,000 is pretty extreme. They wouldn't blink dropping that amount of money on a trip.

First part - is it real life?

How to get to them?

I like helping people, but sometimes (for example in my past) my personal ego got overhelmed if I somebody told me that nice dinner "is just half of my our work".I also dont drink alcohol or do even soft drugs (take care of your bran chemistry guys...), I'm rather not people person. However, I have a lot of "intellectual empathy" (thining and trying to solve intelectually their problems etc.). I simply believe saying "things will be good" will change anything.

I think a lot of money is possibly to be make in selling credits or financial products. I mean positions which don't require CFA or any high credentials. Here, I wouldn't like to be seller of "the system".

I mean there's nothing with education and getting new certs, but... on personal level I still don't get why as humanity we focus on petty things like choosing which company with highest possible return for the next quater.

Yea, I can go to Germany and be "deine kleiner Pole fur dein Oma" and hoping for some crazy case with inheritance or giting gud in lentil baby/buddy concept.

[loutfard]

Start an online talk show where you make every episode a case study of an interesting person with either ERE ambition or lifestyle. Monetise the video content using platform built-in advertisements.

This wouldn't be my kind of thing to make, but I could imagine watching it. I suspect that with sustained effort it might be possible to earn an ERE living off.

[Stahlmann]

I thinking and playing a bit with idea of blog (which so called AI) which would cater everybody interested in personal finance, but trying to pull off high earners to take my paid consultations rated 45 EUR/USD / 45 minutes (done online from my glorious basement).

I'm thinking what they type into to google with their mindset and lifstyle. "Earn a lot, but stressed", "how to heal burnout as high earner", "high earning, no savings", "how to prepare for sabbatical", "downshifting for a year"... Hmm. Any ideas welcomed.

Btw, how do they verbalise "frugality" (I assumie it attacks their ego/pride)? Maybe "resourcefullnes"? "Moneysmart-ness? I mean I'm looking catchy phraeses to register domains. I don't expect here answers, we can both start blogs and promote each others

[Tyler9000]

I guess one could argue I qualify as someone who has found a decent niche adjacent to your target market. My audience tends to be already successful savers who want to learn how to become equally successful DIY investors. So it self-selects to a natural demo that most companies would covet.

Because of that corporate interest, the trick is properly attracting that audience among all of the other competition. There are thousands of paid financial advisers targeting the same people and casual investing blogs are a dime a dozen. Then there's the issue of offering something they'll pay for and that won't get you into legal trouble. Long story short, unless you have the proper certifications be very careful before accepting money for telling someone how to manage their finances.

My own moat involves creating unique visualization tools, providing data to underserved markets (basically anyone who invests in something other than the S&P500 and intermediate bonds or who lives outside of the US), and explaining sophisticated concepts in interesting ways. Also, specifically targeting DIY investors helps separate me from every run-of-the-mill financial adviser looking to recruit people to hand over control.

I manage to sell a few products and have a loyal group of members that I'm really thankful for. Is it hugely profitable? Not at all. But it works for me.

Sometimes the best niche is the one that you care about regardless of the margin. After all, anyone looking to get into the same space will now have to compete with the loose cannon with poor business sense who is giving all of the same information away for free. Good luck!

[Tyler9000]

When they started organizing these FI pilgrimages for thousands of dollars it was the exact time that I stopped reading MMM. I look at it once or twice a year now, but it has become too Hollywood for me

Then I imagine you probably missed his most recent post about buying a brand new $52k Tesla SUV. He's come a long way from riding his bike to the grocery store or (if you must drive) promoting the benefits of a used Honda Fit. I've always enjoyed MMM, but there's no doubt that the message has changed. One could argue he's officially jumped the shark.

Relating to this thread, I've got to think that his core frugal audience is feeling pretty disillusioned right now. So perhaps there's a good opportunity for fresh new voices to step up.

[chenda]

I've always enjoyed MMM, but there's no doubt that the message has changed. One could argue he's officially jumped the shark.

MMM always owned a car, I don't think he has abandoned biking or sustainability. His penultimate post is about building a low car use city.

[Tyler9000]

Sure. And it replaced his old van. I'm just sayin' that luxury SUVs are a conspicuous new turn for a guy who made his name in frugality.

[mathiverse]

MMM recently wrote an article that could be summarized as "If you can afford it, you should stop being so frugal, stop worrying about your purchases, and live a little." His definition of afford is different than the mainstream (his examples were people who were FI many times over), but still. He previously wrote an article about how comfort is for the weak. Now he writes about how if you can afford it, why suffer? And used that rationale to justify luxuries like paying extra for airline tickets with more leg room (*), renting a Tesla, and paying for airport parking, etc. His message has changed and now that he has a ton of money he's decided it's okay if he spends it. More power to him, but that's not exactly frugal, environmentally friendly, Mustachian, or whatever you want to call what his message used to be.

(*) He previously wrote an article bragging about *not* getting the extra leg room because it's just a few hours.

EDIT: Yes. He's free to change how he pleases. He doesn't owe his audience anything.

[Tyler9000]

Maybe @Stahlmann can become a FIRE spending coach. "For $100/month I'll help you wisely get the most retirement luxury for the dollar."

[Stahlmann]

Maybe @Stahlmann can become a FIRE spending coach. "For $100/month I'll help you wisely get the most retirement luxury for the dollar."

Jokes aside, this would be nice

[jacob]

As the legendary @Dragline once put it to me:

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.

I don't think active "hero's journey"-heroes owe random anonymous passive lurkers a consistent form of free inspiration for years and decades. Perhaps I'm projecting a bit or a lot here. But come on ... I think sometimes habitual lurkers and complainypants forget how their internet idols have their own lives and don't just exist for the passive entertainment or abuse of the general public.

[theanimal]

I don't know. If I stumbled across MMM now and read the first posts about "badassity" and saving the world from climate change via living simply, going without and pedal power, I'd be very disillusioned upon coming to the recent posts about upgrading to first class tickets, buying a Tesla, and buying all kinds of fancy meals, just because you can afford it. There's something very disingenuous about selling one way of living and making $500k/yr from it then doing near the opposite of that lifestyle. The recent posts come off as not so thinly veiled consumerism.

As a counter example, ERE HQ is still spending $7k/person and eating lentils . IIRC you (Jacob) mentioned to me that you wouldn't pursue a pilot's license because you couldn't justify just flying around for fun. Despite the fact that you have a great interest in flying and the ability to pay for it many, many times over. I respect the hell out of that and I think many others do as well. When you say that you value certain things, you actually mean it.

ETA: I don't think anyone owes inspiration for others and that everyone should be consistent with what they say for their entire life. But if you are going to choose to share information publicly and try to justify it through the lens of your blog, I don't think you are immune from criticism. Especially if you have used your platform to criticize the same exact behavior in others previously.

[Tyler9000]

To be clear, I have no issue with MMM growing and changing over time. I know I have! He has every right to live in whatever way that makes him happy, and that evolving definition is one of the more interesting things in life. Same thing when Jacob got a trading job even after becoming well-known for ERE. Some people pointed and said "AHA!", but he didn't really change. He just used his hard-earned freedom to try something new. Forced consistency is lame.

Where MMM is in a bit of a gray area right now is the way the old MMM would proudly deliver facepunches to the new one while explaining the dangers of hedonic adaptation. So I understand if his long-term fans are feeling a bit confused. At some point it's not the same blog anymore, and I expect his audience to turn over into something new while the old audience feels left behind. As one datapoint, there is currently a thread on the MMM forum debating the merits of starting a new classic/frugal subforum because the rest of the group (including MMM himself) is trending towards fatFIRE. So clearly the community is at a crossroads.

So yes, leaders are only human and we shouldn't get upset when they change. But the same leaders also shouldn't be surprised when their audience decides that they no longer relate. It'll be interesting to see what happens with MMM over the next few years.

[xmj]

Consider the blog and MMM's recent evolution a documentation of the acculturation and eventual assimilation to the upper-middle class happening over a period of 18 years, 2005 being the date he retired from his first career.

Suppose for a second that you've read The Shockingly Simple Math post right when it came out. You finish education in 2012 and start investing.

After that past decade you've made a bundle on the market -- you're probably way up despite 2018, 2020 and 2022, the "bad" years. You've had a few years where your annual savings exceed 70%. Maybe more; what *did* you spend money on during the various lockdowns?

Your career has gone well, you might have had some setbacks but nothing devastating.

And you find yourself absolutely agreeing with MMM's evolution, because essentially the same thing has happened to you.

So where's the problem?