The Education of Axel Heyst

Where are you and where are you going?
AxelHeyst
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:26 am
I think there's an important life satisfaction aspect to engaging in skilled work, especially skilled work that involves other people. In my experience, doing projects at home is interesting, but doing projects with other people is important to feeling connected.

Unfortunately, most of "skilled work with other people" involves paid employment, so I think finding alternative structures to that is very important. The workaways sound like an interesting alternative.
Yes to all of this. I see workaway as a way to combine deploying skills on cool projects while also meeting my desire to travel, and I see it as sort of training wheels for the grander vision of what I have in my head when I say The Wandering Engineer. Honestly, I see the path leading back to remuneration ultimately because that's just how deploying rare and valuable skills tends to work... But by the time I get back there the idea is that the remuneration is decentralized in my system to the point of being incidental, and because I'm doing fringe of society stuff the compensation is likely to take a number of forms, from cash to stock to fresh veggies and a place to crash for life to my pick of the salvage yard as much as I can haul to...

AxelHeyst
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

Slevin wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:03 pm
So I think your “just get more money first” is correct to solve for the inherent weakness of semiERE. The question then is just due to tendencies of market accumulation (exponential growth), since the second half is much much easier than the first, so why not just finish the path to ERE/ FI? Obviously if you hate your job, that would be a reason not to. And if you don’t want to contribute more to bad systems, that is probably another.
Well, I feel like most people who go semiERE do it after accumulating a bit of an FU stash? So I'm not sure that's an inherent weakness of semiERE, because no one( ??) recommends beginning low multiples of CoL income when NW is also very low (below 5x, say). I might be wrong about that, but I feel like good semiERE is get up to 15x+ and then drop income to low xCoL.

But your point about why not hammer out the second half of FIRE is a solid one. Honestly, I think if someone is not in a dire circumstance with burnout and is doing ~85% SR, then sticking it out another 2-3 years is a no brainer. Just crank it out and be done with it, yes absolutely.

My situation was that I was dealing with burnout, existential issues, and then my work situation imploded slowly around me over a year due to covid and other stuff. So, finding myself unemployed, revolted by the idea of a similar j*b, and at about 15-20x with 5x liquid, I just went.... Yeah, this is fine, let's see how I can make this work.

The approach/ structure I'm trying to build around skill acquisition is ERE/semiERE agnostic I think. No reason you can't get serious about skill acquisition if you're FI/RE, although not having FI stash might light a fire under your ass. But if you're semiERE, being serious about Reniassance skill acquisition is a more critical path element of the system. It feels more... Optional, or touristic, for people who are FI/RE first.

The end result is runaway NW and robust Renaissance skills either way. The question is just which path is more appropriate for you? Financial security first, then skill up? Or skill up and let the $ take care of itself over a longer period of time? Which asset do you want to compound over a longer period of time - skills or fiscal wealth? It's not either or, it's a spectrum, a slider, and it has a lot to do with temperament, life circumstances, etc.

prudentelo
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by prudentelo »

How much incidental $ has been earned? On monthly basis? Is it trending up over time?

At some point one needs to actually cash the checks.

AxelHeyst
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

Incidental generation of income is on hold (wait, how can something incidental be on hold?) while I'm traveling and working for non$ yields. Or rather: I anticipated not generating any incidental $ while traveling and accepted it as an opportunity cost of my travels. Ask me again in two years or so when I'll have meaningful data over a meaningful period of time while in an environment conducive to incidental income generation.

I mean, I basically haven't started this yet. I've just been thinking and talking about it. Month one is going to be something like April 2023. I only a month ago sacked up and pulled out of the startup I was involved with that was going to be my primary source of (not incidental) Income.

At some point one does indeed need to start cashing the checks. That point is not now. Now is much too soon.

AxelHeyst
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

In The Book, Jacob talks about walking by the car lot and pointing out that the could buy some number of the cars (all of them?) cash on the spot. That's one way of framing winning with money (via the application of strategy and skills).

Another way of winning is to notice scenarios/situations that you are equal to due to your skills. We all notice people freaking out about things all the time, ranging from the bus being delayed to the power being out for two weeks during a freeze. A form of skill wealth is the number of adverse circumstances that you can handle with some level of confidence. This is just another way of resaying, from the book, how 'primitive' peoples are competent at basically every single thing in their environment, from shelter to food to medicine to ceremony. How many possible scenarios am I currently equal to?

A simple example: blowing a tire on a back road with no cell service. Do I know how to change a flat? A level up: someone gets a decent but non immediately life threatening laceration. My group is 12 days from civilization with no comms, and the medkit took a swim at the last rapid. Do I know how to keep it from getting infected? Do I know three different ways to keep it from getting infected?

This sounds like prepping, and it is. There's a path/connection between being prepared for adverse circumstances and just being equal to the world we live in. Consumer culture is set up to make us all unequal to our world, lost and dependent.

I thought this quote was relevant:
James Clear wrote:"Mental toughness is often portrayed as determination and persistence, but it can also be flexibility and adaptability.
- I can be happy anywhere.
- I can work with what I have.
- I can have a good day with anyone.
You are tough when your mood is not dependent on your conditions."
With the addendum: it's easier to have a good mood when it's impossible for any given condition to induce well justified doubt.

AxelHeyst
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

I've been mulling my use of the word 'incidental' in my as-if-FI approach, and I think it's not the appropriate word.

Incidental implies that making money is accidental, is given no consideration whatsoever. I think this is not right and actually probably impossible (at some point you wind up in a 'don't think of a purple elephant!' situation).

What I mean is that I'm trying to construct a WoG where money is never the zeroth order goal/effect. But it's fine for it to be a first or second order, acknowledged, goal, as long as it doesn't damage intrinsic motivation / stoke. This concern about intrinsic motivation is the heart of the matter for me.

Ideally, I'd do the thing even if I don't get paid. But that ideal might not always be the case. Yields and flows analysis demands that you examine all of the yields and flows and make a decision based on how it fits into your larger web of goals. Some activities might have lots of positive goals, but if it lacks any kind of possible remuneration, it just might not pass the go no go decision process. (An example would be last summer when I went out to help @mooretrees with their skoolie build. It was close to being something I'd do for zero remuneration, but noooot quite for a few reasons. The remuneration sealed the deal.)

A while ago I spent some time thinking about Buckminster Fuller's oath to himself, which was approximately to forget remuneration and just only try to do things to help humanity. I sort of mixed that into the soup of idea ingredients for axelERE, but I think I need to take it back out. It's an inspiring story... but also a) survivorship bias, b) his family went up to the brink of serious consequences as a result of that decision all the time, and c) it's just not, actually, good strategy. Just because you have the weight of justice/virtue on your side doesn't mean you won't wind up a bug on God's windshield. It's just not repeatable, so even if I DID succeed with it, I'd not be comfortable advising anyone else to do something so insane. I'm not necessarily optimizing my exact strategy for repeatability, but neither am I into hail-mary-ing it for the fences just because I can.

--

It's worth emphasizing as a reminder that what I'm doing is, at least approximately, canon. It just has a couple extras that I don't think fundamentally alter the strategy. By canon I mean in The Book.

In the chapter The Renaissance Lifestyler, there's a list of guidelines:
  • Reduce wants and needs from the marketplace to a minimum to decouple the buy-work connection. Check.
  • Decrease volume and size but increase the sophistication of your activities and possessions. Check.
  • Measure prosperity by less activity, not more. Do fewer useless things. Check.
  • Work for the purpose of earning money for no more than five years of your life or five hours a week. My chosen strategy is to focus on the latter, after getting halfway with the first pre-ERE.
  • Avoid generating waste and find ways to use the waste of others. WIP but Check.
  • Learn to use the system to your advantage, but don't be evil!
  • Serve yourself rather than having others serve you. Instead, help them. ?
  • Keep running costs down but pay for value. Check.
  • Maintain health to avoid the personal and monetary cost of sickness. WIP but check.
  • Build up the capital to live as a capitalist or the skills to always find a new job. Currently emphasizing the latter, but went halfway with the first preERE.
  • Focus on productive assets rather than stuff. Check.
  • Focus on developing skills rather than on passive entertainment. Check.
  • Gain the maximum in satisfaction with the minimum expenditure of money and energy. Check.
The twist is that I'm putting great effort into understanding human motivation and drive in order to do things that I want to do, not that merely I find tolerable, in addition to making that minimum required income. I think the standard semiERE pitch can sound like 'work a whatever but low-stress and low-time job for 'enough' income', whereas my twist is to put effort into generating 'enough' income as first or second order effects of activities I want to do for any number of other reasons.

There are a lot of stories of people who FIRE and then wind up doing stuff they want to do for money anyways. I'm basically just trying to skip to that mindset without having to pass through official FIRE first. My experimental hypothesis is that under the right circumstances, it's not necessary to do so (although under other circumstances, I see how it would be, i.e. people who'd be driven to anxiety by the lack of financial security that 3% or whatever represents to them).

At the moment, I have a very high value placed on autonomous time and developing intrinsic motivation / intrinsically motivated activities. My story is that I went through severe spiritual type 2 burnout. I really, really don't want to do anything like what I used to do for money ever again, not for two years, not for two months. I'm not sure I can, in fact. When I tried to work on the visualization studio startup, which on paper was something I'd like to do, I just.... didn't do it. I sat down, looked at my notes... and... didn't do it. It was too much like what I used to do, and the payoff was too far in the future, which is a great way of destroying intrinsic motivation.

I think I can generate >1CoL without much difficulty doing things I'm intrinsically motivated to do in such a way that doesn't corrupt the Intrinsic Motivation. The key is to maintain high levels of autonomy/agency, competence/sense of mastery, and a sense of relatedness/purpose (that won't get knocked out from under me, aka is robust).

That last paragraph is key!! If I'm right about it, it means getting a job or doing anything I'm not intrinsically motivated to do is a waste of time, because I have a path to FI that doesn't require it. It just will likely take longer, but that's fine because I'm not slogging to that point. My life doesn't start after FI, it's already going. My life is now, now.

Also, doing what I want to do anyway is more robust from an inflation and energy descent perspective. And this approach is more likely (I think) to get me to L7/L8 territory without getting stuck in a local maxima at L6.... I mean, it's a faster (if riskier?) path to postconsumer praxis than if I got a FTE and had to deal with golden handcuffs and lack of time/energy to devote to upskilling etc.

I guess I just feel like it's not necessary to pursue remuneration via any activity I think sucks. I think I've got enough stash, skills, and strategy to not have to deal with that bullshit ever again. And achieve the goals I have for how my life works in accordance with my values.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by jacob »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:33 pm
There are a lot of stories of people who FIRE and then wind up doing stuff they want to do for money anyways. I'm basically just trying to skip to that mindset without having to pass through official FIRE first. My experimental hypothesis is that under the right circumstances, it's not necessary to do so (although under other circumstances, I see how it would be, i.e. people who'd be driven to anxiety by the lack of financial security that 3% or whatever represents to them).
It almost surely depends on the field one is working in (is it growing, steady, or declining) and how good one is relative to the competition (better, same, worse). Much like a career, these combinations determine how easy it is to "move around", "get paid", and "pick and choose".

E.g.,

Growing + better: Pick of the litter. Also see Cal Newport's advice.
Declining + better: Say goodbye to worklife balance.
Steady + better: Grind your way up and learn politics. Sales is more important.
Growing + average: As long as you work hard, you can ride the trend to the top.
Declining + average: Start looking for another career track.
Steady + average: Sorry, we're not hiring. All positions are full.
...and so on.

Depending on some of the combinations, which again depend on personal interest, having FIRE as a backstop is nice.

zbigi
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by zbigi »

jacob wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:23 pm

Steady + average: Sorry, we're not hiring. All positions are full.
I've experienced this part of the matrix when I recently tried to get some computer vision or physical simulations coding job for fun. Suddently, I was not a hot shot anymore, and basically got rejected either right away, or after a couple interviews. Those fields are not growing and I'm not that experienced at them. It was interesting to confirm that I'm basically only valueable to companies in a extremely narrow context of my current specialty(I guess it's kind of obvious, but knowing something and experiencing it first hand are two different things).

AxelHeyst
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

Yes... bear in mind the idea is that I don't generate income from one field, but rather that I develop 6+ activities to the +1 level (someone would pay me for it if conditions are right), and that each of these activities fits in my WoG at an L6 if not L7 level mindset (meaning 'make money' is not the only reason I do these things), and importantly that my burn rate is such that only 1-3 of these activities needs to throw off some income in order to go >1CoL. Over months and years, which activities generate that income varies according to many factors. I envision an income robustness score of 3-4 every year, but having a 'how many diverse sources have contributed to your income over the years?' being 6+.

I actually don't envision asking someone to hire me very often, if at all. Except for when the circumstance is right for me to be stoked to get some traditional dirtbag jobs, like barista or barback. Point is I doubt I'll ever again seek a professional job.

To prudentelo's point, though, the proof remains to be seen in the pudding. I think I'm reaching diminishing returns on thinking about this at the abstract level - excising the word 'incidental' feels like a last big theory/strategy hangup I had to deal with. From here on out I ought to be more focused on actually doing stuff, aka trying my ideas out in the real world and see what works and what doesn't. At the moment, since I'm still traveling, that mostly looks like working on my skills development system, practical skill development at my workaway projects, internal work around intrinsic motivation and burnout, radical frugality, etc.

AxelHeyst
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AxelHeyst »

jacob wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:23 pm
Depending on some of the combinations, which again depend on personal interest, having FIRE as a backstop is nice.
Agreed, and also worth noting (somewhat to myself, in an assurance that I'm not taking totally stupid risks here) that my current target CoL is 3.6% of my stash. So another way of framing this is that I *am* FIRE, by virtue of superleanCoL, and am just taking the extra step of continuing to generate some income as backup.

Interestingly, my Total Current Assets have remained flat since early 2021 (reminder, I got laid off in early 2021). Just looking at the graph, you'd assume I had an income with 0% savings rate. In reality, a portion of my TCA is in accounts receivable from selling PPE which I estimate to be at 25% risk and also I'm not earning interest on. So the graph lies kind and I've got to actually generate real income sometime soon, but still, my 'gap year' (or two) is working out all right so far.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by jacob »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:33 pm
Incidental implies that making money is accidental, is given no consideration whatsoever. I think this is not right and actually probably impossible (at some point you wind up in a 'don't think of a purple elephant!' situation).
Grammar Nazi disagrees. That's what coincidental means. Incidental means something happening as a byproduct of the main thing.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

In my experience, incidental income is most often the byproduct of the "main thing" being "simple availability/flexibility." 40 hours/week + commute + need to unwind + identification with career/job leaves little opportunity for incidental income at the margin. If you want a side-gig in addition to full-time job, you really have to be motivated and focused on time management.

The second biggest factor would be having enough social connections that reasonable number of other humans know you are "available/flexible."

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:32 am
... enough social connections that reasonable number of other humans know you are "available/flexible."
... and capable. Therefore marketing enters. WL7+ possesses a reasonable amount of skills that normal people pay professionals for. For my part, I could fix all the bicycles, change all the watch batteries, and fix most of the broken furniture on the block. However, only one neighbor knows I'm available, flexible, capable, and willing to do so, because it's not something I advertise.

Conversely, we have a bunch of "amateur landscapers" running around. If they spot you from across the street or yard, they'll offer a business card. More enterprising professionals will do the same thing. If they're fixing the gutters et al. in a house, they have their apprentice walking around knocking on doors and soliciting.

Some kind of marketing is required, whether it's word-of-mouth, flyers, ... it's a necessary condition.

Add: There seems to be some kind of underserved limbo of people who could but don't bother.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

This might be a bit tangential, but I know several people who make money via selling skills to a wide social network, and it seems like it could become its own form of prison depending on your personal aptitude. The style of networking required to make it work is a lot of performing for other people's expectations so they like you enough to hire you, and you're constantly having to hustle to find new jobs. That might work for some people if it suits their personality type and they enjoy doing that, but it is completely miserable to the wrong personality type (INTJ lone wolf, for example).

In other words, networked social connections carry a cost to maintain that may be subjectively higher for some people depending on the situation, and it's easy to not see that if one's personality is naturally extroverted.

prudentelo
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by prudentelo »

Interested seeing how it works out

Reading many FIRE / ERE diaries, never seen anyone cover expenses with what I can call "incidental" income. Even at low level of JAFI

Closest are part timers but their jobs are "intentional"... just part time

My impression with informal job is also you spent lots of time marketing. When you have customer list, gets back to "incidental"/autopilot. But takes work like a career to get good customer list + fixes to a location



Have you considered just being a very bad employee?

Unemployment is low in most rich countries. You will get some kind of job if you are not picky. Just do 1% more than needed to not be fired

incidental pay check

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by shaz »

The problem with being a very bad employee at most jobs is it means you still have all the time commitment but you aren't doing much during that time so it is boring. That changes when you work remotely since it is possible to pretend to be working while actually being off doing something else entirely. This is something I have been debating with our CEO quite a lot lately. His preferred solution is to force everyone back into the office; my preferred solution is to raise our expectations for what employees accomplish. On an emotional level I hate the idea of being a very bad employee since for me, that would remove a lot of the rewards of a job and be soul-destroying.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by theanimal »

In my experience if you do good work, then others will advertise for you. And if you are not pursuing things for their monetary purpose, then marketing isn't necessary. My understanding of incidental is that it is something happens occasionally, without regularity. Since AH is more or less already FI, he doesn't need to pursue the customer list or advertise to others. He's not looking for a regular paycheck. If he makes money, that's great. But that's not the purpose. The purpose is to follow stoke, build skills and maintain intrinsic desire in developing his lifeboat flotilla. If money comes as a bonus, that's great.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by jacob »

theanimal wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:01 pm
In my experience if you do good work, then others will advertise for you.
This is true. Even to the point that companies try to "steal" the good employees from each other. E.g. star employee moves employer and is asked if they know other people they could bring over. (Non-compete agreements try to thwart this and the fact that they do suggest it's a real thing.)
prudentelo wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:17 am
Have you considered just being a very bad employee?
Which makes the "Gervais Loser"-strategy a tenuous strategy in the long run. It's easy and it works until it doesn't. It's ultimately an exit strategy.

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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by OutOfTheBlue »

The fact is that with CoL around 1 JAFI, it's not hard to meet your yearly expenses, and there is a range of ways you can go about it. Having a 10x stash doesn't hurt either, but thriving with little is very liberating in itself.

If you combine various income streams, it quickly adds up.

Especially when you have a broad skillset and an engeneering background/mindset.

For some, it is harder to sustainably live under 1 JAFI than to become FI in the more traditional sense.

Achieving howlie status makes things easier as it shifts mindset and over reliance on the monetary aspect.

When thinking/theorizing about a hybrid ERE (my word for SemiERE), it may be useful to distinguish between the overall model and particular directions/decisions one can take. Even an individualized AxelERE-type model does not necessarily need to account for every choice and benefits from keeping a higher level/broad view. In other words, when one thinks of AxelERE, OutOfTheBlueERE, etc it makes sense to allow for a range of approaches (optionality), no need to over-restrict oneself by making the model too specific.

For instance, you have the possibility of using your engineering visualization skills in a number of ways in the future, including in salary man working man and business man quadrants.

This option further adds resilience, even if it just remains as an option.

That's why I like the shift from "incidental" to "deprioritized" income generation, with stoke and skills at the center stage.

I have enjoyed seeing your thinking evolve/gain in precision and clarity in these last posts.

TLDR: Keeping things a little abstract is a feature, not a bug.

Keep rocking!
Last edited by OutOfTheBlue on Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

prudentelo
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Re: The Education of Axel Heyst

Post by prudentelo »

jacob wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:10 pm
This is true. Even to the point that companies try to "steal" the good employees from each other. E.g. star employee moves employer and is asked if they know other people they could bring over. (Non-compete agreements try to thwart this and the fact that they do suggest it's a real thing.)



Which makes the "Gervais Loser"-strategy a tenuous strategy in the long run. It's easy and it works until it doesn't. It's ultimately an exit strategy.
Depends at what level. At <1JAFI (essentially illegal salary in USA) plenty of jobs hire people they know are poor workers and unreliable even without any strategy to be poor workers and unreliable. And plenty of these works churn through many such employers each year

ERE kind of person actually more likely to be valuable employee ins uch situation even while half or third or quarter assing.

Coasting out of your specialized corp masters degree level job is exit strategy

theanimal wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:01 pm
In my experience if you do good work, then others will advertise for you. And if you are not pursuing things for their monetary purpose, then marketing isn't necessary. My understanding of incidental is that it is something happens occasionally, without regularity. Since AH is more or less already FI, he doesn't need to pursue the customer list or advertise to others. He's not looking for a regular paycheck. If he makes money, that's great. But that's not the purpose. The purpose is to follow stoke, build skills and maintain intrinsic desire in developing his lifeboat flotilla. If money comes as a bonus, that's great.
Problem is there is hump of effort/investment required between "nothing" and "something". First client has to punt. Second client does not. Doesnt scale totally smoothly. Also, trade off effort vs endurance on marketing. So, low effort means more tied to location.
Last edited by prudentelo on Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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