Gilberto de Piento's Journal

[Gilberto de Piento]

June 2022

I have little time to post these days but I want to provide a quick update. I don't think any readers are holding their breath waiting for updates but I don't want to just drop the journal with no explanation.

I haven't been feeling very good about my FIRE progress for a year or two and after my last post here I've stopped updating my spreadsheet or even looking at my accounts. This isn't about recent inflation or the market downturn. I've been posting in this journal for almost 10 years and it just doesn't feel like I'm on a trajectory to FIRE and I'm tired of failing at it. It's a downer to look at my finances or update the journal.

I used to think something would change and knock me onto a better trajectory but that was fantasy. I needed to take some radical actions and never did. I have some mental health problems and a personality that leads to being able to see that things are going badly but not to be able to make changes. Learned helplessness and an unwillingness to take risks or fail is the best way I can think of to describe it.

It also feels like at this point in my life I have very little agency over anything. I'm thoroughly stuck so even though I can see some ways I might make FIRE work I haven't been able to. For many years I haven't been able to reduce expenses much without it causing relationship strife and I haven't been able to get my income up either. FIRE just doesn't seem to be in the cards for me. I know many of the decisive, "damn the torpedoes" people in these forums would be able to take the tools and parts that I have and make it happen but I just can't seem to get it to work.

For better or worse, my life is very different than when I started posting here anyway. I started out here wanting to have a MMM type life (without knowing about MMM - not sure he existed yet) along with the freedom to hike, bike, paddle, have fun whenever and wherever I wanted to. I also wanted to try out some random, more physical and more interesting and more rewarding jobs. Even if I found a suitcase with a million dollars tomorrow none of that stuff is happening due to physical problems and family commitments. If I had that million more dollars and could FIRE tomorrow I'd have to be a stay at home parent and while I love the family I'm not really built for that and it's not something I have ever wanted to do. I know that sounds bad. I hate to admit it and maybe I shouldn't post it but the family stuff in large volume is tough and it makes me fucking antsy in the way that listening to a lecture in school used to.

I'm not planning on leaving the forums or dropping the journal entirely but I'm not really thinking about FIRE anymore beyond trying to come to terms with it being yet another failed goal in my life. Will keep you posted if there are any updates I want to talk about, large or small. I hope y'all are doing well.

[candide]

I'm a pretty new guy here, and as always should just speak for myself, but I appreciate this level of honesty.

What are some things you've learned about or enjoyed on this forum in spite of not feeling you've made much progress toward your bottom line?

[shaz]

Sorry to hear you feel stuck. Does it help to realize the kids will grow up eventually and so the problem of family commitments will resolve with time? Perhaps you could take pleasure in developing skills and the tools for resilience while you wait it out. I think one of the nice things about ERE is that, unlike FIRE, it is more of a journey than a destination.

[Laura Ingalls]

My ER fantasies did not meet reality due to having kid’s in public school and dealing with their schedules. However, I did have fun raising them with more time affluence that I my earlier days of parenting.

Making average income and spending less than average was always relatively easy. Dribbling in a little income and spending less than average (way less if you take out travel which many people don’t really do anyway.)

Anyway don’t be too discouraged I am sure you are a better person for your exploration and self-awareness.

[Gilberto de Piento]

What are some things you've learned about or enjoyed on this forum in spite of not feeling you've made much progress toward your bottom line?

I'd have to look back at all my posts to remember but off the top of my head I'd say I've gotten a lot out of having some other people to talk to that feel like my tribe. Also, reading about other people's lives here made my money saving/"live simply so others can simply live" interests seem reasonable in a world that is built to get people to spend money/consume. Sometimes the ERE forum has even pushed me a bit further than I would have gone on my own.

I think it also had a dark side for me because I was never able to fully implement the ERE lifestyle. I may have been more likely to achieve my FIRE goal if I had not spent so much time/energy on avoiding spending and instead spent money to conserve time/energy and used that time/energy to improve my income by forwarding my career or side business. If my income had improved that would have provided an ongoing improvement in finances and would have provided investments to compound rather than a one time money savings of a few hundred or even thousand dollars. Making this work though would have depended on whether paying a plumber/mechanic/whoever to do a project would have meant I would have used the extra time to actually improve my income or not. It also would have depended on whether or not those steps to improve income actually worked - I tried some of that about five years ago and despite a lot of skills improvement I wasn't able to get my income to increase. As with other goals I've had though, I probably wasn't persistent enough about getting a higher paying job and/or I went about it in an ineffective way.

[Gilberto de Piento]

Sorry to hear you feel stuck. Does it help to realize the kids will grow up eventually and so the problem of family commitments will resolve with time? Perhaps you could take pleasure in developing skills and the tools for resilience while you wait it out. I think one of the nice things about ERE is that, unlike FIRE, it is more of a journey than a destination.

Thanks shaz. Good point about the family commitments reducing with time. That's true and it's easy to forget in the moment. I can't complain too much because I'm doing the family thing set to a relatively easy mode. The big hole in that is the lack of any helpful social network. Without family or friends (circumstances and lack of friend skills/interest put us in this position) there's no help to support any of the load at times of peak demand.

[candide]

I know what you mean with the sense of it being a tribe. It's FI/RE but with curiosity about how things actually work and better mechanisms for dealing with the inevitable attempts at being flashy.

Again, I really appreciate your honesty. I think the honesty here is also part of the secret sauce. It allows for a great deal of dissessus.

I haven't read the backlog of your journal, so I don't have anything else constructive to write at the moment. I also don't know if further discussion of this matter is uncomfortable for you. I don't want to make it twist, so to speak.

Maybe it is better to try to connect:
I'm about to be a parent myself, so I am dipping out of being technically FI, and after a few years I'll see how far away I will be due to increased burn rate. I'm very interested in perspectives on these challenges.

Also, I'm prone to depression and know well the increased guilt that comes from when a bout of depression has prevented a project from happening whether from neglect or the subsequent loss of social capital from a level of charisma dropping -- at that point I am essentially depressed about being depressed (depressed about being the kind of person who goes through depression) and its hard to get out of that. I had given up gardening for years because of this, and when I did it was a great a sense of relief, and it did free up a lot of mental energy to focus on other things.

[Mister Imperceptible]

As someone without children I feel that as a source of emptiness. If I have a child now I’ll be 53 when the child turns 18. The longer I wait, the less I would be able to enjoy being a father, and the older I will be when I have them. It is not all my fault, because it takes two to tango, but that is the gambit I have played- trying to FIRE first, then fulfill my potential/self-actualize, then that may lead to me being a father while my net worth is in runaway mode.

Hawthorne said at age 33, “I have not lived, I have only dreamed of living.” Mozart died at 35; later this year I will be older than he ever was.

Maybe the grass is not greener on the other side. Maybe these are the good times.

What if this is as good as it gets?

[Alice_AU]

I am grateful for your last update. Yes every journey is ups AND downs like in this famous meme.



But I still think you're (and frankly, me, too) in a much better place now you've been trying all these years than if you weren't even trying or worse - not even aware of ERE, FIRE etc. Imagine that!

[AxelHeyst]

Gdp, have you done (or considered) therapy? Do you think it'd be appropriate, if it could help you sort out some of these personality traits you seem to not necessarily like but accept about yourself? (Asking as someone who still hasn't gone to therapy of any kind, but wishes I could tell my younger self to go do it). [Edit-apologies if you aren't interested in 'fixing'-oriented comments. I also really appreciate and admire the thoughtfulness of your post.]

[Gilberto de Piento]

As someone without children I feel that as a source of emptiness. If I have a child now I’ll be 53 when the child turns 18. The longer I wait, the less I would be able to enjoy being a father, and the older I will be when I have them. It is not all my fault, because it takes two to tango, but that is the gambit I have played- trying to FIRE first, then fulfill my potential/self-actualize, then that may lead to me being a father while my net worth is in runaway mode.

Maybe the grass is not greener on the other side. Maybe these are the good times.[/url]

I'm not qualified to give anyone advice and I'm not sure I totally understand your comments but I'll make a couple of comments. Getting pregnant and having a healthy child doesn't always happen on the first try. I don't want to scare anybody but it can take many years sometimes. It's also tough being an older parent. If all the other pieces are in place I don't know if it is wise to make having kids wait for self actualization and financial independence, especially if those are a long way off or may never happen.

[Gilberto de Piento]

Also, I'm prone to depression...

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you are able to get help if needed. I'm glad to hear you are finding ways to make it work. I wish you the best of luck with everything, especially having a baby soon. It's real tough but enjoy it because it really does go by fast.

[Gilberto de Piento]

I am grateful...

I'm glad you got something out of the update. I'm definitely financially in a better place having worked on FIRE for years. Thanks for the meme!

[Mister Imperceptible]

If you marry, you will regret it; if you do not marry, you will also regret it; if you marry or if you do not marry, you will regret both; whether you marry or you do not marry, you will regret both. Laugh at the world’s follies, you will regret it; weep over them, you will also regret it; if you laugh at the world’s follies or if you weep over them, you will regret both; whether you laugh at the world’s follies or you weep over them, you will regret both. Believe a girl, you will regret it; if you do not believe her, you will also regret it; if you believe a girl or you do not believe her, you will regret both; whether you believe a girl or you do not believe her, you will regret both. If you hang yourself, you will regret it; if you do not hang yourself, you will regret it; if you hang yourself or you do not hang yourself, you will regret both; whether you hang yourself or you do not hang yourself, you will regret both. This, gentlemen, is the sum of all practical wisdom.

"Hump, do you know the parable of the sower who went forth to sow? If you will remember, some of the seed fell upon stony places, where there was not much earth, and forthwith they sprung up because they had no deepness of earth. And when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprung up and choked them."

"Well?" I said.

"Well?" he queried, half petulantly. "It was not well.I was one of those seeds."

Whatever regrets you have, had you made different decisions you would just have different regrets.

[prudentelo]

I found your journal inspiring. You made very good progress to FIRE. You have gone more than half the way. You have a lot of money to do something with now.

Maybe you are down because of the market. This will pass. If your job is safe, almost surely you will profit too.

Finding meaning of your life is never easy. In meantime, if you dont want to give up work you dont have to.

[Gilberto de Piento]

I found your journal inspiring. You made very good progress...

Thanks prudentelo. I'm not down because of the market. It's the realization that my numbers just aren't adding up to FIRE anytime soon and that there's little I can do to improve the situation given my personal circumstances.

[Gilberto de Piento]

Gdp, have you done (or considered) therapy? Do you think it'd be appropriate, if it could help you sort out some of these personality traits you seem to not necessarily like but accept about yourself? (Asking as someone who still hasn't gone to therapy of any kind, but wishes I could tell my younger self to go do it). [Edit-apologies if you aren't interested in 'fixing'-oriented comments. I also really appreciate and admire the thoughtfulness of your post.]

Fixing comments are fine, thanks for weighing in, though I don't think I have much interest in going into a lot of detail in the mental health area.

I've gotten therapy a few times but always to go from "crisis mode" to "OK, I feel a little better, I can live with this shit" mode. I think it can be very helpful in that situation. I know people use therapy for other things but 1. I've been quick to stop going for various reasons after about 5 sessions, and 2. it doesn't really seem designed to help with taking action problems, though I think the therapy world is trying to address that.

That said, looking back what I would have really benefitted from would have been (this is unlikely to happen to say the least):
1. Some sort of person with more life experience to show me possibilities when I was younger. I couldn't see anything for myself beyond the obvious path.
2. Some sort of drill sergeant type person to yell at me to stay focused and make the necessary sacrifices to get where I want to be.
3. A life coach type person to help me figure out what steps to take and how to take them.

[AxelHeyst]

Yeah, life coach sounds more appropriate. This article by Scott Young just caught my attention, about how tutored students are 2 sigma better than untutored.
https://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/2022/0 ... =389165773

It's about academics, not ERE. I wonder if data exists for life coached vs non life coached? Filtering for 'bad' / ineffective life coaches vs good ones, which might be more of a problem in a field with not as clear metrics as improved scholastic marks? And then, having answers to those questions, is ERE life coaching a good or a really, really bad idea? I almost wonder if there has to be a larger pool of people for that to work. MMG groups are the closest we have, and they help, but it's certainly possible to cruise while being a member of one if you really want to (it's no one else's role to make *you* succeed: it's the groups role to maintain a social environment that makes it easier to succeed/ more difficult to fail/cruise).