A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Where are you and where are you going?
Igotgoals
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by Igotgoals »

Happy Birthday, Dave. Glad you bought the kayak you wanted.

IlliniDave
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

sky wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 8:14 pm
I have this trailer, it seems to be good quality: https://genesistrailers.com/product-info

However if you can get it on the rooftop, that is more convenient and less yard storage space for the trailer.

Which kayak did you get?

Throughout my latest build I told myself this is the last boat that I will build. But now that I am almost done, I am thinking about a skin on frame kayak: https://capefalconkayaks.com/

I would love to get a Hobie Adventure Island.
Well, I abandoned the trailer idea for now. I lost my faith in the company that makes the micro (my term) trailer I'd been looking at. The reason is that it comes with only one safety chain and the three states I know for sure I'd be transporting in/through all require 2 safety chains. Inquiries to the company's product support about any sort of allowance in the design and/or a recommended procedure for adding a second safety chain went unanswered. I'm not a mechanical engineering expert so I wasn't comfortable McGyver-ing it. The ironic thing is that the state in which they are manufactured also requires two safety chains.

Another downside was that the manufacturer's recommended top speed was below highway speed limits (generally 70 in my neck of the woods). So Despite the pita factor I put a rooftop system on my SUV yesterday. Watching a lot of kayak porn on Youtube convinced me there are easier ways to get the thing up there than the way the guys at the local Kayak shop showed me. Inspired by those crossbars that telescope out I think I can load from the side and put a pole on the roof fore of the front bar on the far side and aft of the front bar on the near side to temporarily cradle/stabilize the boat after lifting the bow above the crossbars while I move around to grab/lift the stern of the boat, turn it over, and hoist up to the roof.

In the long run I'd still like a trailer, easpecially if I can find one about half the size of the one you linked. Unfortunately most "kayak trailers" are made to hold 6 boats, which is 5 more than I'd ever tow.

This is the boat I got.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dpIkISg_6s

I didn't watch this video until this morning but it illustrates pretty well the degree of stability the boat has and why I picked it over faster, lighter models, at least for a first boat. Since a good bit of my fishing will be paddling alone in remote waters, I prioritized safety. Weighs 80 lbs and is pretty fat in the middle, 41" I think, which is why loading on a vehicle as tall as my Pilot is a bit of a chore. The rooftop rails are about 6'5" off the ground.

jacob
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by jacob »

IlliniDave wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 6:04 am
I didn't watch this video until this morning but it illustrates pretty well the degree of stability the boat has and why I picked it over faster, lighter models, at least for a first boat.
If you want to nerd out over this, the relevant term for stability is righting moment as a function of heeling angle. Broad beamed boats are harder to flip. However, if you do manage to turtle them, they're also harder to unflip. Seems like having a rope [permanently] attached to the middle of the gunwale and standing on top of it and leaning out (and falling back into the water) should do the trick to flip at back again though.

7Wannabe5
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Cute canoe! Doesn’t it make some degree of sense to equate your ability to put it on roof rack with your ability to portage it solo?

IlliniDave
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

shaz wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:23 pm
I have used a paddleboard on the ocean in Maine and on reservoirs in the Colorado mountains neither of which had warm water and stayed warm enough. If you have waves slapping up when you are sitting then you will get a wet rear. My paddleboard is more stable than any kayak I have used but most of my kayak hours were in a playboat on whitewater so that isn't saying much.

Congratulations on getting your kayak.
Thanks, yeah, the traditional kayaks, that I guess now go by either recreational or racing kayaks are a whole different beast. Interesting about paddleboards--I'll have to read up on those more.

IlliniDave
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

Igotgoals wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 6:49 am
Happy Birthday, Dave. Glad you bought the kayak you wanted.
Thanks, Igotgoals! Glad to see you're still around.

IlliniDave
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

jacob wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 8:15 am
If you want to nerd out over this, the relevant term for stability is righting moment as a function of heeling angle. Broad beamed boats are harder to flip. However, if you do manage to turtle them, they're also harder to unflip. Seems like having a rope [permanently] attached to the middle of the gunwale and standing on top of it and leaning out (and falling back into the water) should do the trick to flip at back again though.
I would tend to make the assumption that it would be nearly impossible to right if flipped and would try to swim it to shallow water and beach it. Although your idea does sound like it might work. Just have to be very mindful of the water temperature and use an extra dose of common sense when it's on the cold side. But now at least I can start looking into the nerd terms!!

IlliniDave
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 1:48 pm
Cute canoe! Doesn’t it make some degree of sense to equate your ability to put it on roof rack with your ability to portage it solo?
I don't know what technically distinguishes a fishing kayak from a canoe other than what the manufacturers call them, but on mine only a very small fraction of the deck is covered so I suppose ultra-stable canoe would be a fair term.

I wouldn't take this boat on any sort of wilderness adventure that required portaging. I'll have a set of wheels or a small cart to pull it around on land, which are outright banned in the wilderness area, so I'll be restricted to water connected to the entry points. Outside of the wilderness I might attempt accessing a "carry-in" lake here or there of the trail looks suitable to pull the boat on wheels. Otherwise I'll stick with lakes/rivers with public boat access/ramps. I've identified 63 so far within roughly an hours drive from the hideout.

If I ever decide to go on a real trip into the BWCA/Quetico or similar I would most likely rent a canoe from an outfitter or maybe buy one. A mere $2500 will get a 12' solo canoe that weighs under 30 lbs, although it would be a chore to fish out of compared to the fishin yak. Much better for traveling and humping over unimproved trails though.

sky
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by sky »

That looks like an excellent design for fishing. The self draining feature is very convenient both while in use and during storage.

IlliniDave
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

sky wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 8:29 am
That looks like an excellent design for fishing. The self draining feature is very convenient both while in use and during storage.
"Scupper holes" was a new term/concept for me. As long as I don't overload the boat (and presuming it works as designed) it's a great feature. I'm not a big fan of spending all day fishing with my feet sitting in water--something that I had my fill of in plain aluminum boats with outboards. Although I'd expect the yak to take on more water under general use the channel system/scuppers plus a more forward seat position should help significantly. They have a 10' model I came very close to getting instead, but when I paddled one on the local river the deck forward of the seat just seemed really small.

My mission now is determining how to combat stable flies on the water (look like house flies but they bite, and only from the ankles down). I usually wear long pants on the boat but those little suckers bite through socks (and "water shoes") like they're nothing. Think I'm going to try some repellent-impregnated socks along with some non-DEET spray.

IlliniDave
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

Finally got the 'yak to the house yesterday. I built myself two different load assist systems out of PVC last week. The one I tried out was the more elaborate one that basically forms a ramp by extending the two cross rails on the roof of the Pilot down to the ground at a 45-degree angle using a length of PVC and a 45-degree slip coupler. Seemed to work very well for loading. I paid a modest premium for a pair of specialized lashing straps that worked really well and had the nice feature of having the cam buckle encased in rubber so they can be pitched over the without worry of cracking a window on the other side. The boat extended less than a foot over the windshield which means a bow tie-down isn't really necessary (according to the "experts" at the outfitter's), but I put one on anyway (stern too). I carried the boat upside down like one would a canoe.

What I learned was a reasonably clever hydrodynamic design translates into a pretty good aerodynamic design. I was able to get up to 55 mph taking it home, with a gusty cross wind, and would have never known I had the 'yak strapped to the roof if I couldn't the rope in front. From 55 to 70mph could make a difference, but I don't think I'll need hearing protection for the 8 hr dive to MN.

My loading system did not work so well for the boat's dismount. I'd heat molded some 2" PVC to slide a couple inches over the end of the cross rails, which are shaped like airplane wings. Pulling the boat off pulled the pvc "socket" off the end of the rail. Even when I was careful to lift the leading edge of the boat above them, the boat is so fat I couldn't avoid the far edge dragging over the connection point and pulling the ramp off the rails. So I took them off and just manhandled the boat down. It "only" weighs 80 lbs but the length/width made it awkward. With practice I should be able to improve technique though. I am concerned about doing it that way after a long day of paddling, but I suppose I can always just leave the boat on the car overnight and deal with it in the morning. However I think I'm going to modify the ramp rails by drilling a hole or cutting a slot so I can lash the top to the cross rail riser.

That system wasn't a clever invention on my part, it's simplification of a system I saw on Youtube where a kayak fishing addict with a bad back rigged up a winching system to pull his boat onto an SUV top. The expense was about $66 in PVC and $20 for a pvc cutter that would handle the 2" pipe (my old one would only do 1"-1.25".

The alternate system is just a 5' length of PVC that lashes to the front crossrail to sort of cradle the bow of the inverted boat after it's lifted allowing a hands-free opportunity to move to the stern of the boat and lift it onto the roof rack. It's a kluge imitation of the telescoping cross rail systems one can buy. I looked at that option but found none that would handle the combined weight and width of my boat. That one cost $12 in PVC plus $5 for a piece of rubber pipe insulation. The insulation is just there to provide a bit of friction so the boat wont slide off the extended rail when it flexes. The stuff is not very durable, so I'm looking at replacing it with some sort of grip tape or similar. But it should get me through the season given I anticipate only sporadic use of it.

The reason for multiple options is that the ramp rail system requires about 8-9 feet of clearance to the side of the vehicle which I won't always be able to count on.

All-in-all breaking down the boat for vehicle-top transport is a bit of a PITA, but not so much it's an outright deterrent. In the long run I might still wind up with a small trailer. I'm 58 now and my crossfit days are now almost a decade in the past so I don't know how long I'll be comfortable with the overhead strength required to manhandle the boat on and off the roof.

The only thing I'm missing is an adapter plate to mount my chart plotter/sonar screen. Crap weather today so while the boat's in the garage and still fairly clean I'm going to give it a coat of that 303 UV protectant and start putting together the mounting hardware for the sonar/transducer. Sunday is supposed to be a decent day but I'll probably wait until Monday to put the boat on the water--weekends at the little local state park lake are usually a zoo and I'd rather work out my system for putting the boat in and taking it out when people aren't impatiently lined up at the ramp and I have room on the water to do the calibrations required for all the electronics. Then crap weather again Tues-Thurs, so possibly on Friday next week I'll get it out again to tackle the motor/chart plotter integration. The following week looks like it will be fair so I hope to get out at least three days fishing before I take the boat up to the hideout and the $hit gets real, as they say. The local lake in question isn't much of a fishing spot, highly pressured, but it gives me some hours on the water to start honing my system and working out the arrangement of all the equipment.

It feels good to have a project like this. One thing that's been amusing is in my interactions with the kayak guys I can see the habituated engineer in me. I ask a lot of questions they say they've never been asked before. To them you get a boat, a paddle, a fishing pole and go fishing. I'm subconsciously putting together a system with a "whole life" focus. I'm using "system" from an engineering perspective rather than the way it's typically used here. The simplicity of their outlook has kept me from analysis paralysis, and my nerdiness has yielded an overall solution that provides me flexibility to embark on a variety of waters without going completely overboard expense-wise.

white belt
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by white belt »

IlliniDave wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 10:23 am
My mission now is determining how to combat stable flies on the water (look like house flies but they bite, and only from the ankles down). I usually wear long pants on the boat but those little suckers bite through socks (and "water shoes") like they're nothing. Think I'm going to try some repellent-impregnated socks along with some non-DEET spray.
There are such things as mosquito net pants that cover your feet, so they might be worth looking into as long as the flies won’t bite through them (they should be loose and a far enough from the surface of your skin that the flies can’t reach you). You can also treat your clothes with permethrin which may or may not have less health risks than DEET spray. My only other suggestion off the top of my head would be wearing something like waders, but that might not be a enjoyable on a hot summer day.

I think it’s good to have something to tinker with if you have the engineer’s mindset. I feel the same way about when I get into certain hobbies.

sky
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by sky »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFqgZs8K370
Cartop boat ladder system

I sewed some bug protection nylon fabric booties which are light and relatively cool, just a tube with one end closed and elastic around the other end, like an oversized sock that goes over the calf. The flies are aggressive, there may be a need for more than one layer of nylon. I made them to be able to relax or nap while taking a break without getting driven mad by biting flies around the ankles.

jacob
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by jacob »

DEET all the way!

Socks go over the pants. Then I spray the top of the socks and shoes. Insects don't like to land on that.

Alternatively, dinghy boots might work? That's what I used for yacht racing. They provide a very tactile feel of anything you step on the boat, but I'd recommend against walking far or much at all on land or beyond the dock.

shaz
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by shaz »

If you don't want to spray DEET or impregnate your clothes, you could try clip on fly repellant. You might be able to clip it on the boat instead of on you and still have it be effective.

I have nylon gaiters I use for cross country skiing that also work to protect my ankles from flies. The ones I have are very lightweight and not too hot. I think I bought them for $3 at a rummage sale at an outdoor outfitters shop.

IlliniDave
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

white belt wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 9:43 am
There are such things as mosquito net pants that cover your feet... You can also treat your clothes with permethrin ... My only other suggestion off the top of my head would be wearing something like waders...
I think it’s good to have something to tinker with if you have the engineer’s mindset. I feel the same way about when I get into certain hobbies.
sky wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 12:45 pm
... I sewed some bug protection nylon fabric booties ...
jacob wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 2:26 pm
DEET all the way! Socks go over the pants. Then I spray the top of the socks and shoes. Insects don't like to land on that ... Alternatively, dinghy boots might work? ... They provide a very tactile feel of anything you step on the boat ...
shaz wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 10:58 am
If you don't want to spray DEET or impregnate your clothes, you could try clip on fly repellant. You might be able to clip it on the boat instead of on you and still have it be effective.

I have nylon gaiters I use for cross country skiing that also work to protect my ankles from flies. The ones I have are very lightweight and not too hot...
All good ideas! Thanks

Jacob, pants tucked into socks is standard when I'm hiking out in the bush early in the season when there are a lot of ticks. Keeps them on the outside. Then when I get home I immediately change out of the pants and hang them over the porch rail. After some time when the ticks realize there's no dinner to be had they crawl up to the top of the folded pants in their "I'm going to latch on to the next thing that happens by" pose. Then I gather them up and flush them. I've tried that in the water but the flies still bite through. DEET does work, but seems to work best when reapplied every couple hours. Fine in an aluminum boat, but in a plastic boat I'm a little hesitant. I did get some non-DEET repellent to try, but I've never found anything that comes close to DEET in effectiveness. We'll see how this stuff does.

They make specialty water shoes/boots for kayakers. I think its to keep traction when they are paddling rivers and need to get out and pull their boats over deadfalls and throughshallow stretches. Nothing slicker than a wet rock with moss growing on it. The ones at the local kayak shop are pretty pricey. They are probably great for standing in the boat though. They look like they'd deter stable flies, appear to be neoprene.

Shaz, I haven't heard that one, worth looking into. What I have heard some people use in their boats are fly traps--those paper strips with glue and presumably some sort of attractant. They also get used a lot in barns.

white belt, I'll look into mosquito net pants. The booties sound like a good idea too, sky. In either case they'd need to be extremely blousey. stable flies have sharp little mouth parts that will cut through most "summer" fabric pretty easily.

Another trick for any fishermen that read this--try to avoid bringing fish in the boat. Ive learned to rest the handle of my net against the gunwale and not lift the fish out of the water until they are unhooked. They don't freak out until/unless you lift them out of the water, so a lot less potential for injury/easier on the fish and avoids awful tangles of fish, especially tooth ones, fishing line, lure and net. The side benefit I discovered by accident is that keeping the fish "slime" out of the boats reduces the number of flies that find it by an order of magnitude.

I don't remember if I mentioned this but I did buy two pairs of permethrin-impregnated socks to try, and a spray called Buggins which has a blend of essential oils which I saw some recommendations for on fishing forums for biting flies.
Last edited by IlliniDave on Wed May 25, 2022 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

IlliniDave
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

Well, I finally got the boat on the water Monday. I'd give the overall adventure a grade of C-/D+. I discovered that my PVC "ramp" did not work well for offloading the boat with the boat carried upside down. Nothing to grab onto and I don't have the flexibility of my 19-year-old self to cradle it all the way to the ground. Luckily the boat is pretty tough. Loading it after paddling around for a while was no fun either, especially when on the first try I didn't remember to close the rear liftgate resulting in an awkward drop. Rookie mistake. On the water the transducer pole I tried to adapt for my fancy modern transducer was a fail. I have a more suitable one order from a sole proprietor in Vancouver, might be here this week. I learned that it is quite difficult to build up the boat when it's in the water, and slow. I dragged the boat up on land for the tear down.

I think I'm going to abandon the side load/ramp option and do it from the rear of the vehicle. The gross weight of the boat isn't bad, 80 lbs, but spread over 12 feet of length, the moments are tough on an old guy.

The electric motor was interesting. It operates via a remote, and it's strange steering a boat without a hand on the tiller. But it worked quite well for the reason I paid a bit of a premium for it. It uses gps to either "anchor" the boat" or preserve the heading your on despite wind and current. Once I get it talking to the sonar/chartplotter I should be able to enter way points on the chartplotter, define a course, and have the boat automagically follow it, allowing me to fish in relative peace.

I bought way too much battery I think. I ran the motor for a good two hours using the gps functions in pretty stout wind (15-20 MPH). Estimating from the time it took to recharge, I used somewhere between 1/50th and 1/70th of the capacity.

The sonar was great. I was at a small lake in a local state park that is reputed to not have any fish worth fishing for. I've never seen the density of fish that lake has even up in Ontario where the fish practically jump in the boat. Many were quite large. I'll have to see how my home lake in Minnesota compares, maybe the sonar is just that much better than my 16 year old one. Or maybe the local lake has that many fish and they are just difficult to catch because of high pressure. I did "fish" a little Monday afternoon, but it was only half-hearted while I mostly played around with the motor and electronics.

Running a mental simulation of being in the hideout, I'm guessing that pulling the boat out of the water at the cabin, breaking it down, loading everything in the back of the Pilot, throwing the boat on the roof and securing it, doing the whole process in reverse at the destination, then after fishing repeating the whole process in both directions could easily consume 4 hours. My fantasy of just darting off to another lake for a couple hours on a whim isn't realistic.

From a practical perspective there are two options: limit the number of excursions and mainly keep the boat on my home lake, or revisit the trailer option. The former is a decent option for year 1 of kayak fishing. The latter is probably the better long term solution.

I found what appears to be a better trailer option than the one I was considering--at half the cost. I'm very close to buying the "kit" and taking it to MN in boxes and putting it together there (and keeping it there). The fishing options around here in Illinois are fewer (and at the moment I don't have anywhere to keep the trailer). But that would mean sinking another $2500 for the trailer/adding the tow package to the Pilot. With the trailer at the hideout I just drive a little ways down the road to the USFS public ramp, walk back (10 mins), paddle the boat to the ramp (5mins), pull it on the trailer and secure, pull it to the destination and after fishing pull it on the trailer, put it back in my lake at the ramp, paddle home, then walk back to get the car. So maybe an hour versus 4, which will translate to a lot more exploring with the kayak. Have to decide if that option is worth $2500.

Scott 2
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by Scott 2 »

IlliniDave wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 7:17 am
So maybe an hour versus 4, which will translate to a lot more exploring with the kayak. Have to decide if that option is worth $2500.
Used trailer bought at the end of this season?

From the outside looking in - the extra $2500 to broaden your world looks very reasonable. Especially given a trailer holds some amount of value and can likely be used for other things.

In the interim, would unloading to a couple boxes or saw horses make logistics easier? I've never moved a boat. I am thinking from the perspective of raising the ground up, to meet your current flexibility.

IlliniDave
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by IlliniDave »

Scott 2 wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 7:56 am
Used trailer bought at the end of this season?

From the outside looking in - the extra $2500 to broaden your world looks very reasonable. Especially given a trailer holds some amount of value and can likely be used for other things.

In the interim, would unloading to a couple boxes or saw horses make logistics easier? I've never moved a boat. I am thinking from the perspective of raising the ground up, to meet your current flexibility.
I can't think of a way that using some sort of raised platform would help with loading the boat on top of the car, but they might help with offloading from the side. Something I'll have to think about. I thought about clamping a couple "stoppers" on my pvc rails so when it comes off from the side I can stop when the lower side of the boat gets about knee-high and rest it there while getting a better grip to lower it the rest of the way. The drawback is more parts to assemble and keep track of as they'd be a hindrance loading the boat unless they were removable.

I was thinking I might do nothing then keeping my eyes open up in MN as it's fairly common to see used trailers for sale up there in town. Most of the time though, it's a boat trailer combo for sale, and bigger trailers intended for 16'-18' proper boats. Outfitters all seem to use the larger trailers that carry up to 6 canoes and the trees (for lack of a better term) that stack three canoes on each side are too narrow for my yak. And I'd guess unless it was a folding business, they'd only be sold off when they are about useless. From what I hear 'yak fishing is exploding in popularity so the best fit solutions are only just coming on the market and used options seem few and far between. I got my boat used, and have nothing against that route, just a shortage of used equipment out there for sale. Ten years from now it might be different. But in ten years I'll be pushing 70 and probably looking to sell my kayak stuff soon thereafter, maybe selling the hideout and opting for a year round lake home with a real boat and accepting decreased overall mobility. The main reason I'm even thinking about spending $ on a trailer is that my window of opportunity for more rugged activity is shrinking.

shaz
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Re: A Journey of Mindfulness--the Remaking of Life in Midstream.

Post by shaz »

Congratulations on getting your kayak out on the water and getting it home again successfully even though it didn't go as smoothly as you had hoped.

If you are feeling very handy and can use a welder you might be able to build your own trailer for hauling over short/non-highway distances. People around here frequently base homemade trailers on an axle and truck bed pulled off a junked vehicle. Do I know how to do this myself? No. I know people do it because every time I ask to borrow a trailer, I am informed that I could build one myself using this method.

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