Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

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guitarplayer
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Re: Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

Post by guitarplayer »

Turns out the 'extrovert instructor' worked as a 'scrum master' for two years (got that job straight after the bootcamp, a quarter of which I am taking now) which made me revisit @zbigi's first post. It was good to meet a representative of this category irl.

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Viktor K
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Re: Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

Post by Viktor K »

What type of bootcamp? Are you shooting for web development? I've interviewed and applied pretty consistently over the last couple years and might have some insights to share. You asked what to put on your Github/ what projects to make, but it depends what industry you're targeting.

I find front-end work pretty therapeutic, the problems are often already solved by someone somewhere, or trivial enough to work through without having to worry about intermediate and advanced data structures. Backend work and software have different concerns. Pay is $60k-$100k starting out, depending on company size/finances. I wouldn't be surprised if it is saturated, but I'm not sure that it is. But even then, it just takes landing the first job.

When I started, I helped a few other people land their first job (2 linkedin connects, 2 irl friends). These days, I can get 3-4 interviews/week with no LinkedIn, just because my resume is out in some recruiting agency's database. For 2-3 yoe, $100k-$130k seems to be the average outside of FAANG at small to medium size companies.

guitarplayer
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Re: Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

Post by guitarplayer »

Hi @Viktor K! I still need to revisit your old journal to check out your trajectory again. Did you manage to read that book 'Empowering Yourself' that @Scott 2 linked to in the beginning of your first journal? Tried to find it but could not, but read some summaries on the internets.

For this topic:

Mind, I am UK based (but can move freely around the EU and EEA, so Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, too).

What I do is a Web Dev Essentials short course, it is a quarter of their software development bootcamp (omitting Java, javascript and how to sell your brand on linkedin). The idea behind that is to get people experience of both front- and back-end. I know from @zbigi that front-end is easier to get to and would be aiming for it. From the training I got the set up for working with code (good habits, '_' instead of ' ', pushing code to github at the end of session, working from terminal, automation in writing code (use that for LaTeX too)), HTML, CSS and Python. For the rest of the course I would have to pay extra and not willing to, unless scot gov is going to fund this which is possible.

The course runs in Feb and March, the result will be a mock website loosely based on https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/. I already have the bones of it and run it on my laptop as a local server. So getting to know some fundamentals of both front- and back-end.

I fell for the course because it was funded, but now I find that I enjoy it, dopamine rush when you get it right. And like you say the solutions are often already there.

I try to think strategically. I am also doing a BSc in Maths and Stats with 15 months to go (and enjoying it a great deal). I think one could creatively put something together from these modules. In all that I am also very much into getting skills that can be transplanted into other realms. Learning Web development and would be pretty transferable I recon. Like @zbigi said, lots of software development starts making sense when applied on a large scale, but web dev is everywhere and can be used also in other parts of life. Knowing how to build a website seems to me like knowing how to build any other entity. So I could build a website for my dad (which I am thinking of doing), or travel around and strike deals with hostels where I stay at their place and build them a website in exchange (seen that happening in my travels though maybe now it is different due to AirBNB etc).

I would think there are many wannabe's out there so in this sense it is saturated. I know I can do this work so it is a matter of landing the first job.

At the moment my idea is to finish this course in the end of March and then start playing numbers game with applications. Until then it's a bit tight because 40h/week job, full time uni and the bootcamp.

It's actually great that you write here because somehow I lost your PM from a while back with your advice re getting into this business. So yes, Github from the vantage point of web dev, and I appreciate your time!

zbigi
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Re: Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

Post by zbigi »

guitarplayer wrote:
Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:43 am
So I could build a website for my dad (which I am thinking of doing), or travel around and strike deals with hostels where I stay at their place and build them a website in exchange (seen that happening in my travels though maybe now it is different due to AirBNB etc).
As far as I understand, this area is pretty heavily commoditized already - there are companies which serve speciic niches (i.e. websites for barbershops, with appointments management, payment integration etc.) that can set up a functioning website with minimal effort. Without it, the dev work required is typically too time consuming and costly on per hour basis for small business to afford it. Many don't even want to pay for those commoditized services and just rely on their Facebook page as means of communication with customers.

Of coure, that's only a crude approximation of the state of this market, and there's probably some opportunities left there still. But, in general, everything Internet-based has a natural tendency for quick centralization and reaching an equilibrium where the market is served by a couple of giants with little room left for small players. That's probably the natural end game state for all markets, but in physical world there are frictions which don't exist in the Web and which give the little guys more of fighting chance.

guitarplayer
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Re: Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

Post by guitarplayer »

That's a valuable comment @zbigi, thanks. Still from the ERE point of view, it'd be good to know how to build a website, the same way it is good to know how to build a table. From the optimization point of view it doesn't make sense I know. Anecdotally, my dad had built storage wardrobes in our flat when I was a kid. Then the other day we had a workman, who reportedly remarked that if he were to build this way (sturdy wood, 'over-engineered') he'd be out of business. So my dad had probably overspent in terms of material and time, but I applaud him regardless.

Anyway, as is pretty typical (if annoying) of me, I look at (probably too) many options rather than concentrate on one thing. In that bootcamp one woman works in HR and says that her company 'is begging for software developers'. So once the skill is there, jobs are there.

DW and I also had a chat today, deciding we will tell at work that we will be on our way out in Summer or Autumn, so this should get me more focused.

ETA: Also, I feel I overtook the thread, sorry about it will stop now unless have something to add in the future as the post's title.

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Viktor K
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Re: Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

Post by Viktor K »

The course sounds like it will provide a good introduction. If during the course, you build 1 website at the end, I just want to say I built around 25 before I started applying and 5-10 of those were full stack. I got the fastest time on a short coding test (easier than easy leetcode algorithms), and I think that was due to familiarity with the syntax and basic algorithms and data structures. Nowadays I do my best to avoid take-home tests and/or coding tests when interviewing, since it is much easier for me to perform in a general behavior and technical interview.

In my portfolio, I have just 4-5 of my best full stack applications, and I included those only that had modern front end designs copied from other websites. The example you linked too is a good example of what I think can set apart one portfolio from another. You don’t need to design your portfolio websites, but build them using other websites as if those other websites are just design mock-ups. It is great real world front end practice.

For your target market, if that is Northern Europe, then peruse job descriptions and start noting what skills show up, which of those you have, and which you don’t. Find or create opportunities to learn, use, and ideally present those skills in your portfolio. The tech stacks can vary from location to location, and industry to industry, so I can’t say e.g. “Make sure you know React”. Make sure you know what is sought in your target market. If you have a similar skill (e.g. target market wants C#, you know Python), then it can be enough to have done the same thing with that skill (e.g. write server code) and to simply understand the similarities and differences, and be willing to learn it.

I’ve never gotten an interview or anything from a personal connection, so the numbers game is the only I know. For that, I make sure to apply daily and only to jobs posted in the last 24 hours. For the US remote work market at the time, that meant 3-5 applications/day, Monday-Friday for junior full stack roles. The numbers are about the same right now for mid level roles, and the numbers are less for more specific roles (e.g. front end only or Java developer).

macg
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Re: Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

Post by macg »

Viktor K wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:31 pm
I’ve never gotten an interview or anything from a personal connection, so the numbers game is the only I know. For that, I make sure to apply daily and only to jobs posted in the last 24 hours. For the US remote work market at the time, that meant 3-5 applications/day, Monday-Friday for junior full stack roles. The numbers are about the same right now for mid level roles, and the numbers are less for more specific roles (e.g. front end only or Java developer).
Interesting. I'm the opposite - I've never gotten a job from the numbers game, no matter how hard I ran it. I always end up getting an interview through a connection from a colleague/friend or friend-of-a-friend, and make or break based on that. To the extreme that when I got this current job 4 years back, I ended up deleting all LinkedIn and other online job sites, since it never provided any benefits for me. And still I have gotten at least 2 external job offers a year from word of mouth, without trying.

Don't get me wrong - do what @ViktorK says. Just also keep the doors open for connections, I think. Some methods work, and it's a craps game as to which and when some work and some don't...

alex123711
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Re: Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

Post by alex123711 »

What would be the best field to get into for future growth? e.g web development, cloud, data science etc?

Slevin
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Re: Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

Post by Slevin »

alex123711 wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 9:14 am
What would be the best field to get into for future growth? e.g web development, cloud, data science etc?
Doesn’t matter, everything is needed as long as you are training for development and not over specialized in just using one old dying language (hey but those jobs often pay 2-3x market because nobody wants to maintain your old COBOL written 30 years ago that is like deciphering ancient ruins of a dead civilization). Data science is the newest and least time tested, essentially often writing black box ML algorithms that do “magic”, so you often never know if things are working “correctly” or not. They also can just be people sorting and dealing with data at scale, which is time tested and will be needed as long as data is considered valuable and sell-able. Cloud is managing ops usually of the infrastructure and building the infrastructure yourself. This job will get you “on call” often , so don’t apply for this one of you want to avoid that. But basically everything in software is part of the overall system and all of it is inherently valuable and necessary for the software lifecycle. Best simple advice from me is to go somewhere where learning is prioritized and people are willing to help onboard you and teach you how to build applications to high standards with code reviews and teaching, etc.

white belt
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Re: Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

Post by white belt »

For those in the field, is the air starting to get sucked out of software development salaries as liquidity gets sucked out of financial markets? All of a sudden that stock compensation isn't nearly as valuable. We're probably still months away from pay cuts and layoffs, but I do wonder when we'll see a damper on the techno-optimism. It seems to be playing out a bit like an echo of the 2001 Dot Com Bubble.

Slevin
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Re: Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

Post by Slevin »

Not yet for me, it generally depends on who you work for and the % of your salary that is equity. With some stocks being down 75% YOY, and equity being >50% of the paycheck, pay is down like 40%. I've been given an average of 80k stonks per year (vesting over 4 years) since I started getting equity after my acquisition early 2021 years ago, and as of right now that equity is worth about 80kish instead of 160k. So yeah, it hurts some. I'm still getting 150kish cash per year, so it doesn't hurt that much, and all of our earnings numbers and outlook are in the green, and with how the industry is looking, we have a lot of market share to gain from some of the big crashes like NFLX, FB, and AMZN.
Last edited by Slevin on Thu May 19, 2022 8:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

bostonimproper
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Re: Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

Post by bostonimproper »

Hiring freezes are starting to roll out across the industry. I’m hearing a lot of “expect layoffs in June” so my guess is that things will get worse before they get better.

I didn’t experience the dotcom bust as an adult but this seems to me somewhat different. Yeah, some companies will fold, but the industry as a whole will probably be fine. Long term I think it’s really going to depend company by company. NFLX seems in trouble, but AMZN, MSFT, AAPL are in no particular danger. Places that got their funding round in the last year or two have a while before they need to fly or fall off a cliff.

To me this feels like a mostly healthy over correction after an exuberant last couple years. The next year or two might be difficult for job seekers though.

mathiverse
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Re: Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

Post by mathiverse »

Slevin wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 12:57 am
Not yet for me, it generally depends on who you work for and the % of your salary that is equity. With NFLX being down 75% YOY, and equity being >50% of the paycheck, pay is down like 40%.
Meta is a better example that has a compensation structure similar to what you said and has dropped in price a lot. And your overall point stands as there are many other examples too.

Netflix is a bad example because you can choose to take all of your compensation as a cash salary and the stock portion is limited in size to a small percentage of your compensation even if you do ask for partial stock compensation.

Slevin
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Re: Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

Post by Slevin »

Yeah, removed thanks! I should’ve double checked with levels.fyi before posting.

white belt
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Re: Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

Post by white belt »

Thanks for the information everyone. If I start to hear people in tech panic, I'll know we are at a market bottom.

zbigi
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Re: Is Software Development/ Programming Oversaturated?

Post by zbigi »

white belt wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 5:18 pm
Thanks for the information everyone. If I start to hear people in tech panic, I'll know we are at a market bottom.
FWIW, non-tech software engineering market doesn't seem to be afftected at all, at least in Europe. The recruiters are still flooding people with jobs on a daily basis. The rates seem higher than ever FWIW, which is nice considering inflation.

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