Objectivity is an Asset

Favorite quotations, etc.
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jennypenny
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Objectivity is an Asset

Post by jennypenny »

plantingtheseed wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 6:09 am
This will be my last post.

[...]

The world is changing again. I guess wisdom really does come from experience. Because knowing when to hold or knowing when to fold fairly correctly comes from having made a lot of mistakes.

In the next world, early retirement will not be practical. In the brief illusory sub 2% (real ~4%) inflation world yes. We've somehow managed to pull it off for good 7 decades or so. But not in the 7.9% world.


I don't think I would enjoy retiring early in a world full of wage slaves. It would be a world filled with unhappy servers at restaurants. Businesses would be overflowing with disgruntled workers that do not care about their jobs.

World would be full of anger, resentment and despair. A world of half truths, where bullies thrive and reason gives away. People couldn't careless about right or wrong. And People wouldn't have hope.


I would much prefer to experience retirement in a world where people looked at you with a smile, took pride in their work, would dream of their future and were happy to be around in each other's company.

A utopia you say? This was the 70's and the 80's. Just about everyone was middle class. Millionaires were rare. We've had the same problems, but people were happier and life was better.


Good luck in your journey.
I don't mean to pick on plantingtheseed, but their post struck a nerve with me.

While I know the pandemic has been very difficult to deal with over the last couple of years, and there are global problems we can't seem to wrap our arms around, the world is not going to hell in a hand basket. To compare today to the 70s or 80s, or certainly earlier than that, is to ignore the progress we've made.

Some easy examples:
-- I know there's a lot of nuke talk right now, but it's doesn't compare to the 80s when we lived under the almost daily threat of total nuclear annihilation.
-- Women and minorities live in a more equitable world (despite the lingering issues).
-- Poverty and famine rates have dropped significantly.
-- College enrollment rates have risen.
-- Many diseases have been addressed through new treatments and vaccines.
-- Crime has plummeted and it's easier to get out of abusive relationships (for both women and children).


Am I saying that things are great? Absolutely not. And I'm certainly not minimizing what's happening in Ukraine (we have family in Poland and are watching very carefully). But the 70s and 80s were no picnic. I have vague memories from my childhood of race and war riots that dwarfed the BLM riots of a couple of years ago. Planes were hijacked and/or fell out of the sky much more often than now. Cancer was almost always terminal. The iron curtain was still up. China was still closed off to the rest of the world. etc etc

We can't just focus on the negative. I'm not someone who hates the press or screams 'fake news' all the time, but I do blame the media for stoking people's fear constantly and treating every news item as an existential threat. People are having a hard enough time dealing with everything that's happened related to covid over the last two years, we shouldn't add to that stress level by overreacting to everything. Learning how to objectively deal with and navigate the issues before us is an essential skill -- we shouldn't view objective analysis as amoral or immoral.

Again, I'm not implying we -- as individuals or a group -- do nothing or ride the sidelines. What I'm saying is that you can't know what to do to help a situation without being able to analyze it objectively first. You also need to be able to keep reactions in check ... overreacting to everything is hard on us as individuals and it makes solving problems as a group almost impossible. We need to make sure we take a step back sometimes to help keep our perspective, and we need to be mindful of our negativity bias to avoid despair.
Last edited by jennypenny on Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

daylen
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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by daylen »

I have posting here for a little over six years, and I am not really any closer to retirement. What I have gained from the forum is a certain contentment and confidence that if I wanted to stash up, I could. Using the strategy to near minimize expenses while I work a variety of what many consider menial jobs that deepened my subjectivity which in turn strengthens my facing to the ugly objectivity. Even if the world turns ugly, a deep acceptance of our own finite lives may provide just the anchoring needed to keep things on some kind of track. The crisis of this turning is supposedly nearing an end, so perhaps the fourth turning model of American history will break for better or worse.

In Buddhism, suffering is considered fundamental as meditation [or concentration variety] can open us up to the great heights of positive experience while allowing us the courage to look around at where these heights are forgone (i.e. nearly everywhere). The basic cycle is:

Suffering -> Which distorts behavior and perception and therefore leads to.. Suboptimal Objective Response -> Perhaps creating a new or worse.. Objective Problem Situation -> Triggers.. Subjective States of Thought and Emotion -> Which are not experienced completely, and therefore come full circle to.. Suffering

This came from Shinzen's "The Science of Enlightenment" where evidence is summed to support the cycle being breakable. That is, pain is universal but our suffering of that pain is optional given skill in concentration. I see ERE as a system for making a little room for deepened subjectivity that can test our skills of concentration and thus elevate our contentment in a variety of objective situations. Not far from stoicism, huh? Perhaps this crisis is just the accelerant we need to unite the best meditations of the east with the best science of the west?

As for a hopeful narrative concerning our future, many regions are nearing a 10% tipping point in integral consciousness(+) to become the leading edge of culture in place of postmodernism. While this will not lead to utopia, it will sure be a major transition in our history if we survive long enough to write the books on it.

(+) That is, yellow + turquoise which are interested in designing solutions for the whole spiral. With green reaching the former tipping point in the 90's. And every other color before that inducing a fundamental change in the cultural fabric at around 10% as far as I am aware.

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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by jacob »

Things that are the same:
Back in 2000 when I discovered peak oil (that was 2 years after the Campbell and Laherrere came out in Scientific American and revived the 1973 oil crisis fears) there were many (myself included) that figured that this would [soon be] the end of world as we knew it. There was even a fancy acronym for it. Some people cashed out their retirement savings and bought gold coins. Others sold their house and moved to New Zealand. Lots of appropriate technology from the 1970s was dug out from the drawer or rediscovered.
The exact same behavior is now being repeated with climate change except it's called collapse instead of TEOTWAWKI. I wasn't alive in 1973 but it wouldn't surprise me that the sentiments and corresponding actions were repeated back then. For my part, I didn't have any savings to turn into gold, but I certainly made some life changing decisions that eventually resulted in ERE. Fear is a potent motivator ... so best applied rationally.

Things that may be different:
Even ten years ago, a news junkie would have to keep 10 browser tabs open, one for each newspaper, and press reload to see if the homepage had changed which maybe happened once a day. Now the media landscape is saturated with op-eds and narratives insofar that they can find a home somewhere in the market of human nervous system. Front pages are continuously updated based on trending news... and it's not hard for an algorithm to train both the audience and the journalists who are feeding them to write a certain type of *shocking* articles.

I've noticed on facebook that one can write either for objective analysis or for maximum likes or anger. Facebook itself will promote the latter. They don't have "detailed analysis"-pieces floating to the top based on word count. Everything is based on "reactions" and "ad-revenue". Thus if you're more social (sociocentric) or in need of a paycheck than you satisfied by an existence of being accurate but poor and ignored, the choice is so simple it's practically made for you.

This basically means that the media-scape is drifting towards "tabloid" style sensationalism. As such it's a kind of threat-multiplier to the social construct of humanity. Everybody gets more riled up than usual, which basically creates a kind of mental tunnel vision, and then everybody is supplied with a tailored narrative. Further, with media being ubiquitous, everybody has an opinion these days. Previously people who wanted to be interested in something, let's say the war in Yugoslavia, had to have a newspaper subscription (or several if they wanted to be really informed). Only a minority of wonks would do that. Whereas now, people think themselves "smart" because [in their words] "they read all the news on facebook". When I finally understood what they meant by this, my head almost exploded.

In conclusion, I think we're seeing the dark side of postmodernism. Search engines and social media are essentially a pomo technology that have removed the focus from the objective to focusing on how popular the subjective is. If you google something, the results are not ranked by objective truth but rather ranked algorithmically according to how many people agree with subjective truths. Social media is the same. There's been some crude backtracking to avoid the worst side-effects using modernist approaches like "fact-checking" the "fake news", but that's not very effective anymore. Of course my position here smells of elitism, but I do think the pendulum needs to swing back a bit.

Dream of Freedom
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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by Dream of Freedom »

It is easy to underestimate the progress we've made. It is all the worse because much of the progress was a double-edged sword. The internet allows someone to learn almost anything quickly and cheaply as well as find likeminded people for niche groups at a level not possible before. It also introduces problems that are hard to address. Other examples are the progress China has made has given us another rivel and economic growth is bad for the environment.

Opinion news is so sensationalized partly because there is so much competition and older media is struggling to survive. It is no longer the realm of a handful of tv networks and local newspapers. Commentary is everywhere so attention is hard to get.

We should keep in mind too that how much better things are has a lot to do with where you are in the world and whether you would have been shunned earlier due to identity.

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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by guitarplayer »

daylen wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:15 am
That is, pain is universal but our suffering of that pain is optional given skill in concentration.
First read that long ago in this wonderful book which I recommend to every running enthusiast, especially on the N spectrum.

Tyler9000
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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by Tyler9000 »

Beyond letting our current pessimism blind us to progress, people also have a knack for placing their own fears on a pedestal to the point where their parents or grandparents would just chuckle. Not to pick on @plantingtheseed (nobody is immune), but this juxtaposition made me scratch my head:
"In the next world, early retirement will not be practical. In the brief illusory sub 2% (real ~4%) inflation world yes. We've somehow managed to pull it off for good 7 decades or so. But not in the 7.9% world."
...
"I would much prefer to experience retirement in a world where people looked at you with a smile, took pride in their work, would dream of their future and were happy to be around in each other's company. A utopia you say? This was the 70's and the 80's."
So early retirement is no longer practical now that inflation is 7.9%, but the 70's and 80's where inflation was as high as 14%(!) was a utopia? Objectively speaking, that just doesn't add up.

I totally agree with many of the observations about how much of the media industry has changed for the absolute worst in terms of prioritizing profitable clickbait and manipulative narratives. So as we evaluate the world around us, I think it's more important than ever to tune out the noise. Pay attention to not only the negatives but also the positives. Look at things in proper historical context compared to what other resilient people overcame. Stop consuming toxic garbage under any facade. Control the things you can. Make wise decisions. Be positive, move forward, and choose personal happiness.

IMHO, the people who will ultimately survive no matter what happens aren't the ones who run for the hills or just give up, but those who kick the doomer mindset to the curb and start thinking constructively.

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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by Humanofearth »

@JennyPenny

We now have technology to share information globally, instantly, for next to nothing, creating a network for humanity to learn nearly anything, anywhere, anytime. You can see India developing as they contribute more to this network, many other countries will keep developing in this manner as the world now offers equal opportunity for whoever is energetic and focused enough to seize the opportunity; race, gender, height, all irrelevant as avatars who’s identities are confirmed with cryptography replace showing your biological features.

We now have cryptography to protect property and communications and this changes the logic of violence away from the state. Nukes and the strongest militaries cannot destroy a single btc beyond killing the knowledge of the private key, which can be diversified against with geographically distributed multi-sig. Defense of property is most important rather than magnitude of violence. This change is difficult, as all transition is, for many people. They see the fiat currencies devaluing as governments print the value to 0, but the value of any money will trend towards the difficulty to counterfeit it over time. Scarce assets (btc, grassfed beef, prime real estate, gold) will keep inflating in value, very cheap goods (noodles, soybean oil, crickets) will increase slower. There is a life raft, but for those who refuse to learn, things will keep worsening relative to expectations as the promised governments made aren’t going to be worth what they believed they were.

Even so, obesity keeps increasing, people aren’t hungry like before. Literacy keeps increasing and everyone is hopping on this magical global network. Technology driven deflation may lead to the commodity backed fiats preserving purchasing power as autonomous taxi networks, automated food production, 3d printing, etc make living virtually free and most work obsolete. What a challenge it will be for many humans to let go of the old way. But a focus on health, family, nature, and consciously designing a happy life is on the horizon.

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

I think that when a sober man looks at the world honestly and assesses what it is, he finds the world is very different than what he is being told about by others.

A sober person who, in an effort to go along to get along, earnestly wants to believe what he is being told by others, is overwhelmed by cognitive dissonance.

People are unable to reconcile what they are being told with what they see with their own lying eyes, and it is the cognitive dissonance that is breaking them.

A useful heuristic, if overly simplistic and reductionist but necessary in the interest of time, is to assume everything “they” say is a lie. Maybe they can later prove to you that your eyes were actually lying.

Trust thyself: every heart vibrates to that iron string. Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.

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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

From "Nordic Ideology: A Metamodern Guide to Politics" by Hanzi Freinacht:
Rationality can only be applied to factual truths claims; it can establish how well-reasoned a particular line of action is in regards to the objective it is to address. How well-reasoned the objective itself may or may not be, however, can only be established by:
1. Weighing the subjective truth claims about its perceived value with
2. the intersubjective truth claimes about its justness.
Hence, what's rational to do is simply senseless to ask without first having established what's beautiful and just. And in turn, what's beautiful and just depends upon our narratives about the world, which in turn are the result of how we relate to existence as such.
Empiricism brings the boundary of verification, or 3rd party perspective on inter-subjectivity, but it does not address the reality of subjectivity and its contribution to our semi-consciously co-created narrative. What is the likelihood the future will include masses of unhappy wage slaves? How will I feel about living in a future that includes masses of unhappy wage slaves? Whatever your calculations in reference to the first question, there is clearly an attractor forming in the social narrative we are all creating that inter-subjectively yearns for a future where fewer people experience the negative states associated with the concept of "wage slave." If this weren't the case, the widely shared belief that slavery is wrong would not be suffixed upon the relatively neutral concept of "wage." IOW, we can (for the most part) agree that a future in which more people were engaged in more meaningful, self-directed work would be "better" than the opposite. Objections on the basis of what is practical are generally bound to be correct in the short-run, but are unlikely to over-ride the strength of a postive narrative attractor in the long run.

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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by ducknald_don »

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:15 am
A useful heuristic, if overly simplistic and reductionist but necessary in the interest of time, is to assume everything “they” say is a lie. Maybe they can later prove to you that your eyes were actually lying.
The trouble is you can really go off the deep end with that line of thinking. All of a sudden you are making choices that really aren't in yours or your close ones interests.

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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by jacob »

Here's another fun thought.

It may be that by setting up feedback loops between eyeballs and tailored sensationalized news, wherein revenue flows to where it generates the most anger, humanity has inadvertently created an emergent global intelligence that does not have our best interest in mind (it doesn't care).

We tend to talk about AI or skynet attaining self-awareness as if it is one-thing. This hellish system we've created is definitely not one-thing and it's not self-aware to the point that it'll pass a Turing test. HOWEVER ... it might in fact be able to create its own news by riling humans up to become extra trigger happy thus propagating itself by creating more angry-making news, and so on.

In other words, the system will have a survival instinct. In algorithmic trading, this is called "momentum ignition" and it is illegal. However, it's not illegal when coupling online posting with real world bad consequences to generate more online posting.

There has been a lot of talk about connecting everybody with the internet would create a global consciousness. There has been little talk about how that such a consciousness might not necessarily be a good one (for humanity).

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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by daylen »

jacob wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:48 am
There has been a lot of talk about connecting everybody with the internet would create a global consciousness. There has been little talk about how that such a consciousness might not necessarily be a good one (for humanity).
Using the body as a metaphor for civilization, the internet sorta represents the initial formation of a default mode network or a "normal" waking consciousness. At risk of extending the metaphor too far.. that might imply that humanity is acting as an adolescent body trying to figure out its own identity without any peers.

On the bright side, perhaps our fascination with life beyond earth will motivate us to develop premature compassion somehow, or maybe once we put ourselves on the edge of suicidal nihilism we will use that survival instinct to rediscover our resting states of consciousness and integrate them into a star trek alpha flow state.

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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

“jacob” wrote: HOWEVER ... it might in fact be able to create its own news by riling humans up to become extra trigger happy thus propagating itself by creating more angry-making news, and so on.
Eh, if this were true, why isn’t the proliferation of internet porn creating more babies, or even more in-person sex? I may be wrong, but I think the lack of actual physical proximity is a pretty huge barrier to mob mentality in terms of co-ordinated behavior.

Also, Internet 2.0-3.0 will once again change the dynamic.

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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:18 am
Eh, if this were true, why isn’t the proliferation of internet porn creating more babies, or even more in-person sex?
Because in the aggregate porn is a substitute good for in-person sex rather than a complementary good. A better analogy might be whether violent computer games create more real world violence. However, my point was whether the reporting of real world violence causes people to act (independently) to create more real world violence. A kind of Say's Law for propaganda.

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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

ducknald_don wrote:
Sun Mar 20, 2022 11:50 am
The trouble is you can really go off the deep end with that line of thinking. All of a sudden you are making choices that really aren't in yours or your close ones interests.
I am certain the interests of my close ones and myself are important to me, and not at all important to the organization.

It is entirely possible to operate within, and derive benefits from, a system or organization without having a shred of belief in the organization mission statement.

After a while you can work on points for style. Like the club tie and a firm handshake. A certain look in the eye and an easy smile.

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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote: However, my point was whether the reporting of real world violence causes people to act (independently) to create more real world violence. A kind of Say's Law for propaganda.
I agree with your notion that something like a "survival instinct" or other levels of intelligence could develop through feedback loops, but I don't believe humans are that capable of independent action in clear opposition to self-interest. What I mostly meant to convey by my analogy is that angry thoughts or talk, like sperm, is cheap. Actually engaging in reproductive sex or violence in the real environment is much more expensive. And, although the internet may increase flows of anger, it also greatly reduces actual social interaction in time and place. For instance, 10 people could all be sitting in a cafe together, simultaneously becoming riled up by the same news item, while being utterly unaware that they are within spitting distance of each other. Of course, this could easily change if location and sentiment were sychronized and communicated.

In "The Listening Society", Freinacht suggests that the very real and growing possibility that realities like this could develop is one reason why government is going to have to become increasingly more intrusive in personal life. For instance, he suggests that universal psychological therapy would likely pay dividends in overall social harmony. IOW, in a world where every complete whack-case is given a megaphone, it will become a trade-off between limiting the freedom of access to megaphones for the average only semi-whack-case citizen vs. making some attempt to intervene in the psychological development of pathologies within "dividuals" or "transvidual" nodes of consciousness.

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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:04 am
I agree with your notion that something like a "survival instinct" or other levels of intelligence could develop through feedback loops, but I don't believe humans are that capable of independent action in clear opposition to self-interest.
One of the questions that sometimes comes up somewhat into a conversation is "Jacob, do you believe people are stupid?" Yeah, I guess I do (and I'm slightly afraid to say it!). I do believe some humans will act to benefit themselves even it means talking other people into acting against their own self-interest (they care about themselves but not others). I also think there are some people who will act in opposition to their own self-interest if it lets them hurt others (they don't care about neither themselves not others, just a stupid impulse that feels momentarily good). I think mob behavior makes these impulses worse because many will simply follow the herd without questioning or out of fear of going against the stream if they do question.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_M._ ... %22_(1976)

That's another way of saying that a lot of action turns out to be "dependent action in unclear opposition to self-interest". This is how people volunteer for wars or riots they know little about ... or how financial bubbles get started.

We might have a bubble in "subjectivity" as well. This bubble may be the 4th turning crisis, to be resolved when it pops.

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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by Riggerjack »

A utopia you say? This was the 70's and the 80's. Just about everyone was middle class. Millionaires were rare. We've had the same problems, but people were happier and life was better.
Well, as one who was there, this was certainly not my experience. Or even one I saw. I'm not saying it wasn't like that, but it certainly wasn't everyone's experience.
Things that may be different:
Even ten years ago, a news junkie would have to keep 10 browser tabs open...

In conclusion, I think we're seeing the dark side of postmodernism. Search engines and social media are essentially a pomo technology that have removed the focus from the objective to focusing on how popular the subjective is. If you google something, the results are not ranked by objective truth but rather ranked algorithmically according to how many people agree with subjective truths. Social media is the same. There's been some crude backtracking to avoid the worst side-effects using modernist approaches like "fact-checking" the "fake news", but that's not very effective anymore. Of course my position here smells of elitism, but I do think the pendulum needs to swing back a bit.
I consume a huge amount of history podcasts. Ancient and modern history. And one would think that I would agree with the above statement. NEWS is worse than it has ever been.

But the funny thing is, it's not. At all.

Journalism has always been the telling of a story, relating the experience to an audience, in terms they could understand. Anyone who has been at an event and read about it afterwards understands the difference. One does not come close to being the equal of the other. The bigger the event, the bigger the difference; if for no other reason than breadth of experience vs space to describe it.

As our culture became more urban, so did journalism. Journalists are chosen based on their ability to relate to their audience. So the focus of journalism became sharply G ladder related in the Michael O. Church model. It became more relatable to an audience with a more narrowly focused set of experiences. As journalists became more specialized in their experiences, so too did their audiences become more urban/cosmopolitan and less generally informed, causing further journalistic specialization. (reread the Church piece, how much of journalism, as practiced today, even acknowledges that there is anything other than G class, poverty, or super powered elite villains? Just how much reality can be fit into that worldview? Turns out, not much.)

While at the same time, one of the G ladder signals of quality was to be well versed in world events. A signal that could be generated by going out into the world (expensive and exclusive) or imitated by consuming journalism. This is the true nature of journalism. It isn't there to help one understand the world, it's there to help one know what signal to give at cocktail parties to show other consumers of journalism, that one is well read. Part of the quality people who thinks right.

As radio then TV came online, journalism started getting curated, by more powerful forces. Fewer outlets meant that a narrower narrative could be crafted. Many people my age think of this as a good time, back when we all "knew" what the story was. Or as I think of it, back when nobody knew what the story was, but we all knew what to think about the pieces we heard.

Go back to those old New Yorker think pieces, or Atlantic monthly. Then read Wikipedia, or a few books on the subject. How accurate was the journalism in representing the reality on the ground? Maybe that was a fluke, and you should try it again, different time/subject. Keep it up until the pattern is clear.

This was before fake news was a thing, so I guess you will need your own term for the difference.
I've noticed on facebook that one can write either for objective analysis or for maximum likes or anger. Facebook itself will promote the latter. They don't have "detailed analysis"-pieces floating to the top based on word count. Everything is based on "reactions" and "ad-revenue". Thus if you're more social (sociocentric) or in need of a paycheck than you satisfied by an existence of being accurate but poor and ignored, the choice is so simple it's practically made for you.
I'm talking about "detailed analysis pieces" as much as viral emotive pieces. They are all there to help you signal intelligence to an audience only vaguely capable of, or interested in distinguishing intelligence from nonsense. And to train you to make the same choice, based on equally spurious evidence. And feel good about your choice.

Myself, I gave up news 6 years ago, and I find myself far happier for it. My worldview is very different than it was then. I can find out far more about the world doing my own research than tuning into short attention span propaganda theater. And I have a much firmer grasp on how much I do not, and cannot know.
"Jacob, do you believe people are stupid?" Yeah, I guess I do
Whereas I think you are occupying a box seat in a theater, watching the crowd milling about, trying to find their seats. You can see the layout of seats, they can't. You can see how people navigate toward their seats, and often get lost, often give poor advice, and the most lost being most vocal about seating arrangements. From your perspective, it is easy to see the confused, and ineffective behavior. Additionally, you have been trained to see it, by other box seat holders, who all have their own pet theories of crowd behavior. Each trying to impress the next with a new crowd pattern they think they have found.

But you don't go down into the crowd, to find that the seat row markers are only visible from above. You don't see that many tickets go to the same seat number and some tickets have no matching seat. You don't see the spilled drinks across the paths, to cause people to take indirect routes. You don't see the people who lost their tickets, trying to adapt/adopt/or steal another ticket.

So of course people look stupid. Of course people act in ways that are directly against their own interests, for your perspective. They don't have your perspective, and have entirely different information to work from.

But if you were to break with tradition, rather than watch the crowd, instead look at theater design, you would see that the theater is bigger than you thought, and there are many levels above. Places where people watch the box seat holders mill about, with the same smugness that the box seat holders have for general admissions.

After studying that level for a bit, you may find that one level above has similar information asymmetry to the box seats, as box seat holders over GA. And you may want to get to that level. That's only natural, go where the information is, and surely one can learn what one does not yet know.

But I think the problem is the theater. The theater was laid out to cause the confusion, highlight it, and broadcast it as a signal of superiority to the level above. The theater was built with box seats in mind. Box seats were crafted to highlight the differences in behavior at each level, but minimize the observational difference in information sets. The purpose of the theater is to help people sort themselves into a hierarchy of seating, each level having one below, showing confusion to reinforce the sense of superiority of seat holders at each level.

In other words, your position on stupid people was crafted for you, before you ever thought about finding a seat. And once you took that seat, all the evidence available to you reinforced your position. Everyone around you sees what you see. It's obvious, as it should be.

The only way I know of to address this false sense of superiority is to move away from your seat, and gain different experiences. However, your seat was made to be comfortable, and your view crafted for aesthetic and emotional comfort. Those in box seats around you reinforce the patterns you see, and reassure you that your seat comes with status and the right perspective. From here, all the signals are genuine and true... :roll:

So I'm not surprised you still think people are stupid, but I am a little disappointed.



A useful heuristic, if overly simplistic and reductionist but necessary in the interest of time, is to assume everything “they” say is a lie.
I don't think this is a very useful heuristic, at all. If I were to use it, I would search only in the areas "they" say I shouldn't. From a Bayesian perspective, I would be artificially restricting my dataset, based on someone else's perspective. What are the odds that "they" are simply wrong about everything? The viewpoint I would build with that heuristic is merely oppositional. "They want me to believe X, so the truth is in X not space".

This would cause me to hold a worldview with datapoints that are mutually exclusive to "They". I would become oppositional to "They".

Whereas I believe that if what I know is more accurate than what "They" know, this is a lever. I can use what I know in ways "They" don't understand to be possible. I don't need to convince, cajole, or ridicule "They or they" that I am right, I need to demonstrate that I am right.

If I can't, then I need to learn more. If I can, "They" will adopt the minimum change necessary to include the perspective I have demonstrated. And pretend that they knew it all along. Often by denying that what I did was ever different from what "they knew".

Any thought or action that is oppositional, is wasted energy, that could have been used to learn something useful. Pointing out something wrong, engages defense mechanisms; pointing out something right, but previously unconsidered, has the possibility of a new result. Each repetition of the pattern exponentially increases the chances of a new result.

It's hard to find something right, while searching for something wrong.
After a while you can work on points for style. Like the club tie and a firm handshake. A certain look in the eye and an easy smile.
It's hard to formulate new games, when one's thinking is shaped by winning the old game. Simply look at the the games proposed by winners of the old games, to see this is true. Implementing new strategies using old tactics is wise (strategic misdirection and sound tactics). But mastering old tactics is unlikely to result in developing a new strategy.

So my questions to you, MI, are "What are you trying to do?" and "How is what you are doing helping you?"

And "Where did you come up with the AEIC concept? It is just about perfect for conveying the international layer of Capitalism in action, in one term." :geek:

theanimal
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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by theanimal »

@RJ- Aren't you essentially making the case for determinism? That people don't have a strong sense of agency and are set on predetermined paths by the overarching society.

Isn't this site and the people that are here a testament to how wrong that viewpoint is?

guitarplayer
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Re: Objectivity is an Asset

Post by guitarplayer »

@Riggerjack, excellent analogy of the theater, thank you. In my eyes it resembles the Plato's cave analogy with the difference being that the theater audience is not born into the theater.

I see what you are aiming at with the sense of superiority coming from being at a box seat. I would risk saying that this is a natural tendency for (members of) groups that become polarized. There was quite a bit of research which I am not be able to cite off the top of my hat about conflict resolution between groups, turns out 'doing things together' is the way to go. For example, if someone holds a prejudice towards white people, by doing stuff with them (socializing, building something), white people cease being 'them' and become 'us'. This is 'moving away from your seat' part of your analogy. The risk there is of losing sight of one's original seat which is a more favourable one. To what extent are we willing to become double agents in the theater of life?

Of course you think the problem if the theater, after all you are (I believe) an engineer! If the theater is the social fabric of society, a trivial solution is to stop engaging with society (going to the theater), retreat to the top of a mountain, become a hermit somewhere. If the theater is the makeup of how we think with its inherent biases, a trivial solution is to stop thinking and caring about the rest of the world.

These are easy ways out as long as the theater is decoupled the rest of the world. The question is whether it is, which I think it isn't.

'Stupid' is a strong word semantically and can be used purposefully to make a point or gather attention. I think @jacob this is part of your communication style that is appealing to some people. Unlike @Riggerjack, I am not disappointed by this remark insofar @jacob considers himself part of 'people' and hence stupid at times, which I am sure he does same way I do. After all stupid is necessary to smart up, not being stupid at some point would take away all the fun.

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