Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
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guitarplayer
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Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

Post by guitarplayer »

I am reading 'How not to Diet' after having read ' How not to Die'. Having practiced it for some time now and reaping benefits, I might be biased but I think Whole-Food Plant-Based (Salt Oil Sugar free) diet would be a good example of emergent movement design, maybe especially suited for SD green. I think it could suit Blue poorly as they focus on tradition and food can be a very large part of tradition.

I think that the way it is presented by Dr Greger, the system can be read almost like peak-oil management system in disguise the way people talk about ERE as one.

He is making it pretty simple for people not to make stupid mistakes, like for example with his app where he explicitly specifies the need of taking vit B and what foods to eat at minimum.

Why-vectors:

Having (owning) - health, money (it's cheap), mental capacity, good looks
Doing - cooking!, something good for the planet, community
Being - well you can argue some identity acquired with it, if needed to push people forward, being on this beautiful world for some x extra years in good shape!
Seeing - change (in one's body, senses, perception, capacity).

I know that diets are often contested and are such a common topic so could be difficult to argue for this / there would be opposition, but then there was opposition to ERE or FIRE too.

Ethical standards for emergent movement design:

1. Actionable on an individual level, carrot vectors as above, all the ingredients are there present.
2. Would for sure work for everybody if people used it, and with so many positive externalities I will not even start mentioning them.
3. There is a continuous transition, can be done in degrees with tangible benefits to a corresponding degree
4. People are still be okay halfway there, e.g. avoiding diabetes.
Last edited by guitarplayer on Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

white belt
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Re: Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

Post by white belt »

Although in general I’m on board with whole food plant based as a more sustainable and healthy solution compared to SAD, salt and sugar free sounds very much like a first world solution to a first world problem. Have you ever done 12 hours of hard manual labor in the heat without consuming any salt or sugar?

For sedentary first world populations, I can see the value of such a diet. However, in a low energy intensity future, being sedentary will be a luxury (as it is now for those in the developing world).
Last edited by white belt on Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

guitarplayer
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Re: Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

Post by guitarplayer »

Yes I agree with you. It is a bit like FIRE in the sense that one could ask 'have you ever done FIRE without earning a first world salary'.

Of course no model will cover it all, but I think if the first world gets its act together, it will spill over to tackling other problems. For example, there is research showing how eating added oil and salt can make people less sharp mentally which in turn makes it harder for them to tackle complex problems.

I am still reading about this, but the more I read the more amazed I am at how holistic this approach might be (in the permaculture kind of way where many problems are tackled by many solutions simultaneously and then each solution solves multiple problems at once).

I would stop short of trying to convert anyone because at the moment I am obviously biased + diet is an emotionally loaded topic I feel.

Stahlmann
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Re: Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

Post by Stahlmann »

How do you provide taste in this diet? Salt, oil and sugar transfer it.

guitarplayer
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Re: Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

Post by guitarplayer »

Herbs, spices; all the food actually tastes anyway, just that commonly the taste buds are totally overridden by sugar, salt and fat.

Some researchers hypothesise that there are taste receptors detecting 'fat' as well.

Taste buds have a lifespan of about 10 days before they die off and new ones are put in place, so give it a 2 week try.

Blackjack
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Re: Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

Post by Blackjack »

I've eaten this way (for about a month before quitting, easy change since I'm already plant based and eat very few processed foods other than some oils and pasta), and find myself very skeptical of its benefits. For one, as mentioned already its quite low in energy. For myself, lack of fats in this diet translated to poor skin health, and poor energy levels. For me it was just a shift into even higher carbohydrate eating, which means the volume I had to eat for similar calories went up a lot, especially as the calorie density dropped, and now my body had to make up for fats with nothing but carbs (which it already gets a lot of)

Being without added salt in the hot weather being active is also just a nightmare, as you need to consume salts (i.e. electrolytes) to rehydrate the body. First world problems and all that, but without added salt exhaustion is incredibly quick to start and very difficult to kick and return to whatever activity you are doing.

Compared to eating close to this, except with some oil usage, I think it is definitely a downgrade in terms of bodily utility. I understand that some people may handle the WFPB diet better than the one with some oils, and I think they should definitely do what makes them feel better. The science says that oil usage is somewhat bad for your heart / cardiovascular health, and that is a fine tradeoff for me.

In terms of using this as a weight loss tool, it operates in terms of 2 restrictions mainly; removal of calorie dense foods by removing many fat sources (so if you eat the same volume of food, it will have less calories), as well as increasing the fiber intake of the individual, which will increase fullness, and some of the carbohydrate intake in terms of calories is actually straight fiber, which will be uptaken less or not at all by the body.

There is also some argument for feeding the beneficial gut biomes with fiber, and changing the gut flora to be more healthy. I think we don't understand that part of the argument as it pertains to health and weight super super well though.

What do you want to discuss in terms of an emergent movement though? I feel like it is a rather 1 dimensional sell like most diets (health), as well as a bit from the vegan movement as well (don't eat animals who have feelings, do this because it's better for the planet). I think that it would thus have an sell vector to orange (be the healthiest i can be / healthiest of everyone) as well as some sell to some green aspects (planetary bounds, ethics towards eating animals)

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Bankai
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Re: Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

Post by Bankai »

@Blackjack: interesting, I see using oils as a downgrade compared to getting fats from whole foods (nuts and seeds are to oils what fruits are to fruit juices). Looking at my cronometer stats for last week, I'm getting an average of 71g of fats a day (c. 640 kcal) of which the vast majority comes from nuts and seeds. That's fine-tuning though, even with some oil and salt an otherwise non-processed vegan diet is still way ahead of almost anything else. And some oil usage is really hard to replace (i.e. we're not using non-stick pots so a tablespoon for cooking is acceptable to me).

sky
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Re: Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

Post by sky »

You could add Ethical Standard:

5. Grow your own food on what used to be your lawn.

Blackjack
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Re: Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

Post by Blackjack »

@bankai yeah my oil usage is generally just in cooking, and since I start most of my cooking with onion + garlic + other stuff, it’s basically impossible to avoid using the oil. Other than that, it makes its way into some sauces for me. Still eat large amounts of my fats as cashews turned into a sauce / parmesan replacement / whatever, or avocados either whole, or as a sauce. I’d like to transition the cashews to sunflower seeds (for sustainability reasons, almost all cashews are grown in water poor regions but need tons of water to grow) , as they *should* be able to be directly substituted, but I still haven’t been able to get the texture correct with sunflower seeds (may be a soaking issue, or a blending issue).

My design space these days is to be able to create nearly anything I want from either shelf stable raw-ish ingredients (or freezable ingredients) and fresh veggies. This then allows for me to purchase ingredients in bulk or from bulk stores for waste minimizing, and also be able to restock when prices are low, and then be able to create a variety of complex meals off the cuff at pretty much any time. I think it is one of the best parts of a plant based diet to need to be able to create flavor profiles based on spices (or herbs) and veggies explicitly, and ups skill level of any type of cooking by a tremendous degree. Very “ERE” centered in terms of skilling up to lower cost while raising lifestyle standard.

guitarplayer
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Re: Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

Post by guitarplayer »

Blackjack wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:31 pm
and now my body had to make up for fats with nothing but carbs (which it already gets a lot of)
Nuts and seeds go a long way and are more nutrition packed than oils in pure form though.
Blackjack wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:31 pm
Being without added salt in the hot weather being active is also just a nightmare, as you need to consume salts (i.e. electrolytes) to rehydrate the body. First world problems and all that, but without added salt exhaustion is incredibly quick to start and very difficult to kick and return to whatever activity you are doing.
I am a marathon runner, ran seven of them and know what you are talking about. With that being said, sodium is present in foods naturally and once you eat large volume (because low calorie density), you will get some of it from food itself. If taking more salt is functionally necessary (like after running a marathon), go for it.
Blackjack wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:31 pm
The science says that oil usage is somewhat bad for your heart / cardiovascular health, and that is a fine tradeoff for me.
This is okay by Ethical Standard 4, and a minor deviation from otherwise superb food choices.
Blackjack wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:31 pm
In terms of using this as a weight loss tool, it operates in terms of 2 restrictions mainly; removal of calorie dense foods by removing many fat sources (so if you eat the same volume of food, it will have less calories), as well as increasing the fiber intake of the individual, which will increase fullness, and some of the carbohydrate intake in terms of calories is actually straight fiber, which will be uptaken less or not at all by the body.

There is also some argument for feeding the beneficial gut biomes with fiber, and changing the gut flora to be more healthy. I think we don't understand that part of the argument as it pertains to health and weight super super well though.
Yes there are thousands of scientific articles that are not particularly promoted anywhere because no money can conceivably be made off of them, so not easy to get a good grip.
Blackjack wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:31 pm
What do you want to discuss in terms of an emergent movement though? I feel like it is a rather 1 dimensional sell like most diets (health), as well as a bit from the vegan movement as well (don't eat animals who have feelings, do this because it's better for the planet). I think that it would thus have an sell vector to orange (be the healthiest i can be / healthiest of everyone) as well as some sell to some green aspects (planetary bounds, ethics towards eating animals)
Yes starting this post, I was hesitant to talk about 'dieting' as it is such a common subject. This particular diet I think would work well for green, and there was some discussion on the forum on helping green move forward. I talked about it with some greens at work and they seem receptive.

In terms of it being an emergent movement, well it ticks all the boxes. 'Good for the planet' is a cheesy term, but if applied en masse it would systematically solve a ton of problems on many level
- physical (low level of diseases, like you mentioned with maybe some tweaks to adapt to individual circumstances)
- mental (stay sharp, put the hedonic craving system in its right place)
- societal (looking good and feeling good which contributed to social through feedback loops)
- public health
- economic (not buying crap, less production of crap)
- 'planet' (space used for growing plants for humans rather than plants for animals, or raising animals)
- would counteract climate change
- ERE (what you mentioned in the other post)
- sure there is more.
Blackjack wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:29 pm
@bankai yeah my oil usage is generally just in cooking, and since I start most of my cooking with onion + garlic + other stuff, it’s basically impossible to avoid using the oil.
@Blackjack and @bankai, a few days ago cooking at work I first chopped onions, garlic and ginger and threw them on a pan. Then poured a 3/4 cup of boiling water into a cup and stirred in 1/2 tsp yeast extract, 2 tbsp balsamic vinegar, black pepper, curry powder and some herbs* (don't remember now exactly, 'mixed herbs' would work). Once all was mixed, add it in three 1/4 cup portions to your onions etc. while they glaze on high heat. The effect is a really good base for throwing in other veggies, grains or legumes.

* I did add a teaspoon of boullion (half of it is salt?) because I was cooking for the general public that eats salt all the time, but this one teaspoon of boullion was for about 10 people.

Everyone ate their food, I got compliments for my cooking.

Next time (today?) I will try the same for myself but without the boullion and with a tbsp of peanut butter and I anticipate a blast.
sky wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:17 pm
You could add Ethical Standard:

5. Grow your own food on what used to be your lawn.
Yup this is just so ERE, but also permaculture.

sky
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Re: Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

Post by sky »

6. Reduce plastic packaging waste

guitarplayer
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Re: Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

Post by guitarplayer »

This true, too, @sky.

Writing about the ethical standards in the OP I had in mind more the Ethical standards for emergent movement design @jacob was hinting at in his presentation. I made a correction in the original post.

J_
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Re: Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

Post by J_ »

Guitarplayer: Just like Jacobs "Volksmarching" I think way of eating is a very good implementation of an emergent movement design. I endorse all your points and those of sky.

DW and I are years practicing this way of eating and it has brought us excellent health and stamina. DW has become a very good and creative cook with only plant-based ingredients and spices. (Greger's books are inspiring, convincing and enlightening).

Alifelongme
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Re: Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

Post by Alifelongme »

I have been experimenting with my diet for about 3 years now after a routine blood test showed high cholesterol level. I was determined not to take pills. I even bought cholesterol testing device to track the cholesterol changes in response to diet.

Results:

- ANY oil from the bottle, no matter how “organic” or “cold pressed”, leads to LDL (“bad” cholesterol) increases. Eating olives, fresh avocados, nuts,and seeds increase HDL (“good” cholesterol) and decreases LDL.

- ANY animal food is followed by LDL increase almost immediately and resolves in about a week after going back to strict vegan, no oil diet.

- Eating ANY bread does the same.

- Added sugar increases triglycerides which in turn increases the total cholesterol. Drinking freshly made juice from beets plus various berries takes care of sugar cravings and doesn’t raise glucose or cholesterol levels.

- chocolate is one of the worst offenders being basically sweetened processed fat.

- Salt - I have no opinion on aside from bad effect on kidney and heart. I use more spices and try to limit salt but do not eliminate it altogether.

YMMV :)

J_
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Re: Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

Post by J_ »

@Alifelongme: Your experiences about food corroborate the impacts of plant based food to good health, thanks.

Humanofearth
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Re: Whole-Food Plant-Based Diet (Salt Oil Sugar free) as an example of emergent movement design

Post by Humanofearth »

I feel so much better with meat. I tried vegan and every diet. Vegetables and mushrooms, especially fermented, feel great for me. Salt is useful too. Sugar and oil, not so much.

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