ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
7Wannabe5
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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Blackjack wrote: don’t make a dominator hierarchy, greenies don’t like these
Who does like a dominator hierarchy?....Oh, yeah, duh...never mind.

Otherwise, thumbs up on your post!

Actually, speaking of "dominator hierarchies", I happened upon this by way of note in Smil's new book on "Growth" causing me to take a peek at some Rational Optimist site he was dissing, and I found this linked there, but it seems very Yellow and relevant to topic at hand.

https://samoburja.com/gft/
What drives social change throughout history and the present? What are the origins of institutional health or sclerosis? My answer is that a small number of functional institutions founded by exceptional individuals form the core of society. These institutions are imperfectly imitated by the rest of society, multiplying their effect. The original versions outperform their imitators, and are responsible for the creation and renewal of society and all the good things that come with it—whether we think of technology, wealth, or the preservation of a society’s values. Over time, functional institutions decay. As the landscape of founders and institutions changes, so does the landscape of society.

This answer forms the basis of the lens through which I analyze current and historical events, affairs, and figures. But though it may be intuitively compelling, fully substantiating such a framework is no small task. This manuscript, titled Great Founder Theory, is my substantiation. It explains all of the models that are key to understanding how great founders shape society through the generations, covering such topics as strategy, power, knowledge, social technology, and more.

Miss Lonelyhearts
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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by Miss Lonelyhearts »

Could someone identify a lot of yellow books and authors?

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »


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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

Blackjack wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:43 pm
So if we are playing pure SD here, I think the pure green is a level that has transcended and included the orange level. So we can talk to greens in orange talk and they will grok what we are saying, as they have been there before, though we have to perfectly carrot it in a way that is more community oriented and in a way that is helping others actualize as well. I think we should entice on the transitional feelings of orange to green, as this is is what I think is most enticing to them about ERE.
(my bold)

This would be the business executive/professional with a midlife crisis realizing that there's more to life than reaching the corporate corner office having stepped on many a people while climbing the career ladder.

I think Gerthood from Wheaton/Klassen-Koop in https://www.amazon.com/Building-Better- ... 07XWRXZW9/ speaks to this group. Also see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEohCmuHoTQ where I try to curb my lack of enthusiasm for this financial model. You see the same issue in Green-Purple with its pursuit of New Age workshops in spiritual healing and enlightened minimalism, where "organizers" make a small living as life-coaches, etc. basically paying for each other's materials while primarily relying on "outside money" and "new blood" to keep the subsector going. This pretty much puts it at the hobby level for most except a few "rockstars" who can make a living selling ebooks, etc.

However, there is also green with a red tint that has a rather disinformed view of orange(*). In that case orange talk will backfire. They have never been there and see orange as evil incarnate. It's the difference between "I used to be ... but now see the error of my ways" and "I'll never go there... because it's bad/exploitative/oppressive on every level". Even appropriate use of orange is a no go. People may deliberately try to live without money or jump through all kinds of hoops to dissociate from it, insisting on bartering, favors, or alternative methods. Ditto goes for individual efforts... to the point that "nothing can be done without community". This type is more militant.

(*) The difference between the two is kennen vs wissen. The orange-to-green knows or kenns orange from personal experience. The other type knows-about or wisses green sometimes believing itself turquoise.

Having a red tone means that there's a lot of energy. The question is how to channel it w/o pissing people off or leaving it self-directed towards self-destruction.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Grain of salt, because I might not know what the heck I am talking about, but two novels I think might be Yellow would be the classic “Howard’s End” by Forster and the very new and recommended “No One Is Talking About This.”

In both books the female protagonists are Green or Orange/Green and in some level of conflict with men and/or aspects of society that are Orange/Blue. In both novels tragic events which simultaneously bring out lower and higher functioning in various characters result in eventual transition towards Yellow for protagonist.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by Blackjack »

jacob wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:52 am
However, there is also green with a red tint that has a rather disinformed view of orange(*). In that case orange talk will backfire. They have never been there and see orange as evil incarnate. It's the difference between "I used to be ... but now see the error of my ways" and "I'll never go there... because it's bad/exploitative/oppressive on every level". Even appropriate use of orange is a no go. People may deliberately try to live without money or jump through all kinds of hoops to dissociate from it, insisting on bartering, favors, or alternative methods. Ditto goes for individual efforts... to the point that "nothing can be done without community". This type is more militant.

Having a red tone means that there's a lot of energy. The question is how to channel it w/o pissing people off or leaving it self-directed towards self-destruction.
I don't think I understand the archetype of green with a hint of red. I feel like the socio-equality orientation of green and the ego-centric orientation of red are too at odds for me to understand the amalgamation of the green red? Can you help me clear that up?

I'm trying to make an infographic to make all the flavors of green we need to account for a bit clearer... and I've done the stuff I think I understand, but might be useful to get some reviews and additional eyes on it (and help me with the bits that I don't understand).

— SD Green Descriptors —
———————————————
Green - hint Purple: ??? Seems like Green / purple is too at odds for there to be much of a crossover here.
———————————————
Green - hint Red: Wants relational / equal / social group …. Except me? Maybe the idea of “first among equals”, or something like this? I’m not clear on this one.
———————————————
Green - hint Blue:
Wants relative and communal structures built in hierarchical / authoritarian structures. Believes something like “I could change / fix X problem if everyone would just let me actually fix it and gave me the resources”
———————————————
Green - hint Orange:
Like true green, but probably still with deep tendrils of orange. Believes in the bottom left quadrant, but still pretty heavily driven by right quadrant. Believes something like “I want to work to develop a community, and i’m gonna make the absolute best community because I’m gonna work so hard at it”. Might still spawn Dominator hierarchies due to orange tendencies instead of Self actualization hierarchies.
———————————————
Green (true): https://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/green/
———————————————
Green - hint Yellow: These must be the people on the edge of the yellow transformation. Moving towards systems theory, vision logic, how to see the others in the spiral where they are at and actually meet them where they are at. I think you need to be here to be an effective leader in win-win strategies, that can both move forwards a group (if the group has a collective will / work to do), as well as the individuals themselves (towards self actualization, i.e. up the spiral), if they can just get the sales pitch right.
———————————————
Green - hint Turquoise: ??? (is it important to fill this out?)
———————————————

Then the second thing i want to hit on is a map of what entails a "community" here. You are implying some greens are unable to start moving towards a goal / etc / without joining a community, so I think we should define some ideas of what entails a community. Like this board is some semblance of a community (though it might be considered on the weak side compared to cohabitating eco communities). I want to start it on just 1 axis for now (weak to strong), then maybe we can look at if there is an effective / easy / lower maintenance way to implement a stronger community (maybe this board is good enough? Maybe ERE needs something stronger?) and add more axes as necessary.

Community Chart

Weakest
\————————/
|
Neighbors you see a few times a year and small talk with
|
Coworkers at very corporate job
|
Twitch ( gives viewers feeling of community where none exists? Very weird)
|
Large web forum ( platform capitalism site: Reddit, Twitter)
|
Small Web Forum with zealous moderator
|
Small Web forum with chill moderator
|
Small Facebook group with group chat and postings
|
Discord group with group chat, minimal moderator
|
Coworkers in a co-op / startup
|
Weekly or biweekly support group (in person or on zoom)
|
Community via in person meetings (maybe zoom ok?) 3+ times per week with different flavors but each flavor run by a “teacher” / master
|
In person meetings / activities 5+ times per week with many “gurus” but those people are more just for guidance
|
Subgroup of the above who now cohabitate and spend much of the free time together / talk every day about community subjects, etc
|
Cohabiting Eco communities with similar goals and a large plot of land but private residences
|
Cohabitating communities with similar goals, private sleeping/ etc / but shared meals , food, chores , etc
|
Cohabitating communities with similar goals and non private residences (commune, monastery, barracks)
|
Cohabitating Community that will drink Koolaid from the leader
|
\————————/
Strongest

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I think maybe Green with hint of Red might be somebody who says “I am tolerant of everything EXCEPT intolerance!”, but bangs harder on the “EXCEPT intolerance!” At Yellow, one becomes more accepting of intolerance in the sense of recognizing that it’s a phase attribute which serves a purpose at that phase.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by xmj »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:56 am
I think maybe Green with hint of Red might be somebody who says “I am tolerant of everything EXCEPT intolerance!”, but bangs harder on the “EXCEPT intolerance!” At Yellow, one becomes more accepting of intolerance in the sense of recognizing that it’s a phase attribute which serves a purpose at that phase.
Not entirely unlike the SSC Post I can tolerate anything except the outgroup.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@xmj:

Right. In the last section, he calls himself out for likely writing somewhat from the Gray (libertarian end of liberal Blue) perspective, but maybe he is really writing from Yellow?

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

Blackjack wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:57 am
———————————————
Green - hint Purple: ??? Seems like Green / purple is too at odds for there to be much of a crossover here.
———————————————
Green - hint Red: Wants relational / equal / social group …. Except me? Maybe the idea of “first among equals”, or something like this? I’m not clear on this one.
———————————————
Green - hint Turquoise: ??? (is it important to fill this out?)
———————————————
This is how I see it: Obviously work in progress.

Green with Purple tropes: New Age Hippie. Believes in crystal powers, natural healing (probably antivaxxer), and synchronicity. Attends yoga or meditation classes and talks about their chakras. Hangs around in nature (not doing much) and wears funny clothes. Distinguishes from true Purple by selectively borrowing from other religions rather than the local folklore (ghosts, dragonfly messengers from the afterlife, ...)

Green with Red tropes: Social Justice Warrior. Key accomplishment is identity politics or forming tribes based on identity in order to fight the power of the other tribes. Unlike true Red which is more of a "Nobody tells me what to do, I do what I want and damn the consequences.", GwR uses Green concepts to set up conflicts to get that good community feeling of being part of something greater fighting for justice.

Green with Turquoise tropes: Hive Mind. Believes they have "transcended the ego to unlock the infinite wisdom of their soul", whereas in reality they've merely sacrificed their ego to groupthink. Deeply opposed to any suggestion of hierarchy or classification: "Every human is a beautiful and unique soul" that must be seen and listened to. Namaste! Unlike true Turquoise which is able to consider the whole system including the ugly parts without getting affronted.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

Blackjack wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:57 am
Then the second thing i want to hit on is a map of what entails a "community" here. You are implying some greens are unable to start moving towards a goal / etc / without joining a community, so I think we should define some ideas of what entails a community. Like this board is some semblance of a community (though it might be considered on the weak side compared to cohabitating eco communities). I want to start it on just 1 axis for now (weak to strong), then maybe we can look at if there is an effective / easy / lower maintenance way to implement a stronger community (maybe this board is good enough? Maybe ERE needs something stronger?) and add more axes as necessary.
I think this is a good idea. Like housing, community exists on a scale. There may even be a kind of Wheaton law that requires community to be built incrementally? When I tried forming the Learning Tribes (monthly IRL meetings) a couple of years ago, there was little interest, perhaps because the forum sense of community was not strong enough.

When socially-oriented people talk about "need to form community", it's definitely in the second half of your chart. Regular meetings on zoom is the absolute minimum.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by Blackjack »

First iteration of the Green Origin Tropes - theoretically I think we need carrot vectors to map to the tropes, which then might need us to understand what the collapsed failure mode of ERE is for one of those tropes. Then i can add them (the collapsed failure mode view, as well as the carrot vector) to this little flowchart. Then it might have to get more complicated, as some of the collapsed views may overlap / etc.

Image

I think Pure Green, green purple, maybe green turquoise would see some form of Zero-waste or waste minimization, as its very important to the health of the earth; mixed with being closer to nature (and starting communal hobbies involving people and nature that disincentivize consumption and monetary usage). Things I think they wouldn't grok: optimization of spending when the money is on something like food from the farmers market, locally made X made with sustainable materials, maybe using a web of goals to minimize impact while also minimizing "sacrifice". Hmmm, I need more time and more meetings with greenies (who aren't me) to try to truly grok their mindsets. Unfortunately covid has really messed with the operating of most of the cool green communities I was a part of around here.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

Blackjack wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:08 am
First iteration of the Green Origin Tropes - theoretically I think we need carrot vectors to map to the tropes, which then might need us to understand what the collapsed failure mode of ERE is for one of those tropes. Then i can add them (the collapsed failure mode view, as well as the carrot vector) to this little flowchart. Then it might have to get more complicated, as some of the collapsed views may overlap / etc.
Nice chart! I think the collapsed failure mode is [the regression to] the trope. For example, the failure-mode of orange is standard FIRE ... then "failing again", FI ... then fatFI/getting rich ... and ultimately Dave Ramsey and Suze Orman as the regression touches down on the mainstream.

Thus the trope can indicate not only the regression but also a progression (where people are coming from) going forward. For example GwR may translate into what I've heard called "squad wealth" in which a group of friends make a pact to take care of each other financially as well. It'll probably involve bitcoin since other currencies are evil. Stuff like that.

All this may be obvious. I'm just restating it for my own clarity. But in short, the respective tropes are key to the respective entry points.
Blackjack wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:08 am
I think Pure Green, green purple, maybe green turquoise would see some form of Zero-waste or waste minimization, as its very important to the health of the earth; mixed with being closer to nature (and starting communal hobbies involving people and nature that disincentivize consumption and monetary usage). Things I think they wouldn't grok: optimization of spending when the money is on something like food from the farmers market, locally made X made with sustainable materials, maybe using a web of goals to minimize impact while also minimizing "sacrifice".
I agree.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:18 pm
Image
We might as well include a blue slice as well. I think prepping/survivalism sits more on the blue side, at least by origin (which may be US centric).

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by grundomatic »

With the last post being from March, I'm guessing there is some of this going on:
jacob wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:54 am
The solution is for the overachiever to deliberate play a different game: Rather than always presenting the correct answer, hold back and let someone else find it.
Well, I'll play. If nothing else I'm probably closer to a BLUE origin than the YELLOW destination, so maybe that's helpful.

So how to push BLUE vertically through the spiral to arrive at YELLOW and something resembling ERE1? BLUE is dedicated to The Way. The specifics obviously vary across different countries, cultures, and religions. What does not vary is dedication to The Way, usually written down in The Book. With (true) BLUE it is not open to interpretation, so in my opinion the best one can hope for is to point to The Book and encourage the modes of living or behaving or being that are most appropriate. Reading in the FIRE sphere, it seems like once people move past money there is a rediscovery of the benefits of different practices like fasting, meditation, and not being an asshole that ancient religions have long prescribed. So if we are talking healthy religious BLUE, there seems to be good "ingredients" to work with. If the BLUE is dedication to a cause where the leaders are actually RED or ORANGE and using The Way to benefit themselves, this may be harder. There will be instances of BLUE that fall in between. One hang up is that BLUE only listens to official leadership, so an outsider pointing to The Book and telling BLUE how to live The Way won't be well-received. Guilt is a control mechanism in BLUE, so maybe that can be used somehow. I'm thinking the best situation is "converting" a BLUE/orange leader that is open to The Book being interpreted beyond "as written", and that person can then pass the lesson along to their BLUE subordinates.

I'm working on some examples, but I will go ahead and post this part, lest this linger in draft land forever.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by grundomatic »

I might be slowly getting this. From the Stoa2 presentation, "Design plan with aligned what-"impacts" but different "whys" and "hows" resolving individual discomforts and inspiring people according to where they are." So the plan is ERE, the impacts are improved life quality, lower resource use, resilience, etc., and we are looking for the whys and hows of BLUE. I'll use the format from above, though as I'm starting to write, I'm realizing that I'm guessing how these vMemes might relate to components of ERE, rather than identifying a true starting point. I've been thinking about these for a while, so I'm still going to share even if it's totally made up. Force myself to post these ideas, even if it wasn't the assignment at all. So I might not be getting it after all. These examples are US Protestant BLUE. We can do US Nationalist BLUE later.

Blue w/ Red:

"Holier-than-thou"--points to their success at the world's material game to illustrate their spiritual superiority to non-believers.

True Blue:

"Fruitful Multiplier"--reduced resource use per person means resources for more people in God's Kingdom. Trading financial capital for social capital in the form of a big family, and (blue) cultural capital by following Old Testament directives literally.

"Modern Day Apostle"--literally sells all (or most) of their possessions to figuratively follow Jesus. With few material needs, has time to focus on ministry and/or service-oriented volunteer work.

Blue w/ Orange:

"Earn to Tithe"--FIRE but keeps on working to donate their money.

"Self-Supported Missionary"--FIREs to then live abroad as a missionary, or potentially pay their own salary as a minister/pastor in a domestic community that couldn't otherwise support one--very rural, inner-city, etc.

Blue w/ Green:

"Christian Freegan"--DW came home one day with a tract on this someone gave her. I'm sure people around here know what a freegan is--just insert a Blue "why" instead of a Green one.

Blue w/ Yellow:

"ERE/Spiral Missionary"--similar to "Self-supported Missionary" above, but I imagine this person teaching Orange business management and Green permaculture alongside sharing their Blue spirituality. Serving God, people, and the Spiral itself. Very practical in their ministry.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by berrytwo »

Cool Color Wheaton Level Map
jacob wrote:
Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:03 am
I'd be very interested to know any comments you might have on the "green map project" in this thread: viewtopic.php?t=12146
Immersed in the SD book now (just finished Green chapter), I thought now would be as good a time as ever to respond/ revive the tread. Much of what I have read in this thread resonates with me and my understanding of Green. Minimalism, community, eco-stuff, spirituality, mindfulness, zero waste all are great failure modes. The green tropes and carrot vectors were spot on by BlackJack. I interpret your OG question to be basically 'what map do cool-colored people use to move up the spiral?' I agree that Wheaton level's written on the wiki page are orange/ warm leaning.

I took the WL table from the wiki sight and translated it to what my own interpretation of what I have seen/experienced from a cool-toned perspective here in the PNW. In general, I see cool levels reading the pulse of the room to find what others deem as right and wrong and develop spending habits based on changing values/ morality. Influence evolves in larger concentric circles to encompass all beings (eventually incorporating your own voice somewhere along the way) As they move up levels/ spiral they incorporate more points of view (from what my tribe or family thinks, to my church, to my society, broadening to the community, all beings.


Scarcity
At the low end of spending efficiency, consumers operate from a perspective of scarcity. Scarcity is characterized by two things: needs/wants exceeding income and extreme market dependency. Lack of awareness results in paying for stuff several times over through the use of high-interest consumer debt. The inefficiency of spending makes it very difficult to build wealth unless incomes are significantly above the median.

Cool-color translation: Buy your image for belonging. 'There is also an element of duty to this and you go into debt for The Cause.


Accumulation
The accumulation mindset stresses playing the financial game as most people know it. Avoid high-interest debt. Build up the credit score. Set aside some savings for an emergency fund. Use a budget to control spending. Economists, financial planners, radio, TV, newspapers, and advice columns cover this demographic.

Cool Level: You notice Others and learn changing rules. You have a job that fits the duty and social expectations of your community. Full-time work is expected, and trajectory is 9-5 'till 65, because that is what your savings rate can afford and that's what everyone does. Money accumulation is a by-product and you can mostly afford the things that activities/ physical things that support your image. Saves up to get higher ticket items that support image, but will not go into debt for them.

Exponential Growth
This kind of person is what most people think of as a smart consumer. They always buy stuff on sale. Research the best deals. Most normal people envy this level of efficiency but won't strive for it due to an incompatible mindset. On the financial side, there is an emphasis on increasing earnings and investing to take advantage of "the magic of compound interest." This stage is covered by the majority and biggest personal finance blogs. It also sets the tone for the fatFIRE part of the FIRE movement.

Cool: I agree this phase is where it starts to look different for Warm/Cool. Buying in excess is now seen as cringe and you may see an earlier than Warm move towards thrift stores. Money/ interest are dirty words, but you may begin to see the connection between money and time and see the potential for optimizing money so that you can spend more time doing the things you want/ care about. If you haven't already, you start to develop a strong alignment with a cause that specifically entails you consuming less: the environment, spirituality, minimalism, vegetarianism. You may test out different spiritual practices/ communities/ classes. You are more picky about how much you spend on the activities/ things you buy, but you also don't want to be left out. You ride your bike to work on warm days for the eco-cred from your co-workers (if they are green.) You like to see that your savings has increased by a lot but you are now not sure what to do with it. Capitalism is quite repulsive to Green so you are not sure where to put money, it is in a savings account or maybe a CD. Your capital is not growing quite as rapidly as Orange guy who has put it all in index funds, but you may have cut spending more than warm-leaning people at this WL.

Embracing Efficiency
The average person thinks of this smarter consumer as a cheapskate. Realizes that used stuff works as well as new, and the deals are even better. This kind of person is the "millionaire next door" that drives a car that is 10 years old... and replaces it with a used car of similar age when that breaks down. (Normal people don't aspire to this.) Refuses to take on any new debt and pays off existing loans aggressively, including the mortgage. Knows a bunch of frugality tricks. Uses budgets to prioritize spending. This level defines the center of gravity of the FIRE movement as well as setting the tone for most of the leanFIRE side of the movement.

Cool: Passion/ spiritual connection has impacted spending profoundly, moral beef with new things, almost exclusively used things. Has had at least one Plotkin-esque nature experience that lights fire of anti-consumption even more. Becomes more creative with housing options, and probably lives with roommates/ in a community/ with a Partner in a tiny house. Finds little use for car at this point. Could do without or have a 10-year-old car like Orange. You might need to start finding people that are in different crowds than you were before, or start being creative with how to sell picnics instead of going out to eat/ figure out how to volunteer at the festival your friends are going to, or get in for free.

This is where you learn more about and regularly use community resources that are anti-consumption-esque (Free [insert city name] Facebook/ Craigslist, local clothing swaps, book/ tool libraries, volunteer orgs. etc.)

If someone tells you about an eco-conscious VTI index fund, you may or may not take them up on learning about it, but begin to think more about how you can increase your savings rate in a way that feels "aligned."

Feels more optionality with job and may quit to find a job more aligned with ethics/ more fulfilling/ for flexible to do things you are passionate about. Early Retirement is still not totally on the radar/ poopooed because that feels noninclusive/ slightly too capitalistic, although you are enjoying working less.



Optimization
Breaking through the limitations of consumerism requires a different attitude altogether. The salaried person, in particular, may thus be "stuck" on this level arguing that earning more money is the better approach due to comparative advantage. Two things distinguish optimization from the previous levels: a producer mindset and low waste. This is really a generalization of the principles underlying the frugal practices usually presented as a list of tips. While others may DIY as a hobby, at this level building and fixing stuff is a way of life, making low expenses inevitable. Use of financial capital is Pareto-efficient. Uses budgets and bucket-systems as a retirement planning tool.

Cool: Groks and accepts the premise of ERE 1, and molds it to their own ethical framework. It must filter through a lens of how are my actions/ ERE bettering the world/ others / is fair for others (Radical Simplicity:Jim Merkle). A regular connection to a spiritual practice that connects to anti-consumption, most likely in a spiritual group of some kind. Strong ability to evaluate one's own practices and begins to develop the create stage of learning. DIY ect. Creative work/ housing options WWoofing, van life. Begin optimizing time/ money for The Cause.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@berrytwo:

I think it might be a West Coast vs East Coast vs. West Coast & East Coast Meeting in Midwest University town thing, but I am having a bit of a difficult time placing the individuals in my social circle who I think of as being Green on your map. I think mostly this is due to the emphasis on spirituality. For instance, one of my sisters, who currently resides in NYC, was a queer-punk activist/artist in the 90s and then became an anti- death penalty activist public defender in the aughts, but she thought that even the Unitarian Universalist service that we attended on Christmas eve was too woo. Maybe there is another dimension that kind of runs from hard Punk to soft Woo that those who are Green may inhabit, depending upon whether they are pulling more on Red or Purple? Or a similar hard edgy to soft rounded spectrum might be Hacker-> Hipster -> Hippie. Of course, I may also be somewhat conflating Green and Orange/Yellow, dunno.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by chenda »

There's a lot of evidence that stricter religious denominations that demand more from their members are much better at retaining and growing their membership that more liberal ones, contrary to what one might assume.

7Wannabe5
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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@chenda:

That's true in a lot of realms. For instance, stricter more demanding women are almost certainly better at retaining/"growing" their boyfriends/husbands. That's why I have to re-read "Princess Bitch: The Sassy Guide to Relationships, Power, and Success" on a semi-annual basis. IOW, it's kind of like "Why would a congregant tithe for the church roofing fund if they can get the salvation for free?" = "Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free?"

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