ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

The "other" ERE. Societal aspects of the ERE philosophy. Emergent change-making, scale-effects,...
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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:15 pm
I of course can’t speak for ERE, but I always personally favored the Spartan “leave the defective baby on the hillside” approach.

You see Simba, when we die, our bodies become….grass, and the antelope eat the grass….
I could see this.

Trigger-warning since this will rile up a severe Blue reaction because of the abortion issue in the US and southern Europe and I do not wish to restart a culture war on this issue: But Denmark and a few other northern European countries have almost if not completely "eliminated" Down's Syndrome which is a heritable condition which is testable during pregnancy, and most choose abortion. As such the causative gene strains are dying out. People born with DS are not shunned and are in fact being included in society in every way possible, but their DNA is not by virtue of the state "raising awareness" and giving the option to everybody---it's part of standard screening and most parents choose to abort. Because of this, DK's specific birthrate of DS children is 0.03% whereas in the US it is 0.16% or 5-6 times higher. In the US this would require, pardon the expression as I insult several additional religions, goring some really sacred cows, whereas in DK those cows are long dead. Thus it basically comes down to what form "the sacred" takes ... and that form evolves. And that is a slow process.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... me/616928/

The Spartan way would of course be the Red way of doing it. This was also the Viking way. It was considered an act of mercy. It wasn't that [Red] people were cold and heartless. It was just a very different value set from the Blue or Blue-tinted Red or Orange. Tears were spilled but it was believed to be the right (good) solution to a difficult problem.

In any case, my point is that we should absolutely not presume that our sacred beliefs will be the same 200 years from now just as ours are not those of our ancestors (<- a Green statement). However, some sacred beliefs are definitely better at solving the problems created by a given environment (and we're rapidly changing ours, thanks Orange) than others (<- a Yellow statement).

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

“jacob” wrote: Really?! That seems like trying to externalize motivation via rewards ... and in other settings that tends to destroy internal motivation.
True. I just completed a very short course on Classroom Management Theory. Unsurprisingly, the 4 models of classroom management roughly align to the spiral dynamics levels/colors. The 4 (or 5) models would be Authoritative Management, Behavior Modification Management, Instructional Management, and Social/Emotional Management (5th model being level at which you are able to masterfully integrate strategies from all 4 models.) The simple school economy offering prizes which I described would obviously be a Behavior Modification strategy, and it is well recognized (at all levels beyond BM) that this has limited utility best reserved for promoting very simple impulse control in the moment or routine context. For example, the teacher walks around the room and every child who has followed instructions for arranging materials receives a ticket. Still, this level of management promotes more self-authority than the Authoritative Management model in which the teacher controls (but also nurtures; “tough love” is another name for this style)for absolute adherence to compliance with directive.

Instructional Management is roughly high Orange, because it proceeds from the Enlightenment ideal that humans want to learn, and if they are goofing off it’s likely because the instructor is not making the material or the presentation of the material or method of approach interesting enough. The focus is on engaging the learner and increased respect/autonomy for learner.

Social/Emotional model is obviously Green. As you noted, this is the level where the teaching of social skills and self-awareness is integrated in curriculum.

I have a personal preference for being centered in Instructional Management (largely because my ENTP personality type is best suited to production creative curriculum), but my actual level is low Yellow, because I do see the value of the full spectrum of strategies in various contexts.

However, I would like to make the point that IME, context does not reside in individual humans. For instance, very often a kid from a very rough background (every other word out of his mouth is mother-fucker and he just scribbled a gang symbol across another kid’s Covid mask) will respond marvelously to strategies from Social/Emotional model. You don’t have to make a kid fully submit to your authority before you can talk to him about naming and regulating his emotions.
“jacob” wrote: ERE is mainly a transition game for operating in an Orange/Green world w/o failing [individually] as it goes towards Yellow. Not sure what the Turquoise answer is. This is what the ERE2 forum seeks to find out.
Is the Yellow perspective synonymous with Degrowth perspective? Does Degrowth demand acceptance of lower level strategies based on assumption that they require less energy? Since I currently reside in an area which has undergone great collapse of economic basis and population over the last 40 years, I feel like I am developing some level of intuition about how things are not entirely likely to collapse as they did in Rome. For instance, I think humans will go to great lengths to maintain high tech communication networks while they allow a great deal of brown tech infrastructure to crumble. Could not, for instance, some similar analogy to Green vs Red social strategies apply?

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:03 am
However, I would like to make the point that IME, context does not reside in individual humans. For instance, very often a kid from a very rough background (every other word out of his mouth is mother-fucker and he just scribbled a gang symbol across another kid’s Covid mask) will respond marvelously to strategies from Social/Emotional model. You don’t have to make a kid fully submit to your authority before you can talk to him about naming and regulating his emotions.
I think I'm trying to make that point too but failing to do so. There's an individual development track and a social development track. On the social development track there will be different colors simultaneously as represented and manifested by current and legacy institutions, traditions, culture, myths, etc. However, a ColorN society will only have access to Colorn, where n<=N.

The societal colors is what a developing individual has to work with and get inspired by. Thus in a Green society, a Kegan2 child who is taken out of the Red (might is right power dynamics) and into a Green (care-based environment) might go to Kegan3 fast w/o having to spend much or any time explicitly dealing with strict (Blue) rules. (After all, people in a Green society spend much time thinking about lawyering and suing ... instead figuring that they're good as long as they do the right thing.)
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:03 am
Is the Yellow perspective synonymous with Degrowth perspective? Does Degrowth demand acceptance of lower level strategies based on assumption that they require less energy? Since I currently reside in an area which has undergone great collapse of economic basis and population over the last 40 years, I feel like I am developing some level of intuition about how things are not entirely likely to collapse as they did in Rome. For instance, I think humans will go to great lengths to maintain high tech communication networks while they allow a great deal of brown tech infrastructure to crumble.
It's [only] my opinion that cultural or mental development does not necessarily have to match physical limits. IOW, we don't need to revert to tribal warfare or magical forest spirits just because we have less energy or just because we're drowning in pollution. Rome collapsed from the outside in. What broke down were the supply lines from the center of the empire to the perimeter. Thus Britain/Londonium went first and fast reverting from 20th standard ceramics to handformed pottery (a sad affair!) during a span of ~50-100 years, whereas a couple of factories in Rome survived for centuries. For a modern parallel, consider the withdrawal of US military outposts causing a near instant collapse to "the local level of development". Afghanistan, for example, was the attempt to replace Blue religious consolidation of Red tribal rule under Orange/Green values "bringing water utilities and democracy by external force". This kind of arrogance failed for obvious and predictable reasons. The withdrawal caused a reversion to the baseline. So it behooves us to think about what OUR baseline is relative to how much WE are being "carried" by external forces such as cheap imports, federal assistance, etc.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:03 am
Could not, for instance, some similar analogy to Green vs Red social strategies apply?
Not sure I understand?

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote:t's [only] my opinion that cultural or mental development does not necessarily have to match physical limits. IOW, we don't need to revert to tribal warfare or magical forest spirits just because we have less energy or just because we're drowning in pollution. Rome collapsed from the outside in. What broke down were the supply lines from the center of the empire to the perimeter.
Right, but how will that manifest in the world of Amazon? The sidewalks in the crumbling Rust Belt city neighborhood where I currently own project space are no longer entirely functional. Recently, I watched as a young, obviously very poor (maybe homeless?),family of four (father, mother, 2 young kids) struggled to push a grocery shopping cart along the street. My assumption would be that both of the young adult parents did own smart phones, because much easier to achieve/maintain than car ownership, valid driver's license, insurance etc. If every grocery store within walking distance shut down and even the roads became rubble, would Amazon still ship EBT grocery boxes to their residence using moon terrain vehicle-like self-directing solar powered urban slum armored robots?
So it behooves us to think about what OUR baseline is relative to how much WE are being "carried" by external forces such as cheap imports, federal assistance, etc.
Absolutely, but it seems like one of the primary questions up for review at levels Purple/Blue/Green/Turquoise is "WHO constitutes WE?" So, there must be some level of integration of the new answer to this question at each of these levels in the next level up even though the spiral once again turns towards individualistic functioning. For instance, even if we are fed up to our ears with ineffective meetings that go on and on and on at the cusp of Green/Yellow, we might still tend towards tearing up a bit when we watch a clip of Kermit the Frog singing "It's Not Easy Being Green" whereas at level Red we'd more likely be thinking/feeling "Vermin!"

My question about integrating very cognitively impaired humans in community was actually meant to somewhat speak to Jean's note about natural desire to live in community of 150 individuals. I think there are something like echo chambers that develop when imagining who the other 149 folks might be. 150 members of this forum, something functional could probably be hacked together out of the rubble and the wilderness pretty quickly with few casualties. 150 members of this forum, plus equal weighted representation of middle class, middle-aged consumer adults functioning down to pre-Dave Ramsey level, still actually not that tough. 150 humans chosen at random, including those who are under the age of 6, over the age of 80, currently incarcerated, cognitively impaired, not able to read a book written at Dave Ramsey level, etc. - yup, then it gets a wee bit tougher.

So, even at the level of very middle of the road practical minded folk, say a middle-aged Midwestern man who works as a mechanical engineer for a corporation, and a middle aged Midwestern female who works as a teacher at a public school, there can be a huge divide as to what constitutes the baseline "reality" of the world that we live in. The engineer looks out of the window of his car as he drives past the young family struggling to push their cart and focuses on the infrastructure that he could fix, but is crumbling because "people like that" can't get their acts together, and the teacher looks out of the window of her car and wonders how the educational into employment system might have so failed the two young adults that they remain destitute even in a time of extreme labor shortage. Thus, the huge gender divide in voting in "purple" states in last election.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Could not, for instance, some similar analogy to Green vs Red social strategies apply?

jacob replies: Not sure I understand?
I just meant something like aren't we free to choose to retain some aspects of green tech and green society, even if they are relatively "expensive", in our market basket of future "goods?" Analogous to how one might choose to afford 80% dirtbag and 20% aristocrat lifestyle on ERE budget plus skillz vs. 100% middle class lifestyle on ERE budget plus skillz.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:20 am
Right, but how will that manifest in the world of Amazon? The sidewalks in the crumbling Rust Belt city neighborhood where I currently own project space are no longer entirely functional. Recently, I watched as a young, obviously very poor (maybe homeless?),family of four (father, mother, 2 young kids) struggled to push a grocery shopping cart along the street. My assumption would be that both of the young adult parents did own smart phones, because much easier to achieve/maintain than car ownership, valid driver's license, insurance etc. If every grocery store within walking distance shut down and even the roads became rubble, would Amazon still ship EBT grocery boxes to their residence using moon terrain vehicle-like self-directing solar powered urban slum armored robots?
Like the post office, they would begin to deliver less frequently. Service would become more unreliable. Some day when it's no longer economic (whether measured in money or energy) goods would simply stop being delivered. One example is how some California retail stores are shutting down operations due to excess loss via theft.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:20 am
Absolutely, but it seems like one of the primary questions up for review at levels Purple/Blue/Green/Turquoise is "WHO constitutes WE?" So, there must be some level of integration of the new answer to this question at each of these levels in the next level up even though the spiral once again turns towards individualistic functioning. For instance, even if we are fed up to our ears with ineffective meetings that go on and on and on at the cusp of Green/Yellow, we might still tend towards tearing up a bit when we watch a clip of Kermit the Frog singing "It's Not Easy Being Green" whereas at level Red we'd more likely be thinking/feeling "Vermin!"
One historical example might be how various European countries responded to Nazi occupation in particular when it came to persecution of minorities. The "We" identity then took on a very real significance. Blue countries (ethnocentric) easily gave up their minorities because the minorities were part of "them" not "us". Green countries (nationcentric+) resisted, sometimes successfully, that distinction.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:20 am
The engineer looks out of the window of his car as he drives past the young family struggling to push their cart and focuses on the infrastructure that he could fix, but is crumbling because "people like that" can't get their acts together, and the teacher looks out of the window of her car and wonders how the educational into employment system might have so failed the two young adults that they remain destitute even in a time of extreme labor shortage. Thus, the huge gender divide in voting in "purple" states in last election.
Which is Orange vs Green with voting trying to determine the balance. The pertinent part is that the attitudes are not Red, Blue, etc.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:20 am
I just meant something like aren't we free to choose to retain some aspects of green tech and green society, even if they are relatively "expensive", in our market basket of future "goods?" Analogous to how one might choose to afford 80% dirtbag and 20% aristocrat lifestyle on ERE budget plus skillz vs. 100% middle class lifestyle on ERE budget plus skillz.
Yes, I don't think social development needs to be conditioned on societal wealth. On the other hand, the type of warfare, say, does depends on the offensive/defensive cost-ratio. For example, guns (and spears) make everybody more or less equal on an individual basis as they require little investment in training or equipment to be dangerous and so there's strength in organizing. That is, an organized force of 10,000 soldiers can rule the world (as long as they don't run into a similar force) because random humans can't spontaneously organize a similar force. The Romans understood this. Insofar defense against "cheap weaponry" is available, the balance can completely tip in favor of highly trained soldiers (knights, stealth fighters,...). It is for sure easier to retain a certain level of magnanimity if one is well off. Worldcentric concern-organizations are often full of people of high privilege who need a hobby.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote:Like the post office, they would begin to deliver less frequently. Service would become more unreliable. Some day when it's no longer economic (whether measured in money or energy) goods would simply stop being delivered. One example is how some California retail stores are shutting down operations due to excess loss via theft.
So, maybe the young family would have to take weekly hike out of the realm of rubble going back to forest to the nearest Amazon drop box to get their EBT grocery delivery ELSE they would have to start growing/trading for food within locality ELSE they would have to migrate closer to what is now center of remaining civilization. The national chain drugstore on the corner just shut down, so this does seem to be the growing trend, even though property values are going up.
Which is Orange vs Green with voting trying to determine the balance. The pertinent part is that the attitudes are not Red, Blue, etc.
I was shooting for Blue-Orange vs Orange-Green. Imagine the engineer as somebody who actually gives voice to phrase such as "people like that" and the teacher as somebody highly unlikely to have read Illich on Deschooling. Level Yellow-Lite Jill of All Trades who spent X years at engineering school and y years teaching school while always meandering towards lifestyle of slack in The Adventure Cottage Library, briefly starts working on a complex model that will explain why property values are going up as chain drugstore branches shut down and homeless families push carts down the street and jobs go unfilled, but lacks adequate curiosity to overcome her low levels of rigor and vigor, so model remains quite vague and sketchy. Level Turquoise human maybe feels as one with the forces of nature as they heave and shatter the concrete squares of sidewalk up and out of alignment.
Worldcentric concern-organizations are often full of people of high privilege who need a hobby.
That sounds a little Orangey to me. I think the post-Green way to express this thought might be more like "Individuals who are lucky and/or diligent enough to eventually find themselves in a place of high privilege are often afforded the leisure time that allows for the pursuit of higher purposes inclusive of altruistic activities." Also, part of the point I was trying to make is that social class and specialization means that we only see/know/feel pieces of problems. I actually think that one of the major inefficiencies of Green is that it is too often and too much applied locally in the realms where Green lives and works. So, the humans in one zipcode are almost having to look for problems to solve while just one zipcode over the problems will hit you right in the face.

Catch-22s and the like also abound. For instance, in the very needy district where I am currently teaching, they can't get the federal funds to hire extra support staff to help students who are behind due to Covid, because the funds for extra staff will not be released to any schools who are not currently fully staffed at normal levels, but the poorest districts are also having the hardest time recruiting certified teachers during the current qualified labor shortage.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:50 am
So, maybe the young family would have to take weekly hike out of the realm of rubble going back to forest to the nearest Amazon drop box to get their EBT grocery delivery ELSE they would have to start growing/trading for food within locality ELSE they would have to migrate closer to what is now center of remaining civilization. The national chain drugstore on the corner just shut down, so this does seem to be the growing trend, even though property values are going up.
Consider something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MXUDLTH/

Not that time goes backwards, but 35 years ago living far away from the center of the hegemony, it was possible to get rare and precious goods shipped from America. The way it worked is that you'd buy a magazine in which there was a postcard you could use to order catalogues. Like the Sears catalogue, etc. only you had to pay $10 per catalogue for shipping and handling. These would arrive after a month or so. You'd then mail in an order form along with a traveler's check and 2-3 months later you'd receive a notice from the local post office along with an invoice for fees and customs duty. Taking an hour to get over to the post office (walking on the bus) would allow you to pick up the package with its precious contents.

Obviously not something one could rely on for day to day living but still possible. Rome at the center never really died, it just became really small as the lack of input of trees, wheat, slaves, and silver was reduced. If you were loaded you could still get caravans/couriers to ship but if you had no money/connections, you'd be reduced to what your locality could scrounge up.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:50 am
I was shooting for Blue-Orange vs Orange-Green. Imagine the engineer as somebody who actually gives voice to phrase such as "people like that" and the teacher as somebody highly unlikely to have read Illich on Deschooling. Level Yellow-Lite Jill of All Trades who spent X years at engineering school and y years teaching school while always meandering towards lifestyle of slack in The Adventure Cottage Library, briefly starts working on a complex model that will explain why property values are going up as chain drugstore branches shut down and homeless families push carts down the street and jobs go unfilled, but lacks adequate curiosity to overcome her low levels of rigor and vigor, so model remains quite vague and sketchy. Level Turquoise human maybe feels as one with the forces of nature as they heave and shatter the concrete squares of sidewalk up and out of alignment.
Sorry, not how I read it. The Blue perspective on destiny or social position is that you're born into it. You're poor by virtue of who/what you are---you have little agency and so you just have to accept your position in the god-given pecking order. The Orange is that you're poor due to lack of personal/individual effort and a personal failure to climb the ladder. That puts more burden on the individual.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:50 am
That sounds a little Orangey to me. I think the post-Green way to express this thought might be more like "Individuals who are lucky and/or diligent enough to eventually find themselves in a place of high privilege are often afforded the leisure time that allows for the pursuit of higher purposes inclusive of altruistic activities."
That sounds a little Greeney to me :lol:
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:50 am
Also, part of the point I was trying to make is that social class and specialization means that we only see/know/feel pieces of problems. I actually think that one of the major inefficiencies of Green is that it is too often and too much applied locally in the realms where Green lives and works. So, the humans in one zipcode are almost having to look for problems to solve while just one zipcode over the problems will hit you right in the face.
But that sounds Yellowey.

Anyway, this is getting vastly off track. I underlined what I think is pertinent to provide a Green carrot: What problems are attractive to those who actively have to go and look for them? Zero-waste aesthetics is an obvious one. Debates the merits of plastic/steel straws is another.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote: The Blue perspective on destiny or social position is that you're born into it.
Aaaaah. Gotcha. Crude assumption that we all pop out of a cabbage patch at age 18-21, fully and equally equipped to compete would be early Orange then.
Anyway, this is getting vastly off track. I underlined what I think is pertinent to provide a Green carrot: What problems are attractive to those who actively have to go and look for them? Zero-waste aesthetics is an obvious one. Debates the merits of plastic/steel straws is another.
Lol. No, no, nooo...The first rule of the good entrepreneur is you have to respect or like, maybe even love, your customer. Otherwise, you are "just pimping." You love firecrackers, so you get your start by selling firecrackers to your little friends on the playground, etc. Why the WSPs book/blog aimed at younger versions of them was kind of appalling, but well-meant at heart, but their advice on ripping off other people while running side-gigs was just appalling. "ERE" was kind of written for young Orange you as audience. You have to get more in touch with your Green side to sell to Green. Otherwise, it's like "How do we convince girls to take more math classes?" -> "I don't know. How about pink book covers/" OR Henry Higgins singing "Why can't a woman be more like a man" and bribing Eliza with sweets. It's either going to fizzle or boomerang on you.

IOW, you have to bring forward the Green sub-textual feelings which are at the heart of "ERE" in order to sell in an authentic manner to other complex humans at Green through ERE2.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by Miss Lonelyhearts »

I think Green has been burlesqued a bit in these discussions. I note the recent back and forth over whether one must have lived through the previous level in order to reach the next, but that had been my take away from the YouTube video series, and also jibed with my intuitive sense. Hasn’t “you can’t skip a level” even become a bit of a Wheaton FAQ mantra?

Some positive attributes of Green are “great listener,” “sharing feelings freely,” “people person.” (Another that I might suggest is “the personal is political.”) Mastery of these seems essential to Tier 2 functioning. One pro of evangelizing to this group is that it prides itself on its openness. The con is that to be accepted as equal you must evince equal level of openness, viz enduring one of the much maligned endless meetings in which you share your contribution with the group. Some gentle approach like “Hi, I’m jacob. My life’s work has been to create a system^H^H^H^H^H design a structure^H^H^H^H^H iterate a process^H^H^H^H^H build a life around my deepest values. I don’t think we share every value, but I believe we share enough that what I’ve learned may help. Can I tell you more?”

One must internalize the Green critique! The Green critique is/will be different from Blue “everyone must work” and Orange “guess you couldn’t hack it, buddy?” My guess is it’s more in line with, “that level of independence sounds appealing to me, but I’m concerned that to achieve it I’ll have to reduce my commitment to The Work,” whatever that individual’s Work is. To succeed you’ll have to show that the Work can be carried out with equal or greater efficacy under the ERE framework. Insofar as this is true (and I think it is), this should be an easy sell. But it also entails leaving behind part of the Green identity (losing the martyr complex and cultivating greater detachment).

Important Q: does ERE exist at multiple SD levels, or just sales pitches for it? Are these pitches appeals to ascend directly to Yellow? Is that even possible?


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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

Miss Lonelyhearts wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:35 pm
Important Q: does ERE exist at multiple SD levels, or just sales pitches for it? Are these pitches appeals to ascend directly to Yellow? Is that even possible?
Weee! Everything should/need exists at all levels according to its complexitual (hey, English grammar worked) level of capturing N to N+1. Not sure the grammar is always there but it's how it should be. From the perspective of Yellow everything is sales pitch. I think that's possible.
Haven't quite internalized whether this is properly color-coded... but very intriguing graph.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

Okay, I'm going to try to mine a bit more gold here ...
Miss Lonelyhearts wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:35 pm
I think Green has been burlesqued a bit in these discussions. I note the recent back and forth over whether one must have lived through the previous level in order to reach the next, but that had been my take away from the YouTube video series, and also jibed with my intuitive sense. Hasn’t “you can’t skip a level” even become a bit of a Wheaton FAQ mantra?
I think SD is a bit different than Wheaton due to typological idiosyncracies and adult ego development vis-a-vis societal development. For example, the individual development of Red (personal: egocentric, self-protective, become or seek out powerful, Kegan2) in a Green society (locker room talk, bullying, ...) is different than the individual development of Red (personal: egocentric, etc. ) in a Red society (get your weapons ready and prepare to defend yourself). There's a difference between a 13 year old going "nobody tells me what to do, I do what I want" in the year 2021 and a 50 year old doing the same thing in 2021.

IOW personal development takes different forms.
Miss Lonelyhearts wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:35 pm
Some positive attributes of Green are “great listener,” “sharing feelings freely,” “people person.” (Another that I might suggest is “the personal is political.”) Mastery of these seems essential to Tier 2 functioning. One pro of evangelizing to this group is that it prides itself on its openness. The con is that to be accepted as equal you must evince equal level of openness, viz enduring one of the much maligned endless meetings in which you share your contribution with the group. Some gentle approach like “Hi, I’m jacob. My life’s work has been to create a system^H^H^H^H^H design a structure^H^H^H^H^H iterate a process^H^H^H^H^H build a life around my deepest values. I don’t think we share every value, but I believe we share enough that what I’ve learned may help. Can I tell you more?”
Yes.
Miss Lonelyhearts wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:35 pm
One must internalize the Green critique! The Green critique is/will be different from Blue “everyone must work” and Orange “guess you couldn’t hack it, buddy?” My guess is it’s more in line with, “that level of independence sounds appealing to me, but I’m concerned that to achieve it I’ll have to reduce my commitment to The Work,” whatever that individual’s Work is. To succeed you’ll have to show that the Work can be carried out with equal or greater efficacy under the ERE framework. Insofar as this is true (and I think it is), this should be an easy sell. But it also entails leaving behind part of the Green identity (losing the martyr complex and cultivating greater detachment).
The thing I just realized or rather appreciated is that this internalization can happen at different levels of age or maturity and that this matters. In particular, I'm still criticizing Green from the perspective of my 8-18 year old self growing up in a Green society where the critique was already internalized to the point of being institutionalized. It's something that I (as an introverted individual) left behind. Whereas running into Green US adults, it's something they're moving towards as a whole (even INTJs). Typology is often disregarded [by research] because undergrad level statistics [t-tests and frequentism] turns everything into averages. I think typology is too underrated.

To understand this requires more dimensions :?
Specifically,
1) Type (MBTI, Ocean, ... or something simpler)
2) Individual adult ego development (Kegan, Cook-Greuter, ...)
3) Societal environment (Spiral dynamics)

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by Jean »

I've been thinking about this typologie, (and kegan), and i think i finaly could defines how they disturb me.
We probably share being orange growing up in a green environment.
Those model kinda put orange and green above red and blue. But I always felt that what is described by orange and green are kind of a mental illness, or maybe more accurately, a mental immune response to the modern world(modern starting with agriculture). Red and blue are those who aren't too much affected by this change.
I think ERE appealed to me, because it was able to help me cure myself from my orangeness, and protect myself from the greenness around me.
Maybe it could help to show green how it could have similar effect on himself.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by guitarplayer »

jacob wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:14 pm
Green: There are 4 games, so nobody knows what to do about the outcome. Lets talk about this.
God this is so much the community I live in :D :D :D

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by guitarplayer »

Conveniently, ERE Wheaton Map has the same number of levels as there are described colours in SD. Say each paradigm corresponds to a colour in the expected manner, i.e. scarcity is beige, accumulate is purple and so on (the names might be changed). Using this logic, the focal point of the original ERE Wheaton Map would be 'Optimization' and money, and would be extrapolated onto other levels (i.e. other levels would be seen through the lense of optimization).

My thinking would be that building a map for green would be building one for those who are 'almost there' and through the lense of the 'yields and flows' or another word like connectedness or congruence. 'Meaning' seems to resonate and particularly pertinent these days. @jacob you are right that the Wheaton Eco Scale is pretty green heavy so maybe 'carbon foorprint' could be one category. Orange is motivated by independence, green is motivated by... harmony?

One question I want to ask is 'what is the purpose of a map that is barely needed for a green who is anyway nearly yellow'. And an answer to this question would help in a choice of categories to be used. It would probably be about understanding the past trajectory of green so that they get a clear picture where it concludes. Since this is the most immediate step before yellow, we could play with the Hegelian thesis/antithesis/synthesis more than in other ERE maps.

The most clarity would need to be around levels 6-8, 6 being the actual state and 7 and 8 the carrot for green.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

A few years ago I belonged to a very green group that was organized to prevent the expansion of hazardous waste storage in a very poor, highly populated area. Some government scientist types who were in favor of approving expansion came to speak and answer questions at one of our meetings. One of them said something like "Well, we all take our clothes to the dry cleaner and drive cars, so the hazardous waste we create has to be stored somewhere." I thought to myself, "Well, I never use dry cleaners, and I rode my bike to this meeting.", but I said something like "Yes, but does it make sense to transport and store this hazardous waste in a highly populated neighborhood with very poor infrastructure maintenance and public services, where the number of things that could possibly go wrong is highly compounded?"

I guess my point being that "You Green people are consumers too!" is kind of weak or lazy. I mean, even if somebody has a purely aesthetic or emotional gripe with something, that's still a valid gripe, because the complexity of evolution imparted aesthetics and emotions to humans. They hold meaning.

Another seemingly unrelated example would be an old school sexual dichotomy manual describing a situation where the husband is in the position of household lead and must make decision about buying gray linoleum for $1/ft vs. yellow linoleum for $1.12/ft, and his wife greatly prefers the yellow linoleum for purely aesthetic/emotional reasons; she believes it will make her feel happier while working in the kitchen. The manual advises that a good leader will always "honor preferences of others" when making decisions unless to do so would directly violate prime directive/purpose. Oftentimes, the challenge to leadership is summoning up the creativity or higher level thinking which will transcend the necessity for "No, we can't afford/encompass/include that/them and still achieve our purpose."

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

guitarplayer wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:29 pm
Conveniently, ERE Wheaton Map has the same number of levels as there are described colours in SD. Say each paradigm corresponds to a colour in the expected manner, i.e. scarcity is beige, accumulate is purple and so on (the names might be changed). Using this logic, the focal point of the original ERE Wheaton Map would be 'Optimization' and money, and would be extrapolated onto other levels (i.e. other levels would be seen through the lense of optimization).
Since both are developmental scales, it's not unexpected that there would be some mapping although that doesn't mean that it should be of the form WL=1*SD+0 ... For example, the old WL table only had 8.
guitarplayer wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:29 pm
My thinking would be that building a map for green would be building one for those who are 'almost there' and through the lense of the 'yields and flows' or another word like connectedness or congruence. 'Meaning' seems to resonate and particularly pertinent these days. @jacob you are right that the Wheaton Eco Scale is pretty green heavy so maybe 'carbon foorprint' could be one category. Orange is motivated by independence, green is motivated by... harmony?
Rephrasing this (my bold) to 'those who express some level of discomfort (already)'.

Orange is motivated by "winning their game" which then leads to independence (because Orange is a warm color).
Green is motivated by "..." which then leads to interdependence (because Green is a cold color). The motivation for green is "process with people". There's no game to be "won". It's an infinite game. It's almost without exception about community, including more people into that community, and expecting included people to surrender themselves (their ego) to that community.

In terms of categories, I think one category needs to be how much one's work community (colleagues) has been replaced with a non-work community. This is also an issue for Blue which tends to "stay for the people" along with "the rule structure".

A non-work community that doesn't rely on "icky" money is even better, think UBI or gift-economies. I'm not sure how to put this as a category. Maybe it's better to think of it as breaking the employer-employee relationship---this being a hierarchy and thus bad. Interestingly selling courses for $$$ (as opposed to Orange who seems to give them away and monetizing with ads instead) seems okay, so customer-relations are okay. It's my impression that money issues are best handled by sweeping them under the rug and keeping them beyond arms-length, e.g. "Index fund 4% rule bad" but "annuity or pension okay".
guitarplayer wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:29 pm
The most clarity would need to be around levels 6-8, 6 being the actual state and 7 and 8 the carrot for green.
I'd rather start at the bottom (WL1). E.g. "art-history major, part-time work at a cafe, part-time work as an activist, lives with roomies, buys organic but students loans in default".

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob wrote:I'd rather start at the bottom (WL1). E.g. "art-history major, part-time work at a cafe, part-time work as an activist, lives with roomies, buys organic but students loans in default".
Why wouldn't they be in income-based forbearance rather than default?

I think from Yellow, this individual would have to be approached from a perspective inclusive of respect for Art History, Activism and Organic Farming.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:51 am
I think from Yellow, this individual would have to be approached from a perspective inclusive of respect for Art History, Activism and Organic Farming.
The other table (which is average US demographic, so majority orange) wasn't structured by "approaches" but rather relied on individuals being inspired by N+1 and moving themselves. The idea behind WLs was to avoid approaching anyone from N+2.

It's conceivable (I'm not going to dismiss the idea) that community-oriented people have to be approached (or something else) as a group rather than inspired on an individual basis; that the inspiration comes from another community at N+1 rather than any outside or inside individual. The dynamics is more complicated when working with group-minds (intersubjectivity) and not just subjectivity.

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Re: ERE Wheaton Map project: Green origin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I think I may just be muddling the discussion, because I think of Green as being more Artsy/Intellectual than Community Oriented. And Artists (4s on enneagram) are just as introverted as Scientists (5s on enneagram.) My brief Libertarian phase caused me to spend two years at an engineering college in the U.P., and when I went back to the liberal university town where my family resided, it was like all the warmth and color returned to the world, because there were other females, and the Arts, and conversation!

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