Dharma and non duality

[Scott 2]

I'd be interested in discussion of how the study of Tantra / dharma / non-duality changed your practice or experience spirituality.


I came at non-dual Tantra in a backwards fashion. Started yoga because stretching, with zero spiritual intent or experience. Practice changed me anyway - less rigid, more patient, etc. That lead to a more philosophical interest. Since western yoga is mostly grounded in a dualistic framework, I headed down that path. It felt emergent and explained the changes I was experiencing.

At some point, rolling around on the floor for 5-10 hours a week began to feel like a questionable use of time. My body also started to reject it. I happened upon the non-dual perspective around then, initially via a yoga podcast. That lead me to a book called "Tantra Illuminated", which showed how the non-dual perspective wraps the dual. Made sense and more fully explained my experience.

The net impact was a reduced inclination to escape into altered states of mind. I spent less time on a yoga mat. I'd like to say I used that time to bring my spiritual practice further into real life, but no. All the change I did experience seemed emergent from the practice itself - moving, breathing, and sitting (ideally in community!). It seemed independent of the philosophy. I have been able to keep it, with occasional check-ins to the physical practices.

Overall - I'm less of an asshole and feel a little better in general. Nothing dramatic, but I value the change.


I did explore Buddhist tantra at a cursory level - an introductory book and 8 week meditation class. The god is nothing vs. god is everything dichotomy seemed to conflict with what I had learned in yoga. It felt like a "pick one" scenario. But, the "what do I do about it?" seemed similar in both cases. So, I've found myself much more interested in "how do you experience what you do?" than philosophical debates of "what do you think?"

[fiby41]

@Frita - What the way out on a civilizational scale?

Way out from what? Climate crisis: vegetarianism.

[jennypenny]

@Scott -- Did the physical practice really help? I used to run and I felt less connected the longer I ran. It was extremely relaxing but I definitely withdrew into myself as I ran.

I've come at it the other way, basically trying to break down the giant armored cage I'd erected around myself. I started with rereading Tolle then moving on to more targeted reading in this area, as well as using a kind of immersion therapy where I make myself leave the house and occupy different places until the friction I normally feel dissipates so I can work on feeling like a part of the scene, as it were. I've also had to work on dismantling a lot of my formal religious infrastructure as well.

The biggest difference I've noticed is that my senses are heightened (which seems counterintuitive if I'm striving to feel like I'm part of the cloth and not a separate observer??). I have nothing but questions (even after a year+) but it feels like I'm on the right path even though the longer I pursue it the farther away I seem to get (and I'm still an asshole ).

[jacob]

The biggest difference I've noticed is that my senses are heightened (which seems counterintuitive if I'm striving to feel like I'm part of the cloth and not a separate observer??).

This makes sense. I think it's easiest to explain in terms of sound. Normally the brain (active listener) tunes into a given sound source, e.g. the radio or the birds outside. This tuning makes the active listener exclude most other sounds from the experience. If, however, the active listener is switched off, one typically becomes aware of all sounds in the entire spectrum. There's a lot more going on in the soundscape than the radio on my table. There's also the noise of the keyboard, DW's radio, an airplane, the forced heating, a car on the street ... all heard simultaneously and equally well. Such a way of experiencing in turn makes it pointless to talk of the Many in the the form of a radio, a plane, a bird, a car, ... an ear and an active listening source. Rather they're all part of One soundscape. For example, where does the tweeting bird sound exist? Between my ears? As pressure waves in the air. In the beak of the bird? The full experience can't really be reduced to objects---or at least trying to do so is just an exercise in intellectualization.

The same works with vision to increase peripheral vision substantially.

I'm guessing the nondual experience occurs when it happens for all senses (I'm including mental processes as a kind of sense) simultaneously. Hearing/sound is just the easiest.

At least that's how I currently understand it.

[Scott 2]

@Scott -- Did the physical practice really help?

When I did endurance work, I found it let my mind wander. It felt great, but I tended to disassociate from the experience.


I found my yoga practice different, in that it takes me to a single pointed focus, quieting everything else in the mind. Once that focus is released, the mind takes awhile to spin back up. It is like rebooting a computer, or closing all the open tabs in your browser. That then provides me with the space to absorb disruptions, separate myself from reactions, take a meta view on my behavior, make space to understand others, etc.

Touching on Jacob's question of taking care of yourself first - even with my life in total disarray, I could absolutely enter into this space, operating to the benefit of others. I see that as a fundamental characteristic of a spiritual practice.


Initially, I needed a very aggressive movement based practice to get there. We're talking 50+ minutes of heavily sweating vinyasa, sometimes two sessions in a day. I had to exhaust myself before things would still. That was done in a group environment. The stillness would follow me into life for awhile, with peak intensity immediately upon conclusion of savasana, tapering off over a day or two.

I gradually learned to gain that experience from more subtle movement - at first it was movement tied to breathe (vinyasa), then movement (alignment), then breathe (pranayama), then meditation on a sense (dharana), then meditation on nothing (dhyana). The more subtle layers were aided by sense withdrawal (pratyahara) - quiet room, ear plugs, heavily supported positions, sensory deprivation tank, etc.

With experience reaching a still mind, it became easier and easier for me to get there. In some respects, that acted as an escape. Especially when I was struggling with work, it was a problem. If I did a yoga practice before work, I'd catch myself slipping back into that quiet space, instead of working. Since I'd been able to turn down all my external motivators, the urgency to work was gone.


Up to the point of hiding in stillness, my experience tracks with what I understand as the dualistic yoga practice. Supposedly the practitioner enters into progressively more enlightened states of samadhi. Eventually, they may become a guide for others, removing suffering. But, in that context, all manifest life is suffering. Because it is separate from the divine. So what happens next doesn't seem to fit well with living as an engaged person in today's world, IMO.

As I understand the dualistic school of thought, it's impossible to fully experience the divine, because all of our emotions, feelings, memories, etc. exist as layers wrapped around it. That's part of why anyone claiming an enlightened state is looked upon as a bullshitter. The only thing you might know is an absence of time or lingering feeling of euphoria.


I understand the promise of a non-dual practice as instead recognizing divinity in all things. A woven tapestry is a common symbol. The experience of stillness is a taste of recognizing it. The practitioner's eyes open to that same divinity in all things. By learning this (removing ignorance) unconditional love manifests.

I, uh, didn't experience that. I tried. After I finished the tantra books and meditation class, I went to a two weekend "advanced" yoga teacher training on Tantra. The instructor is highly respected, decades of experience, etc. I even asked "so what about the spontaneous love, when does that happen???" No satisfying answer. Caring for others is something I struggle with, so the thought of it happening spontaneously was very appealing.

I do think there's an aspect of yoga, especially yoga instruction, that draws people inclined to care for others. Lacking that quality, I both admire it and find myself drawn to others modeling it. That may have influenced me for the better. There's also a performative component to consider, especially among young teachers and those making a living from their students. Guru traditions of the source culture further complicate messaging.


I hesitate to dwell on all this philosophy stuff. After reading dozens of books, I learned there is no "true" yoga. Instead, it's a collection of thoughts and practices, colored by the lenses of culture and interpretation. There is an effectively unlimited number of schools, gathered into broad, convenient groupings. From what I understand, most spirituality is similar.


So what I kept - I can enter into the state of mental stillness relatively easily. If I want to do it intentionally, I tend to watch my breath. I try not to hide there. I can play the same trick with whatever physical activity I am doing. It happens automatically fairly often.

With practice operating from that space, I am better at taking more considered responses to situations that would have previously thrown me. Since that repetition develops new scripts and replaces my existing scripts, even when not intentionally practicing, I act in the changed ways.

I have found myself trending towards an overly internal focus, especially since not working. Covid cut off all my yoga practice with other people. I think that is a strong contributor to the shift, and one I am looking to reverse. There is an energy to practice with others (sangha), that I believe contributes to change.

It reads like imaginary woo woo stuff. However, I found the experience undeniable. Had I not lived it, I would never buy into it. I'd like that back and am carefully weighing the benefit against Covid risk.

[chenda]

Very interesting to hear your experiences @scott2

I have more to ask but I will have to think some more