Older parents and living arrangements

[unemployable]

I'm coming up on my annual migration south to spend winter at my mom's house. This has been a tradition since Dad died in 2016.

Mom is 80 now and has been getting some pressure recently from my two sisters to move closer to one of them -- they both live in large cities (everything in the US here). It started out as just talk, but now she seems to be considering moving more strongly, perhaps as early as next summer.

Her house is not too big (4br, one level on about a quarter acre) but admittedly is a bit more than she needs by herself. When I am there it is a good size as I sort of have my own corner of it. Part of the deal is I do the maintenance she can't -- painting, pressure-washing the driveway, tree-trimming, any minor repairs I can figure out and so on. But she likes having a yard, gardening, growing herbs and so on.

She is concerned that while the house is OK to live in for now, there will come a time when it won't be, and she might be caught in a situation such as a after a hurricane strikes when there's no one to help her. But I think she may be front-running this eventuality and might end up moving to a smaller space before she needs to and while she can enjoy her present house for several more years.

She's in decent health, but she's watched several of her neighbors, many younger than her, deteriorate and be forced to move into assisted living. It doesn't help that this makes her social circle smaller. OTOH I have friends whose parents stayed comfortably in their homes well into their 90s. I don't know the full details though, such as whether they had home health care, so will be asking them presently. I want to gather all my intel before I move down there and discuss this more seriously with her.

Naturally this should be her choice and not mine, and I'm biased. There are potential sibling conflicts involved (again including me) which doesn't make the diplomacy any easier. One is most of the places they're pushing Mom towards have much higher carrying costs than what she now pays.

So my questions are, who else has had to deal with aging relatives and their living arrangements? How long were they able to stay in their house? Was what happened after they downsized they best possible outcome and if it wasn't, what would you have done differently?

[Stahlmann]

marry poor immigrant?

[Seppia]

So my questions are, who else has had to deal with aging relatives and their living arrangements? How long were they able to stay in their house? Was what happened after they downsized they best possible outcome and if it wasn't, what would you have done differently?

Had this experience with a couple of aunts.
One decided on her own to move into an assisted facility, the other one got help in the form of a live-in domestic helper.
Both did ok, because they did what they wanted to do which is very important.
The key in my opinion is to get help a little sooner than you think it's needed.
At an older age when things start deteriorating, it's fast, and having to decide in a rush increases the probability of missteps.

[jacob]

Her house is not too big (4br, one level on about a quarter acre) but admittedly is a bit more than she needs by herself. When I am there it is a good size as I sort of have my own corner of it. Part of the deal is I do the maintenance she can't -- painting, pressure-washing the driveway, tree-trimming, any minor repairs I can figure out and so on. But she likes having a yard, gardening, growing herbs and so on.

She is concerned that while the house is OK to live in for now, there will come a time when it won't be, and she might be caught in a situation such as a after a hurricane strikes when there's no one to help her. But I think she may be front-running this eventuality and might end up moving to a smaller space before she needs to and while she can enjoy her present house for several more years.

As people age they lose capacity and maintenance will be increasingly outsourced to others. There's usually some exchange. If it's filial obligation, there can be some resentment. If it's money, there's an increasing cost (e.g. "assisted living"). Or perhaps the elderly provides some service to the community, e.g. runs the weekly poker-evening and the neighborhood watch. In the latter case, they may derive a lot of meaning from those roles and the community might derive value from them too. Taking a person out of this meaning-making can lead to faster decline---afterall what have they now to live for sitting in a new apartment watching TV all day?

"Forced" is the opposite of front-running. I'd take the latter anytime. Front-running prevents the person from building up infrastructure-debt which often goes unseen until the whole situation turns into a cascading collapse. "Guess who will be fixing that?" Read the Swedish Death Cleaning book. For example, if the attic is full of old crap, now is a time to get that in order. Basically start preparing so that when the day to move does come, it will be that much easier.

I think it's great that she's aware of it. On average, for the elders I know/have known, they've often been in denial about it. Dying is like going bankrupt. First it happens slowly, then fast.

PS: I think people also underestimate how long it takes to build up new "capital" (of all kinds). Even when they're supposedly wise from age. People commonly assume that they can immediately pick up a new social circle or a new hobby after they move and lose their old life (gardening etc.). But building capital takes energy and time ... a typical example would be someone who is working and working until they can't figuring that they'll take up fishing after they retire. Only to find themselves physically incapable of fishing because they never practiced walking around in the weeds or throwing a lure and now they're 70 and totally out of fishing shape.

[Ego]

It may be wise to walk through some common scenarios like those your mother's friends encountered. What would happen if.....

Jurisdictional issues are often overlooked. Moving someone to a new state or city after they are in need of care can be challenging because insurances may be regional and certain programs may only serve local residents. Even if she doesn't move right away consider getting her setup as a resident in the city where you want the next step to occur. Also consider putting her name on waiting lists for the good assisted living facilities near your sisters. Tour the facilities now. Talk to the admissions people now. They are usually very good about explaining how the system works and how the loopholes work. A little planning can go a long way and is much easier than doing it while you are in the middle of an emergency.

[GandK]

Manage the expectations!

My MIL, in her mid-80s, moved from FL to OH a few years ago to be closer to her four remaining siblings (she was one of 12), and closer to a granddaughter. She had visions of them all spending her golden years together. Five years later, three of those four siblings are dead, the remaining sibling moved to be nearer his own children, and the granddaughter is working two jobs because her husband had a back injury. And my husband dreads calling his mother now because ALL she does is complain. Someone died, Ohio is so cold, someone else died, my friends are all in Florida, my dishwasher broke, why did I do this, when will you be back (so we can listen to all this in person instead of on the phone) etc.

I am truly sorry for her situation. I admit I would be far more sorry if she were actively trying to change things or even help-seeking instead of angry and bitter and resentful. And because "mood" is connected to cognition, I don't know if this is actual age decline, or if it's situation combined with her needing a serious attitude adjustment. The biggest problem we face with her is that although she's one of those lucky folks who still has all her faculties at her age, cognitive and physical, she psychologically has convinced herself over the last few years that she has no agency at all. And is that itself decline? At any rate, "I want to return to Florida" no longer leads to "so I will start looking at houses in St. Pete." It leads to calling us and complaining and giving us guilt trips about how we gad about experiencing world travel while she sits in Ohio and freezes and watches people die.

Which makes us want to RACE back there and see her.

[Sclass]

It may be wise to walk through some common scenarios like those your mother's friends encountered. What would happen if.....

This. At eighty anything can happen.

First, decide what role you would like to play in her endgame. This is not a discussion. It is a decision you need to make alone. Not with your mom, not with your siblings.

Then, you tell your mom what you are willing to do when the chips are down and what you will need to do it. It could be nothing and no $$$ to everything with full control to liquidate and sell her most precious possessions whatever they may be in order to finance her care.

This is where things get complex. If you take over you get the job.

It’s a tricky game. I sure don’t want to be you. I think I’ll go have some pumpkin pie and tea now.

[unemployable]

I wanted to wait awhile for the responses to come, and there are a lot of actionable comments here, so thanks.

We've been decluttering her house gradually since Dad's death, not that it was too "cluttered" to begin with. Most stuff that could be given away, Goodwilled, Ebayed or taken by one of us by now has been. This has been conscientious on Mom's part. For example she recently threw all our yearbooks away, which is fine by me because I had already ebayed all of mine that had any value.

Remaining in her house and moving to be close to one of her sisters aren't the only options, although I haven't laid out to her the most obvious alternatives. They would be remaining on the Gulf Coast and downsizing, or moving to Massachusetts where she grew up and her sister has always lived. Sister's kids are all in the area and while they shouldn't be expected to help her live, she could say spend the occasional weekend with the one who lives on Cape Cod. It's also not out of the question for me to move down there into my own place.

The points made about front-running being preferable to forced, but needing to balance this with the difficulty of developing a new social network, resonate. Sounds like GandK's MIL may have made the jump too early, and unlike buying a condo at my age it's a Rubicon that practically can't be uncrossed.

I think I do an adequate job of managing her house and finances, but would have no idea how to manage her, other than driving her to the hospital and the like. As it is now after five or six months I'm... let's say very eager to head back west. In a 2br condo in Chicago or Miami that period of tolerance would be closer to a week. An obvious kludge would be for one sister to spend a couple months with her in the summer -- she's a schoolteacher so has the time off, and owns her place so could rent it out. Then the other sister, who's an RN so presumably could attend to her health in ways I can't, could take up the job in the fall. She doesn't yet need someone there every day, but if it's so important for them to be close to Mom, why don't they exercise that option now? Although if I'm criticizing my sisters for granting themselves permission to spend Mom's money I should be circumspect planning out their time.

The nice thing is Mom seems to be aware of most of these issues, or at least what I've presented to her so far, on some level. She usually ends up taking my advice, although it may require months or years of campaigning. She's said she already told the one sister that she has two other kids too, their opinions count just as much as hers does and that unemployable's her financial adviser and any decision she makes has to be run through him. I'm worried mostly about her ability to say no, but while I work on coaching her that should develop my own willingness to at some point say yes.

[mountainFrugal]

I would not discount your ability to care for your mom with the guidance of your RN sister or her primary care physician. A majority of later care is just being the brains of the operation by keeping detailed notes and making sure she makes doctors appointments, med schedules, exercise, walgreens runs, etc. If things were to take a turn for the worse being strong enough to physically help move your mom around and keep her comfortable would be a huge help for her daily quality of life. I think that only looking at the finances undercuts your other abilities that you have developed from investing/ERE and otherwise.

One idea, although potentially more expensive in the short run, would be to try to convince your mom to trial living in those places as a vacation to show her what she might be missing being home alone. It is very difficult to convince older people that are set in their ways to even try something, so a small time frame might be better?

One other practical consideration is to see if you can get power of attorney now while there is no question that you mom is of sound mind. If she already trusts you with the finances that may extend to other important decisions that are not necessarily near, but will be inevitable. I do not mean to be a downer, only realistic.

This is so hard because your mom still has agency and you want to respect her as a human. Good luck.

[unemployable]

I would not discount your ability to care for your mom with the guidance of your RN sister or her primary care physician.

You are probably right but I should balance this against @Sclass advice to draw a line in the sand regarding my level of commitment. Do I want that to be my problem, even when I find it burdensome and inconvenient and might have other things I want to do?

One idea, although potentially more expensive in the short run, would be to try to convince your mom to trial living in those places as a vacation to show her what she might be missing being home alone.

I do believe she should do a longer trial run of living near either sister if that's what she wants. Calling their bluff essentially. It could (and really should) be an airbnb rather than living with them. Most of her visits to them are for few days. If she starts spending a few weeks around them, she or quite possibly they may have a change in attitude, and they wouldn't be in much of a position to argue. And again why shouldn't they want to accommodate this, if that's their long-term goal?

One other practical consideration is to see if you can get power of attorney now while there is no question that you mom is of sound mind.

I do want to work on this while respecting she has two other kids. Leading by example given my concern they're becoming too controlling. I'd like her to specify in her will that upon death any real estate she owns is expediently sold and disbursed with the rest of her estate. Houses tend to be the biggest thing kids fight over, and a house/condo near one of my sisters would only lead to bigger fights.

[mountainFrugal]

I do want to work on this while respecting she has two other kids. Leading by example given my concern they're becoming too controlling.

I only suggested the power of attorney if you are going to lead the charge. @Sclass' advice is the most important part and the first in the decision tree. Maybe a scheduled discussion with both of your siblings where you try to work as a team to figure this all out after you decide? Leading with open ended questions like "How do you feel about the situation?" and speaking last. The technical aspects of the money and house are the easy parts. The emotions and ideas surrounding them are the hard part. Then you can manage your siblings expectations (and they can help you) because you will all know what they are. You then work as a team to help manage your Mom's expectations like GandK suggested.

[edit] It is also possible that each of your siblings has a completely different view/relationship with your Mom leaving very little shared parts to build on as a team. If that is the case there might have to be more thought put into how to go about it.

[steelerfan]

My mom is in her mid 80s and has been widowed for about 4 years. I am her only child. She owns a house on the southeast coast. She lives in a Fifty-five and older community in her own house. I live in denver. I generally only see her twice a year but I call her 5-6 times a week. I am on her bank accounts and have power of attorney etc. etc. She is still sharp and paranoid enough, thankfully. She pays her own bills but needs me on occasion for various things. For example she was in a car accident last summer and she needed to get a new car, DL, credit cards etc. You see some “good samaritans” stole her purse while she was trapped in her car and went on a spending spree.

I have entertained moving her out to my location but that just would not work. We would be fighting in days. My dad told me it would not work moving her before he passed away and of course he was right.

Her community is very supportive (maybe too supportive) and she has friends that look out for her. When I visit, she gets calls from her friends and neighbors constantly. Invariably you see people around these folks that are there for a beneficial purpose. Handymen and other people provide services that do what she cannot if I am not around. She is mindful of that. I watch her expenses periodically but I am not around and these people are. She has almost been taken by internet scammers and fortunately we caught that in time. It is a hard time for her and for me but she wants and needs to live her life on her terms and for the most part she does. Not my business until she loses capacity to effectively manage her affairs.

People age differently. My uncle is 3 years younger and he is in assisted living. My guess is she will die before going into a nursery home or assisted care. Even though she has a policy to pay for a big piece of this.

I think where she lives is depressing as at this point a lot of the neighbors are dropping off…

To answer your question. I would not do anything unless the situation dictates. Her neighbor behind her is 96 and she drinks grey goose vodka everyday with “middle aged” friends that probably are draining her. If that happened in my mom’s case I would visit or pay someone persuasive to visit them on my behalf to explain things to them.

[Sclass]

I would not discount your ability to care for your mom with the guidance of your RN sister or her primary care physician. A majority of later care is just being the brains of the operation by keeping detailed notes and making sure she makes doctors appointments, med schedules, exercise, walgreens runs, etc. If things were to take a turn for the worse…,

I tried this. It got progressively harder to the point it became unbearable. At its peak I was managing five part time people. Drove me nuts with stress and it really cut into my life. Not saying you cannot do this, as people have different capacities for these things. I had my hands full with other responsibilities besides my mom which made things complex. Even though I was ERE, being care manager for my mom was not exactly what I had in mind for my retirement. I got forced into a job when I’d just broken free of salaried employment. Worse, if handled stupidly I’d be working for free. Or even worse, dipping into my ERE funds because mom ran out of $$. I mean that was the expectation “Sclass doesn’t need money he’s retired at age 43, he should handle it.”

This thread is covering a complex problem that has a lot of variables. I’m going to try to address an number of things I but it may look a little schizophrenic.

When getting other family members to team up, it really matters what kind of players they are. There are some hints that @unemployable’s sisters may not be strong candidates. I sense uncertainty. This changes everything.

In my case I was the strong one. Once I started leaning in everyone bailed. “He’s got this.” So there is this tradeoff of taking control and getting everything dumped on me. My wife would often point out that despite carrying the full burden of my mom’s care I probably would be a lot worse with the “help” of my lazy, greedy, entitled and demanding siblings. She had a point. They would have probably created more work than they performed.

Then as a result there was payout. At the end of the day I’m a business person/investor. I’m not going to take this on and after damn near destroying my life for four years calmly invite my AWOL siblings over to divide up the loot. So I basically took over all finances which further demotivated everyone else. I didn’t announce it but once the path to estate transfer got muddled my siblings disengaged.

I’m not sure what the right way was. In retrospect perhaps calling the bluff as @unemployable says is a good test. Maybe I should have done that. The siblings and their spouses went through the motions as *publicity stunts but they never committed to any real work.

@steeler be careful about POA. It stops working once your mom is incapacitated. DPOA is what you need and that will take you all the way to making hospice decisions. I made this mistake and had some serious stress when I realized I was cut off from my mom’s accounts at one point. I had a hospice doctor freak out when he realized I wasn’t DPOA. My dad blocked that because he didn’t want me having too much power over the situation. But then I’ll reiterate, if you take this role you are now the go to person to handle things. If I did it all again I’d get POA over the assets, stay quiet about her mental state especially with her bankers, and then have a DPOA in my back pocket to take care of any inquiries into incapacity.

So I recall some of @unemployable’s old posts where the sisters are referred to as not so reliable. This complicates things. Just sitting down and getting a bunch of verbal commitments out of such people may not do much.

The good news is mom seems to be a pretty reasonable person. My experience with old folks is a good many mature in reverse. They become more childlike and needy. My mom started down that road twenty years before her death where she ultimately was as helpless as an infant. Her “teen” years we’re difficult because she was still needy and demanding yet rebelling for her independence at the same time.

If I can say one thing about this “problem” is it’s a moving target. The equations governing the system, boundary conditions and constraints are constantly changing. What seems super important to lock down today will be meaningless in a few months. You need to stay on top of your current data and have some look ahead function trying to predict trajectory.

Good luck. It’s really good you’re thinking this out early. One good thing about being ERE is you have all day to let your mind process the potential outcomes.

In my case I realized my siblings wouldn’t come to the call of duty. I didn’t want to disappoint myself by admitting this or calling on them early and finding this out. It would break my heart because I wanted to think they were there for us. So I just took control of everything quietly. Then I had to slug it out alone till mom was done with her journey.

It’s made the inheritance interesting. As I’ve said I am not one to do all the work and have a big party at the end and invite everyone else to the treasure room at the end of the campaign. I think a few of the dimmer participants are trying to figure out what exactly happened to their slice of the pie.

To my disappointment I learned that one can only eat so much pie. I’m still learning how to live. At the end I realize it wasn’t about money. It was about sticking by my mom’s side when everyone else took off long ago.

Good luck with this. There isn’t a one size fits all solution. Keep working on it. Don’t kick the can down the road like me.

*do some insignificant mindless work like organize grandma’s closet, build an IKEA shoe rack for grandma’s slippers, take lots of photos and email them around to huge distribution lists of relatives titled “helping my mom”, then leave and not show up for six months.

[mountainFrugal]

Your situation sounded very hard indeed @Sclass. Your mom was likely appreciative for you being there for her.

On the care side of things, my sibling and I traded nights taking care of our cancer ridden parent during my senior year of high school. School, college applications, financial aid applications, working 30 hours a week, chemo and doctors appointments, meds and staying up every other night was a sufferfest with a bad outcome. Fortunately, we knew the cancer was aggressive and that it would not last forever. I think it is fine to have a somewhat selfish (and conflicted) attitude after being in the trenches. It is hard fucking work because of the emotional side of it adds insult to injury. Elder care is much harder to nail down how long you would remain in the role. My sibling (much more them) and I fulfilled a similar role for our grandparents more recently for the last 8 years of their lives as they helped raise us. It especially sucks when the rarely seen uncle swoops in at the last minute to move into the house and take control of the small estate by birth right. We all know how this ended. It would be easy to be bitter about these things, but in the end my time remaining is limited too.

Due to our remaining parents' habits and general ill health it looks like we will be doing the cycle again soon. Fortunately, we are well practiced but this does not make me look forward to it. The decision to take the reigns is not something to take lightly as has been expressed multiple times. It can be worth it (and likely will be) based on your relationship with your mom though.

When getting other family members to team up, it really matters what kind of players they are. There are some hints that @unemployable’s sisters may not be strong candidates. I sense uncertainty. This changes everything.
...
So I recall some of @unemployable’s old posts where the sisters are referred to as not so reliable. This complicates things. Just sitting down and getting a bunch of verbal commitments out of such people may not do much.
...
If I can say one thing about this “problem” is it’s a moving target.

I think this is an important set of sibling observations that I was not aware of being relatively new to the forum. I would still think that this is worth attempting to work together. People can and do rise up to occasions, but putting them in the situation to do so by calling the bluff might be a best way to do that ahead of any major health declines.

[Sclass]

Elder care is much harder to nail down how long you would remain in the role.

Hey this reminded me of something really important. It probably is very relevant to @unempolyable’s situation.

I took control because I realized the money might not last if it was managed poorly. My siblings are good at spending money. They’re not good at conserving or growing it. I was terribly afraid if I just dropped everything on my sister or brother they’d come back to me in a few years broke with mom needing even more care.

[unemployable]

I'll call my sisters R and E. R is the problematic sister, a year younger than me, single, lives in Chicago. E is some six years younger than me, married and lives in Miami. None of us have kids and at this point that will not change.

One issue is that R has acted in a controlling/overbearing fashion in the past in family matters. She seems to have plenty of ideas for how Mom should spend her money, and because she can't stand the Deep South herself doesn't think Mom belongs there either. (If it's not clear I'm painting a picture that R has a sociopolitical worldview very unlike mine, or Mom's. What matters most here is her authoritarian bent is on display.) So yes, the specter of Mom exceeding her safe withdrawal rate thanks to R is not lost on me.

In particular, R lived with Mom and Dad while Dad was dying and I do suspect R thinks this provides her with a permission slip to dictate how Mom should spend her remaining years.

None of us are changing our personalities. I would greatly prefer Mom break it to R that she wants no part of Chicago (if that is how Mom feels, which right now generally is) without me getting in a pointless debate with R over it.

R isn't very self-aware; I think E's a little better in that department. Regarding @sclass's point on which responsibilities we are willing to accept, I get very strong vibes that R wants all the privileges of being near Mom but has given very little thought to the duties. And I sure won't be going to Chicago in January myself. I've made that very clear to Mom. In the Myers-Briggs framework I'm a strong Thinker and R's a strong Feeler, and I'm not sure what the best way is for the former type to communicate to the latter. Not that getting R to agree with me on anything is an easier uphill climb than Half Dome to begin with.

As it is now I have happened into a fantastic housing hack. I spend summers in the Colorado mountains and winters on the Gulf coast, and my annualized average housing cost is on the order of $100/month. I'd rather not get into the specifics of the Colorado part here, but it can pulled out from me at any time, just as it would be if Mom were to move. I'm prepared for that -- resiliency and non-fragility, after all -- and good things like that never last anyway, but I'm biased in favor of wanting this to continue until I say it's time to live some other way.

I don't have as good a read on E, the nurse (works from home now). She married well and they've done OK professionally. Even with NYC and now Miami cost of living I suspect they have a few million saved up. Their plan may be to buy Mom a place down there -- they've never said this but I've done the math. Again I'd lose, but if that's what she really wants, then fine, and at least it ain't Chicago.

[GandK]

Looking at this situation from afar, my advice is to sit down over Zoom, have a cup of tea with E, and explain all these thoughts to her privately. She might be thinking a lot of the same things you are, and it's possible that her medical contacts may mean she has more resources at her disposal than you are aware of.

[mountainFrugal]

@unemployable any new updates on this complex situation?

[unemployable]

We did talk about this a good bit. She seemed receptive to most of my ideas.

Chicago seems right out. She doesn't want to deal with those winters, among other things, and knows no one there other than her daughter (R).

A separate complication has arisen with the other sister, E in Miami. She seems to be running into into some health/wellness issues that I'd rather not go into too much detail about (although I may want to discuss it as its own topic). This has caused her relationship with Mom to suffer in recent months and Mom has rightly become very hesitant to rely on her for living arrangements or anything else.

Inexorably, the people Mom has known in this neighborhood for years continue to move out, some to assisted living, some just to condos, but I do see what she means when she says there would be fewer and fewer people she'd be leaving behind. I think back to the northeast is the most likely scenario, although if the specter of E and her husband buying her a place in Florida themselves came up she'd probably take it as long as she felt it was time to move.

I would be surprised if she were to move in the next year or two, and I've already casually alluded to spending next winter down here. But I'm more prepared for any change, and I think she is too.

[mountainFrugal]

We did talk about this a good bit. She seemed receptive to most of my ideas.
...
But I'm more prepared for any change, and I think she is too.

It is good that you and your mom are mostly on the same page. Keep us posted. These complicated family dynamics are not something that gets discussed enough.