Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

All the different ways of solving the shelter problem. To be static or mobile? Roots, legs, or wheels?
thrifty++
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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by thrifty++ »

You are right Quebec City is cheap.

I have spent time there. It is quite beautiful as well. The city itself.

How easy/hard was it to obtain a rental without a job there? You are completely FIRE now? Like you are no longer working?

I have spent a bit of time in Quebec City. It was during summer though. I have heard that it gets very cold there, even for Canadian standards. I dont suppose you have spent a winter there yet? I wonder how much the heating bills offset the low rental costs.

I found people really nice in Quebec City.

TBH I have the impression that whole east side of Canada is quite cheap. Like Quebec, New Brunswick, PEI, Nova Scotia, Labrador and Newfoundland. I am not sure what the life would be like in those other eastern provinces though as all the cities are quite small.
Last edited by thrifty++ on Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:36 am, edited 5 times in total.

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unemployable
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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by unemployable »

LetsRetireYoung wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:02 pm
You guys. :) That's the best part - you don't have to spend the winter here!
Although you make it sound like time spent outside of Canada doesn't count towards the three-year residency requirement for permanent citizenship.

And if you can't deal with cold, Canadian citizenship probably isn't for you.

Do you know whether Canada has a retirement visa-type provision for people over 50, as many other countries do? Internet seems to say it doesn't in that sense say Thailand has, where you deposit $20k or so and get to live there. That's the bracket I'm closer to.

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LetsRetireYoung
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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by LetsRetireYoung »

thrifty++ wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:43 pm
How easy/hard was it to obtain a rental without a job there? You are completely FIRE now? Like you are no longer working?
Correct - fully FIREd since May. :) (I moved to QC in September.) When the landlord company asked for some proof of income, I just told them I live off my stock portfolio, and said I could send them my last year's tax return or a statement from my portfolio hahaha. They just accepted that at face value: all they need is to be somewhat sure that your checking account will have that $595 CAD on the first of every month.

thrifty++ wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:43 pm
I have spent a bit of time in Quebec City. It was during summer though. I have heard that it gets very cold there, even for Canadian standards. I dont suppose you have spent a winter there yet? I wonder how much the heating bills offset the low rental costs.
But see, that's the best part: the $595 CAD ($480 USD) rent includes all the utilities + fast internet. There are no heating bills at all. <3
thrifty++ wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:43 pm
TBH I have the impression that whole east side of Canada is quite cheap. Like Quebec, New Brunswick, PEI, Nova Scotia, Labrador and Newfoundland. I am not sure what the life would be like in those other eastern provinces though as all the cities are quite small.
I mean, they're cheaper than Vancouver and Toronto, simply because there's no way they can get pricier than that hahaha - but all the cheapest rentals in Canada are in Quebec, thanks to this province's awesome rent control rules.

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by LetsRetireYoung »

unemployable wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:23 pm
Although you make it sound like time spent outside of Canada doesn't count towards the three-year residency requirement for permanent citizenship.
I already wrote about that haha - the plan is to a) spend 2 winters here, b) apply for citizenship in March-April 2023, c) become a snowbird in 2023 and never have to spend another winter here again. Tactical sacrifices for strategic gains, eh?
unemployable wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:23 pm
Do you know whether Canada has a retirement visa-type provision for people over 50, as many other countries do? Internet seems to say it doesn't in that sense say Thailand has, where you deposit $20k or so and get to live there. That's the bracket I'm closer to.
I'm not sure - if it exists, I never heard of it. :( Canada's whole thing is bringing over millions of qualified (or qualified-sounding) relatively young immigrants. About 5 years ago, Canada decided to boost its population by ~10% simply by welcoming 3 million new immigrants who had in-demand skills. As others have pointed out, their system is pretty ageist, but I advise you to keep googling. You might find something I overlooked.

white belt
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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by white belt »

It sounds like Quebec City is a good fit for you thus far. However, you asked why more people haven't tried moving there and everyone in this thread has responded with reasons to include the following:

-cold weather
-possible nativism (this tends to get much worse in times of instability/crisis and is not static)
-marginal cost savings
-severing of social capital
-climate change risks (flooding)
-political risk (what happens if rent-control laws are changed?)
-ageism

The difference between Lean-FIRE and ERE is the difference between Wheaton Level 4/5 and 6/7. In simpler terms, Lean-Fire focuses on optimizing only financial capital by decreasing expenses and/or increasing income. WL 6/7 focuses on using multiple forms of capital in a system, which has the nth order effect of lowering expenses much more than what can be accomplished with only financial capital tinkering.

From your blog, I believe you are aiming for expenses in the $1k USD a month range. If I look at JAFI (Jacob Adjusted For Inflation) for today to try to capture some of the inflation over the past year, it comes out to $9260 a year ($772 a month) in expenses. In other words, there are many on this forum who are already living a lifestyle that is >20% cheaper than your target lifestyle without having to resort to moving to another country. They are doing this by using multiple forms of capital.* This is perhaps why your idea is met with less enthusiasm on this forum.

* = Some examples of using other forms of capital for cheaper housing would be renting somewhere that is below market rent due to social connections, taking care of a person or property for reduced rent, buying a house in cash and renting out spare rooms, etc.

thrifty++
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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by thrifty++ »

Cool finding a rental sounds like it was reasonably easy. I dont think the rental market is very tight in Quebec City.

I think the rent in Quebec is cheaper than some of those other provinces, but in terms of buying property I think those other eastern provinces can be cheaper than Quebec. Must be the rent controls as you say. So it might depend when you want to rent or buy your residence. But, those other provinces have only quite small cities, all smaller than Quebec City.

TBH I have also entertained the idea of doing what you are doing in Quebec City. So, I will be keen to see how you find winter there. I think though from now until the end of December it will be quite nice. Christmas in Quebec City would be amazing. And they also have some cool winter sports there. Like they set up this massive taboggan. I think the part I would hate would be from January to April. That would be when I would want to go somewhere warm.

If I was living in Quebec City I would probably want to have a reasonably nice apartment. Given that you might be inside a lot during winter. I cant really fathom what living in that kind of cold is like TBH.

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by chenda »

white belt wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:10 pm
JAFI (Jacob Adjusted For Inflation)[/url] for today to try to capture some of the inflation over the past year, it comes out to $9260 a year ($772 a month) in expenses. In other words, there are many on this forum who are already living a lifestyle that is >20% cheaper than your target lifestyle without having to resort to moving to another country. They are doing this by using multiple forms of capital..
A bit off topic but should house owners deduct market rent from JAFI for a consumption comparison ? I understand half of JAFI was spent on rent, and a freehold owner could consume more and still only spend $9260.

white belt
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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by white belt »

chenda wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:22 pm
A bit off topic but should house owners deduct market rent from JAFI for a consumption comparison ? I understand half of JAFI was spent on rent, and a freehold owner could consume more and still only spend $9260.
viewtopic.php?p=120667#p120667

chenda
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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by chenda »

@white belt - thanks

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by LetsRetireYoung »

white belt wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:10 pm
The difference between Lean-FIRE and ERE is the difference between Wheaton Level 4/5 and 6/7. In simpler terms, Lean-Fire focuses on optimizing only financial capital by decreasing expenses and/or increasing income. WL 6/7 focuses on using multiple forms of capital in a system, which has the nth order effect of lowering expenses much more than what can be accomplished with only financial capital tinkering.
Fascinating - as they saw on social media, I was today years old when I learned about the Wheaton levels. Thank you for this new information. :)
From your blog, I believe you are aiming for expenses in the $1k USD a month range. If I look at JAFI (Jacob Adjusted For Inflation) for today to try to capture some of the inflation over the past year, it comes out to $9260 a year ($772 a month) in expenses. In other words, there are many on this forum who are already living a lifestyle that is >20% cheaper than your target lifestyle without having to resort to moving to another country. They are doing this by using multiple forms of capital.* This is perhaps why your idea is met with less enthusiasm on this forum.

Makes sense. I just don't think that accounts for long-term climate change shenanigans (being almost anywhere in Canada would be better than anywhere in the South, for example) or the healthcare costs. (Canadian healthcare isn't perfect, but like I'd said, nobody has to declare bankruptcy due to medical bills over here, eh.)

As for folks with lower housing expenses, I wonder how much of that is due to temporary arrangements (a buddy doing you a favour) that won't last beyond a few years, or living with a roommate. (Nothing wrong with roommates, but that's not how I personally would want to spend the rest of my life. Gotta love that privacy haha)

I'm still not giving up on the notion of turning Quebec City into a lean-FIRE hub. :lol: Who knows, maybe years later someone else will search this forum for any mentions of Quebec, will stumble across this thread, and get inspired. :)

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by LetsRetireYoung »

thrifty++ wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:42 pm
I think the rent in Quebec is cheaper than some of those other provinces, but in terms of buying property I think those other eastern provinces can be cheaper than Quebec. Must be the rent controls as you say. So it might depend when you want to rent or buy your residence. But, those other provinces have only quite small cities, all smaller than Quebec City.
Yeah - I tried being a property owner once (a condo near Seattle), and even the basic required maintenance kicked my ass. :lol: I know enough about myself to know that I would suck as an actual house owner. The place would get condemned as uninhabitable in a matter of decades hahaha. I'm just better suited to being a renter, I suppose.
thrifty++ wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:42 pm
TBH I have also entertained the idea of doing what you are doing in Quebec City.
https://youtu.be/FhmDhGIJzE0?t=57 :lol:
So, I will be keen to see how you find winter there. I think though from now until the end of December it will be quite nice. Christmas in Quebec City would be amazing. And they also have some cool winter sports there. Like they set up this massive taboggan. I think the part I would hate would be from January to April. That would be when I would want to go somewhere warm.
Yeah, I saw the giant tobogan area that's fenced off for now: it'll be amazing. :) I actually grew up in Siberia, so even though I haven't experienced real cold in quite a few years, I'm used to it. And while my 1-bedroom apartment might not be huge (I'm guessing it's about 750 sq ft), I have enough books, video games, and musical instruments stashed inside to make it through any winter haha. I might start a journal here to keep y'all posted. :)

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

LetsRetireYoung wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:04 am
I might start a journal here to keep y'all posted. :)
Please do, we all may learn something and grow from the experience.

chenda
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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by chenda »

LetsRetireYoung wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:04 am
I might start a journal here to keep y'all posted. :)
Да, пожалуйста :) I think you would do an very interesting journal.

sky
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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by sky »

I had the paperwork to emigrate to Quebec in my hands at one time, and eventually backed out and did not file the paperwork. At that time my job was seriously going downhill due to management failure. The reason I did not follow through with immigration was mainly a timing issue, I looked at my finances and decided if I hung on for a few more years, I could quit and FIRE.

There is something about Canada that bothers me though. I get the feeling that there is some giant scam going on where powerful groups in Toronto and Ottawa are ripping off everybody else in Canada. I only have experience with northern Ontario and Quebec, so not a full experience of what Canada is like. The furthest south I have been in Quebec is Rouyn-Noranda.

There are a lot of things I like about Canada though, mainly the lack of paranoia that the Americans have. At least, my personal level of paranoia drops quite a bit when leaving the US.

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by LetsRetireYoung »

2Birds1Stone wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:10 am
Please do, we all may learn something and grow from the experience.
chenda wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:37 am
Да, пожалуйста :) I think you would do an very interesting journal.
As you wish. :)

MissyZelma
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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by MissyZelma »

As a Canadian, born on the border of the Quebec province, I just wanted to say THANK YOU! I would agree that Quebec city is a fantastic place, although we won't be able to join you there - our entire social capital is here and we're too old to start over - we love to visit the Quebec province. I also wanted to share a few details about Canada and Quebec from a few of the comments I read.

While Canada as a country is bilingual, Quebec as a province is not. There's a long history between the English and the French in Canada, and some Quebecers do tend to see speaking French as a liberation issue and as a distinct culture with a lot of history- so yes I'd encourage anyone living in Quebec to speak French and not expect Quebecers to speak English to you. They'll respect even the attempt.

As for the Quebec weather, we would say, there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing. There is sooo much to do in the winter outside that's a ton of fun and a lot of it is free here provided by the cities: skating, skiing, toboganning, walks etc.

As for the sunshine hours, what it lacks in the winter perhaps it makes up for in the spring/summer./fall. I personally can't imagine living somewhere where it wasn't still light out at 9pm on a summer day.

Finally, for someone who mentioned racism in Quebec, I'm not sure if it's any worse than anywhere else in North America (but I am Caucasian). We don't have near the amount of violence/gun violence or guns for that matter, or mass incarceration consequently. So it's just safer all around in any area in most cities in Canada.

And I live in the probably the most expensive city in Canada - Toronto - but if you're ever in town and want to meet up - or need a place to crash for free - message me. Seriously! It was so great to read your post.

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