Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

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LetsRetireYoung
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Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by LetsRetireYoung »

I was very surprised that Quebec got hardly any mentions on this entire forum. In my opinion, it's the perfect lean-FIRE destination - and particularly Quebec City.

Personally, I moved from the US to Canada because it had a better social safety net (imho), and once I got here and became a permanent resident, I realized that Quebec was the best place to be.

Let me count the ways. ;)

1. Canada will be better suited to withstand climate change than the US in the 21st century. It'll still have its share of extreme weather events, but it also has lots of uranium and clean drinking water (unlike, say, Arizona), and overall cold weather. (Also, zero hurricanes!)
2. Canada's healthcare system may not be perfect, but no one has to declare bankruptcy due to medical bills. Anecdotally, I had to get a couple of ultrasounds last year - with my health card, I had them scheduled and done within 2 days on each occasion. My immuno-compromised ex-girlfriend has a lot of medical issues, but she was never charged a penny for all her scans and tests and hospital stays. (You do have to pay for your prescriptions, but more on that later.)
3. Of all the Canadian provinces and territories, only Quebec has rent control. I used to work as an analyst, and I compared all the cheapest Canadian towns (in terms of rent): time and again, Quebec had the cheapest rent in the entire country - all because of their rent control. The downside being, the sales tax is 15%. The insanely low rent more than makes up for it, though!
4. In addition to the free healthcare, Quebec also has a province-wide plan that will provide free medical prescriptions to those who qualify. Unless I'm very mistaken, no other province has that. From what I understand (I'm still signing up for the local health card), everyone with low income qualifies. That means your healthcare (except for dental coverage) will be completely free. :)
5. The two cities with the lowest rent in Quebec are Sherbrooke and Quebec City. Sherbrooke is a small college town with 167,000 people. You can rent a one-bedroom apartment with all the utilities and Internet included for just $380 CAD. (As of this writing, it's $307 USD.) The downside is that Sherbrooke is really, really small: my googling suggests that the town has only one main street :lol: - either that, or all the other streets are so fugly that their pictures never got uploaded online.
6. The second-cheapest city is Quebec City. You can rent an all-included one-bedroom apartment for just $595 CAD ($481 USD) - everyone in Quebec moves simultaneously on July 1 (a fun local tradition), so I'm not sure if the leftover apartment I got in September was average or if I'm actually overpaying hahaha. For that money, I ended up getting a pretty spacious apartment with incredibly fast internet, on the second floor of a brick building (by which I mean this is not a random basement apartment), and just a 15-minute walk away from the beautiful tourist district.
7. Quebec City's rent may be 56.6% pricier than Sherbrooke's, but there's a lot more to do here, and the views... See for yourself, eh. :) Those pictures aren't photoshopped: it really is that beautiful here.
8. Most people in Quebec City speak at least a little English, but you'll need to learn French to get around. Full immersion is the best way to learn a foreign language, so you'll end up getting a fun new hobby - and learning a new language will also help you keep Alzheimer's at bay. It's a win-win! :P
8a. While you're learning this fun new language, there's a pretty big community of Anglophones who can help you fit in. :) You'll never really be isolated.
9. Almost forgot: the local transit system is so nice that after I sold my car in Toronto (I drove a Uhaul truck when I moved here), I never once regretted being a pedestrian. The city is remarkably friendly to pedestrians and bicyclists, there are lots of parks to ride your bicycle/skate/scooter/longboard, and most things are within walking distance. It's pretty remarkable, really - and I used to live in Reno, Vegas, Fort Worth, Tampa, and Seattle. Of all those, Reno is the only city that was as walkable as Quebec City. (Also, you can cross most of Quebec City on foot in just one hour!)

I hope this post helps put Canada, and especially Quebec, and especially especially Quebec City :lol: , on people's radar. I'm already here - and I hope more lean-FIRE fans move here. Just imagine how many more lentils you'll be able to buy once you slash your rent + utilities + internet down to just $481 USD, eh? :lol:

J_
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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by J_ »

Thanks for your information. Can you tell something more about daily sunshine hours through the month's, idem about the daily temperature? Last time (35 years ago) I visited beautiful Quebec City I stayed in jail......

which was changed in a Youth Hostel.
I loved my stay there very much, and yes a little french speaking (as I do) helps a lot.

chenda
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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by chenda »

$481 includes all your utilities and tax ??

7Wannabe5
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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

How easy is it to achieve or maintain permanent resident status? Isn't there some level of resistance to those who didn't pay into the extended social safety net system attaching themselves as free-riders?

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by LetsRetireYoung »

J_ wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:28 am
Thanks for your information. Can you tell something more about daily sunshine hours through the month's, idem about the daily temperature? Last time (35 years ago) I visited beautiful Quebec City I stayed in jail......
That sounds like a fascinating story haha. I only moved here on September 1st, so I can't tell you a lot about the weather. During my scouting mission in August, it was remarkably sunny and pleasant. :) The local say that the snow (which hasn't fallen yet) will last until April or so, and that makes sense, seeing as Quebec City is right next to Maine on the map. (Or at the edge of the world, as I like to say!)

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by LetsRetireYoung »

chenda wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:09 am
$481 includes all your utilities and tax ??
It sounds wild and unbelievable, I know! :) But yup, $595 CAD or $481 USD includes all the utilities and high-speed Internet. The best part? Each apartment gets its own login/password, so you don't have to share your connection with people who download heavy stuff on Limewire all day every day. You gotta love province-wide rent control. <3

Here is the proof - another apartment in my building is up for rent, for the same price. It's not exactly a mansion, but look how cozy it is. <3 https://www.rentboard.ca/quebec-qc/198- ... -est/36620

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by LetsRetireYoung »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:49 am
How easy is it to achieve or maintain permanent resident status? Isn't there some level of resistance to those who didn't pay into the extended social safety net system attaching themselves as free-riders?
It's mighty easy! I'm a double immigrant: my family moved from Russia to the US in 2003, and I moved to Canada in 2019. (Which really makes me curious where the hell I'll move in 2035. :lol: ) Because of that, I get to compare both countries' immigration systems. Canada's system is way, way more streamlined than America's. The rule of thumb is that after you spend your first year here, you can apply for PR. There's a bit of paperwork involved (CELPIP test to measure how well you speak/read/write English, your fingerprints sent to the FBI for a background check, etc) but it's quite achievable. Before covid, it took them about 6 months to process all that: you'd get assigned a certain number of points, then entered into the lottery draw where people above a certain point-level would be invited to apply, etc.

Here is what my timeline looked like, even with all the covid delays in their processing:
March 2019 - got a work transfer and moved to Canada, eh
March 2020 - eligible to apply for PR
June 2020 - my company's partner, Deloitte, collected all the documents, triple-checked all the details, and submitted my application
Also June 2020 - the draw happens (it takes place at odd intervals) and I get invited to apply!
August 2020 - Deloitte puts together my big PR application (a pretty thick packet haha) and sends it in
November 2020 - I go in to do my biometrics exam, which is mostly a formality
March 2021 - I get my PR!!!
May 2021 - I retire 8-)
October 2021 - the physical PR card finally arrives

So, achieving the PR status is easy, once you actually get here. I moved here on a work transfer - make sure to research your options. Fair warning, Canada discriminates based on age, but if you have the right skills and/or work experience, I think you'll be able to get in. Once you get your PR, maintaining it is easy - it's permanent. I'm playing it extra safe and spending 2 more years in Canada: you must spend 3 years within the country to apply for citizenship. Days before you get your PR count as half-days. That means if I cut down on all foreign travel, I'll be able to apply for citizenship sometime around March 2023. I'll get to have a Canadian passport in addition to the American one haha

I hope this helps!

Edited to add: I don't see how anyone would shame you for using the social support network without being a full-time employee. It's not like you wear a scarlet letter on your chest haha. Personally, I don't plan to go on any social assistance aside from their prescription coverage plan - I pay all the taxes I owe, so I view that as a fair exchange.

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

J_ wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:28 am
Thanks for your information. Can you tell something more about daily sunshine hours through the month's, idem about the daily temperature? Last time (35 years ago) I visited beautiful Quebec City I stayed in jail......

which was changed in a Youth Hostel.
I loved my stay there very much, and yes a little french speaking (as I do) helps a lot.
This information is fairly accessible online https://www.google.com/search?q=weather ... city+march and click on "graphs". Looks like due to the northern position of the city the winter days are very short (<9 hours) while summer is very long (>15 hours).

For me it would be WAY too cold, and it looks like they get a lot of rain/snow most of the year. Beautiful from the pictures however!

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by basuragomi »

I'm a big fan of visiting Quebec City, but if you're coming from the US, you should probably know that Quebec City is cold. Not arctic cold, but spending 5 months below freezing. Winter and spring as a pedestrian is mostly spent navigating the snow trench system the city turns into, constantly dealing with ice underfoot, and then navigating the piles of dog shit, cigarette butts and slush remaining after melt (I'm hoping Quebec is better than MTL in this respect). Also there's a lot of rockfalls due to no money being put into stabilizing slopes. There's also not a lot of shows, niche museums or other live performances as it's a smaller city. Transport isn't a big issue as they have a pretty good car-share.

In terms of climate change, Quebec City is vulnerable to flooding. It is downstream of all the Great Lakes water control systems, so a heavy precipitation year in Ontario/Michigan/Manitoba/Wisconsin means deliberately flooding areas along the St-Laurent.

If you're not visibly white, I would recommend a long visit before any commitment. Quebecers (de souche) have a reputation for being blatantly, systemically, and institutionally racist. This is far beyond the "pooh-poohed for not speaking French" issue that some white people complain about, and is coming more and more to a head as non-white immigration continues to affect QC.

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by unemployable »

too cold

white belt
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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by white belt »

LetsRetireYoung wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:30 am
So, achieving the PR status is easy, once you actually get here. I moved here on a work transfer - make sure to research your options. Fair warning, Canada discriminates based on age, but if you have the right skills and/or work experience, I think you'll be able to get in. Once you get your PR, maintaining it is easy - it's permanent. I'm playing it extra safe and spending 2 more years in Canada: you must spend 3 years within the country to apply for citizenship.
I listened to a podcast episode awhile back with an expert on Canadian immigration for Americans (I think it was Radical Personal Finance*). He said that the younger and more educated you are the easier immigration will be, with age becoming a negative in the calculation once you hit 30. I think it has something to do with Canada wanting young people to pay into the tax system for more years and also procreate. I believe it's also easier for young women to immigrate than men due to the procreation preference.

My guess as to why moving to Canada isn't a more popular lean-FIRE strategy is because most people can't reach financial independence before 30 and because many people don't like cold weather. Also in general, relocation means kneecapping one's social capital, which is why it isn't universally popular.

What are the tax implications of a US/Canadian dual-citizenship?

* = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUTY9f0lbaI

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by white belt »

LetsRetireYoung wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:28 am
6. The second-cheapest city is Quebec City. You can rent an all-included one-bedroom apartment for just $595 CAD ($481 USD) - everyone in Quebec moves simultaneously on July 1 (a fun local tradition), so I'm not sure if the leftover apartment I got in September was average or if I'm actually overpaying hahaha. For that money, I ended up getting a pretty spacious apartment with incredibly fast internet, on the second floor of a brick building (by which I {...}mean this is not a random basement apartment), and just a 15-minute walk away from the beautiful tourist district.

[...]

I hope this post helps put Canada, and especially Quebec, and especially especially Quebec City :lol: , on people's radar. I'm already here - and I hope more lean-FIRE fans move here. Just imagine how many more lentils you'll be able to buy once you slash your rent + utilities + internet down to just $481 USD, eh? :lol:
FWIW, ~$500 USD for all-inclusive rent is doable for a studio/1BR in many parts of the USA, to include a ton of cities in the midwest and southeast with populations in the 200-500k range. I did that in a few cities in the southeast. If you're willing to split a house with a roommate or two, you can even get living costs down to $300-400 while also getting yard space and larger common areas.

For healthcare, ACA is fully subsidized if your income is low enough, although my guess is the quality of care may be better in Canada (I've only had to rely on employee-provided healthcare up to this point so I'm not sure).

I guess what I'm getting at is it seems like that sort of lifestyle and spending is replicable in many parts of the USA.

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by Kriegsspiel »

I'm sure the Canadiens appreciate you moving there to not work or spend money and consume their subsidized healthcare :lol:

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by chenda »

white belt wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:11 pm
I believe it's also easier for young women to immigrate than men due to the procreation preference.
I'd be surprised if that's anywhere official policy but I can see the advantages. Countries with a women > men ratio probably have many advantages over the reverse.

The Quebec deal seems pretty good but I wonder how politically secure the rent controls are long term.

white belt
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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by white belt »

chenda wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:06 pm
I'd be surprised if that's anywhere official policy but I can see the advantages. Countries with a women > men ratio probably have many advantages over the reverse.
Every year for at least the past 20 years, Canada has allowed more women than men to immigrate: https://www.statista.com/statistics/446 ... by-gender/

Of course, I don't know how much of that is correlation vs causation.

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by chenda »

white belt wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:13 pm
Every year for at least the past 20 years, Canada has allowed more women than men to immigrate: https://www.statista.com/statistics/446 ... by-gender/
Interesting, I wonder how this compares with other countries.

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by sky »

When I visited Quebec, I was astounded that in a supposedly bilingual country, the high number of people who were completely ignorant of the other language.

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by LetsRetireYoung »

2Birds1Stone wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:04 am
For me it would be WAY too cold, and it looks like they get a lot of rain/snow most of the year. Beautiful from the pictures however!
unemployable wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:45 pm
too cold
You guys. :) That's the best part - you don't have to spend the winter here! Personally, once I get my Canadian citizenship, I'll spend 6 months each year hanging out in cheap tropical countries, like all the other Canadian snowbirds. I could do that right now (US passport + Canadian permanent residence) but I want to get my Canadian citizenship ASAP, which means spending 2 winters here.

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by LetsRetireYoung »

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:34 pm
I'm sure the Canadiens appreciate you moving there to not work or spend money and consume their subsidized healthcare :lol:
I'll choose not to view that as a personal attack. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I was one of the best in my field, and I singlehandedly created thousands of low-qualification jobs in Canada. I've paid my debt to society, eh.

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Re: Quebec City: the perfect lean-FIRE location?

Post by LetsRetireYoung »

white belt wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:11 pm
I listened to a podcast episode awhile back with an expert on Canadian immigration for Americans (I think it was Radical Personal Finance*). He said that the younger and more educated you are the easier immigration will be, with age becoming a negative in the calculation once you hit 30. I think it has something to do with Canada wanting young people to pay into the tax system for more years and also procreate. I believe it's also easier for young women to immigrate than men due to the procreation preference.

My guess as to why moving to Canada isn't a more popular lean-FIRE strategy is because most people can't reach financial independence before 30 and because many people don't like cold weather. Also in general, relocation means kneecapping one's social capital, which is why it isn't universally popular.

What are the tax implications of a US/Canadian dual-citizenship?

* = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUTY9f0lbaI
I believe the age thing starts hitting you on a downward slope, but I moved on a work permit when I was 33, and I made it in just fine haha. You just lose a few points for every year of age after a certain point: you can still qualify just fine if you have a degree, or work experience, or useful skills, or if you learn some French. You do not need to achieve FIRE before moving, and it is possible to move if you're over 30.

As for tax implications: US and Canada have a tax treaty. AFAIK, you pay taxes to the country in which you spent most of the year. You don't get double-taxed on your income. The only downside is that the treaty doesn't account for retirement accounts. You can keep and grow the retirement money (Roth or 401k) you had at the time of the move, but if you add more $ to them, or try to open a Canadian retirement account, then the other country (Canada and the US, respectively) will give you a hard time. That part sucks, and hopefully will get resolved in future treaties, but it is what it is.

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