"how to talk to others" vs "this is ere"

[Alphaville]

i love this

[Alphaville]

To speak directly to your point in the first post, I don't think it's *possible* to create a "brochure about how to talk to people about ERE" that doesn't indicate at some level "this is ERE". If you look at the original Wheaton eco scale cartoon, it was conceived as a way to help permies talk to other people but hey! it also kinda gives the viewer the idea of "this is permaculture according to Paul Wheaton". I don't know if it's turned into a problem over there or not with people reading the scale and saying "hey but I have CFL's but also I have a food forest, so am I Eco 7 or 3??" I'm frankly struggling to think of what an informal, simple brochure would look like that gives people useful direction on how to "talk to others about ERE" without containing within it the potential for leading anyone astray into dangerous realms of unrooted theory. Could you mark up the wheaton table, or sketch a different one that is methodologically sound?

ok, i'm working on it. i started reviewing the discussion and history of the wheaton brochure earlier this morning. took them many years and iterations to achieve, if you read their thread, and some graphs were done before the finished one,

i got some work today, groceries and bike testing and such, plus family time, etc, but have put this in the churner and will process.

[Alphaville]

I think if trying to attract people to ERE methods, it's best to start by figuring out where their understanding and beliefs are currently, and work first on introducing the part of the concept that's most similar to what they already know/believe.

yes. this is selling. in the sense of persuading someone to embrace your idea.

the wheaton eco-levels were outlined to attract not belittle or alienate people.

i think #1 lesson to be remembered from the eco-level scale should be that.

[jacob]

So if I understand this correctly, which I'm not sure I do, we're now aiming for 3 different functions?

(For the purpose of describing these functions, I don't care so much about the form. Forms are mainly limited by my budget---I'm not running a major enterprise with regular access to 5-6 fig kickstarter funding like permies---and skills---I have zero drawing skills, also a big zero in terms of poems and singing.)

• ERE Wheaton table that shows people how to relate and meet people where they are instead of where one naively assumes they should be. (The majority of people, being normal, can and therefore will functionally assume that other people are just like them and communicate accordingly. They have no experience with being an outlier.)
• ERE WIRED videos that shows ERE-people how to communicate their way of life to other people depending on how much the audience knows. Note e.g. how my interview presentations of ERE change depending on who I'm talking to.
• ERE karate belts that gives people a concrete incremental skill set to strive for to get better at living a fulfilling life in balance with the world.

I'm not a huge fan of colorful belt-systems, but I do see why they were ultimately created when martial arts were introduced to the western world. Westerners like "individual achievement" and Comparing themselves to others. They like to Compile skills and tend to ignore the Coordination (total systems integration) until they have enough experience to realize that techniques are but a training tool and that belts mainly serve to hold the pants up and the jackets in. However, I'd also note that martial arts or martial arts students who have or come to have a wider perspective on fighting tend to shun the colorful belt systems. Several ways this can happen. Instead of having 10 Kyu and 10 Dan levels, they might instead revert to just a few, e.g. "Beginner", "Advanced", and "Expert" with people staying at one classification for many years. They might retain the tests, etc. but teach widely in the entire curriculum---this works in arts that are deep rather than broad. They might not show the "belt" (rank) on the uniform---instead you will have to find out for yourself both in terms of your own skills but also your opponent's when you fight. Being able to "know" yourself and your opponent is a skill in itself. You could use a table to assist... but beware of Goodhart's law! Passing tests or feats-of-strength does not necessarily mean you're any good when you hit the mat. In particular, martial arts that lacked a systematic franchised belt system would continually challenge each other including each others schools to see which student or master was better. They did this by fighting---not by comparing levels on a table.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

So sure, you can create some ERE karate belts... just be aware that a 12 year old black belt is not a very effective fighter regardless of their hard-earned belt. <- All that work is a good example of a Goodhart's law gone wrong.

A more generalized problem with "colorful belt"-thinking is confusing the map with the territory. That's Whitehead's "fallacy of misplaced concreteness". This is what causes some to drive their car into a lake because the GPS said so.

This means I am also against the idea of trying to reduce ERE to a poster-presentation although I'm intellectually curious to see what various people would suggest it looks like. My expectation would be that the poster session will end up looking like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant as people proceed to eliminate different parts of ERE to make it fit on their personal poster.

I hope I understood this correctly and that I wasn't commenting on some kind of straw-man.

PS: Ways around Goodhart's law is to keep "measures" like tables, teaching materials, MBTI test procedures, economic calculations, etc. secret from those being measured. However, eventually, the cat gets out of the bag. It is then on the measure-consumers to restrain themselves from abusing/gaming it. The measure-creators will already be working on a new measure.

PPS: I also agree with AH's sentiment which can be generalized to Bateson's comment that "a difference is something that makes a difference". Any tool that is rendered completely and utterly foolproof against any misuse whatsoever will end up being completely useless.

[AxelHeyst]

So we might say that an ERE color-belt mindset would look like:
"What Wheaton level are you? Let's see your WoG diagram. What's your household spend? What's your IR-Score? How many skillnodes are at Compute or higher?"

Whereas a "no measurements, let's spar/fight" mindset might look like:
"How did you lifestyle and/or psychological well-being do during the pandemic? How does your psychological well-being change during a major market dip? How do you handle a local-area natural disaster that takes the grid out for a week? What is your ecological footprint?* How do you respond if someone steals your stash and you have to "start over"? Do your friends know to call you to help them fix a clogged drain, navigate a delicate social situation, improvise a chicken coop out of junk in the backyard, make a poultice for a wound out of weeds? And do they know that you're happy and cheerful to help?"

*That sounds like a "measurement", but here we take it to be the best method we have for getting at one's negative impact on the world, which is directly related to one's "real" physical engagement with the world.

--

I'm not sure Alpha is necessarily asking for a color-belt system or saying it's a good approach, for what it's worth. I think he's saying "Hey the communication tool (Wheaton table) is being used as a color-belt system - that's not good! If people want both, fine make both, but make sure they are independent tools that are specifically serving those functions." Hammer with the hammer, fasten with the wrench.

[AxelHeyst]

Right on! Honestly I began this thread's discussion just frustrated (possibly related to going off carbs), but now I feel that I've thought through it all enough that my ideas are indeed getting stronger so I'm grateful for the dialogue. Now that it's happening in an appropriate place.

Where else on the internet can people disagree, get pissed, misunderstand each other a bit, build some strawmen, then kinda work through it and maybe have a productive end result, all without *actually* getting to the point of calling each other names, flaming, or actual hardcore trolling? Cheers.

[Alphaville]

I'm not sure Alpha is necessarily asking for a color-belt system or saying it's a good approach, for what it's worth. I think he's saying "Hey the communication tool (Wheaton table) is being used as a color-belt system - that's not good! If people want both, fine make both, but make sure they are independent tools that are specifically serving those functions." Hammer with the hammer, fasten with the wrench.

yes!

--

also, still churning, but have to do other stuff, call parents, etc... many processes

meanwhile... would you mind very much posting me the video link & approx time code from the stoa where jacob talks about consumer to postconsumer? asking because im a bit pressed for time and cant search rn, but would help tons, and you seem to have it at fingertips. i think i could work an outline from it.

So if I understand this correctly, which I'm not sure I do, we're now aiming for 3 different functions?

i don't know right how many things "the public" wants.

but if i were to contribute to something in "the proper order", i'd first help finish a user-friendly proselytizing brochure that does not generate too much static/ too many artifacts.

there seems to be a "popular demand" for other things. but... maybe do them later? since the older project is older and closer to finish. but we can feed back observations of recent n-effects into the original project.

(For the purpose of describing these functions, I don't care so much about the form. Forms are mainly limited by my budget---I'm not running a major enterprise with regular access to 5-6 fig kickstarter funding like permies---and skills---I have zero drawing skills, also a big zero in terms of poems and singing.)

i've said this elsewhere, but i don't think anyone here is saying "gimme" or "jacob do this for me." if anyone is treating you like a waiter, i have not seen them.

if anything, people are eager to contribute/give back, as you can see from quadalupe's graphs. he didn't charge you anything for those graphs and i'm sure would't mind making others if asked.

me, i have experience with mass communications and creating educational materials, so i can contribute some free labor, as i've been trying to do from the start. i'm not a designer though, i am the person who coordinates with the creatives, so i'm part creative, part technical.

in order to prevent misunderstandings and strawmen i'd like to offer this categorization of my mental processes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divergent_thinking

i run on playfulness and positive mood. this doesn't make me "the party set." this is just how my brain works best and how creatives work also. and this is how people can get distracted and go off a crazy tangent, but it's not difficult to rope that horse and bring it back to the corral when there's a clear purpose.

per that description i am also a satisficer not an optimizer. which means i don't aim for "perfect," much less from the start. rather than solve a difficult equation in a single stroke, i tend to work via successive approximations (this is also why i prefer empirical efforts to ideal abstractions i guess).

of course in a proper team you have a mix of methods and talents and perspectives. so i'm not saying that everyone should be like me. rather, i'm asking that in this group i'm understood as i am, so that i can contribute the missing bits of poetry and song and communications experience to the project.

tldr think of rpg games and the different characters/classes/abilities required in a successful campaign. you have free players, no charge, no kickstart required.

[Toska2]

Listen to them
Understand them
Comprehend ere is not for everyone
Ask leading questions
Offer alternatives that may include ere.
Be ok if nothing seems to "stick"

[AxelHeyst]

meanwhile... would you mind very much posting me the video link & approx time code from the stoa where jacob talks about consumer to postconsumer? asking because im a bit pressed for time and cant search rn, but would help tons, and you seem to have it at fingertips.

I don't, but it's pretty easy to find: search for "stoa jacob" then scrub till you see a slide with "nonconsumer" at the top, with a line graph and a diagram with a diamond thingy in the upper right. Then back up a few minutes. If you see four big bar charts, you've gone too far.

[Alphaville]

I don't, but it's pretty easy to find: search for "stoa jacob" then scrub till you see a slide with "nonconsumer" at the top, with a line graph and a diagram with a diamond thingy in the upper right. Then back up a few minutes. If you see four big bar charts, you've gone too far.

cool, i can scrub to it-- thanks!

--

ETA: it's at the beginning!! (my brain remembered it in a different order)

ok. i might have to rewatch it all anyway, because i think i spot the problem in the video itself. sunday matinée

[fiby41]

[Alphaville]

@fiby41 that is a tasty looking plate...

those are good images to illustrate the postconsumer end of things (what makes consumers say "that's crazy!")

[jacob]

Strongly disagree.

These are terrible images, at least if you want to leave a good impression on (9-5 work, going to restaurants, traveling to Thailand, sipping red wine, look at my new Audi)-consumers. The three fast-take memes that I get the most flack for in the mainstream are lentil soup, clothes washing, and DIY detergent: "A miserable life of sacrifice, eating soup and handwashing just so I don't have to work?! No thanks, this guy is crazy. I'd rather be fatFIRE." (walks over to the nearest real estate or coaching seminar to buy a simple $3000 howto course on quick&easy riches)

These memes fit better on a motivational poster in the cubicle of the admin doing TPS reports under a headline like "You don't want to end up like this, do you?"

They do work but only a small subset who are already into alternative technology and ubersustainable living. Here the reaction will be "it's nice to finally put a name on something I've been doing for the past 30 years".

In terms of talking to mainstream what works better is to identify a period of their life they actually enjoyed even if their spending was low. Typically as students but it could also be that one adventure they went on before they settled into "middle class purgatory". Then explain that if they had kept spending that little with their new salary instead of getting on the hedonic/Diderot treadmill, they would now have a lot of money and the ability to work when and on what they wanted, negotiate better deals with the boss, being able to walk away. Mmmm money is nice!

And that if they had kept improving that lifestyle instead of switching track to improve upon a suburban lifestyle, they would now be much better at it... probably traveling for real instead of being tourists, hanging out with friends, doing craaazy/interesting/educated things instead of getting their joy from buying new cars or kitchen upgrades.

This is much better: https://nomoreharvarddebt.com/2014/01/2 ... year-olds/

Please don't remake the mistakes I made. If there were three things I could scrub from the history of ERE "marketing" it would be the lentil soup recipe from grad school, the clothes in a bucket sentence from the book, and any association with home made laundry detergent (which used to be a thing in PF blogging 10 years ago).

[Alphaville]

Strongly disagree.

okay man but dont forget to appreciate the personal effort he made while you suggest improvements.

again this is not being "the party set". this is acknolwedging the other person as a human being with emotion. same as the pleasantries one might exhange in the threads. "hello, i see you. and how is your project?"

please note i didn't say "yeah, this is what to show the consumer! let's print 1000!"

i said the images are meaningful to the postconsumer. i also said it makes consumers say "that's crazy!" so, same thing you said, less harsh?

i noticed in a different post you mentioned the things you hate the most are managing and selling.

as someone who sometimes manages people on projects... flogging is demotivating. then everyone throws their hands up in the air, and everything falls back on your shoulders. a bit like the e-myth where the owner has to do all.

generally my role is between the client who wants something, like you want "good images". and then as a writer i translate for the creatives who thrive on positive feedback and don't mind creating iterations of a product or design.

[jacob]

Memes (and ads) work by overriding the formal/rational operational mind by associating the image with a feeling/sense that goes directly for the reptilian or mammalian part of the brain.

If the person already has a formal framework, the memes feeling get placed into exactly that. E.g. "lentils"=bad, "handwashing"=bad, "student memories"=good.

If the person has no formal framework, e.g. someone who learned all they know about politics from memes, the particulars of the meme will dominate the person's entire understanding (because there's little understanding to dominate). E.g. "ERE is all about lentil soup" (bad) or "MMM is all about hanging out at campfires in Ecuador" (good).

So in terms of "how to talk to others" keep in mind that you are trying to communicate ideas most people have zero framework for understanding(*). I literally had to walk CFPs and CFAs through the math of ERE to change their [rational] minds. They did not believe me. But they believed the math. The math is what made it possible for them to convince themselves.

(*) The idea that there's a good life outside of "buying" and "earning".

This is also why the book uses a giant hyper rational framework. It's a way to reach those who are rational enough to question their pre-existing dogma. That's a small group of people. Mostly INTJs.

But it's conceivable that the communication could also play on people's emotional registers.

Just be careful about which notes you're playing.

[Alphaville]

Memes (and ads) work by overriding the formal/rational operational mind by associating the image with a feeling/sense that goes directly for the reptilian or mammalian part of the brain.

yes. but good design can bridge the emotional and the rational into the intuitive. like the wheaton eco-levels poster.

If the person already has a formal framework, the memes feeling get placed into exactly that. E.g. "lentils"=bad, "handwashing"=bad, "student memories"=good.

If the person has no formal framework, e.g. someone who learned all they know about politics from memes, the particulars of the meme will dominate the person's entire understanding (because there's little understanding to dominate). E.g. "ERE is all about lentil soup" (bad) or "MMM is all about hanging out at campfires in Ecuador" (good).

right. this is why we need to make a good goddamn brochure! which you currently lack. and without kickstarters to boot. so you need to recruit and manage free labor contributors (if you want to actually have a product you can't make by yourself with your equipment, budget, and skills.)

So in terms of "how to talk to others" keep in mind that you are trying to communicate ideas most people have zero framework for understanding. I literally had to walk CFPs and CFAs through the math of ERE to change their [rational] minds. They did not believe me. But they believed the math. The math is what made it possible for them to convince themselves.

and yet most people operate on heuristics and biases most of the time.

if you want to prove that you're right you're going to have to walk everyone personally through the math of ere. then you'll end up with a handful of math people, being right and mathy.

if you want to change people's behaviors, you need to change their heuristics and biases.

This is also why the book uses a giant hyper rational framework. It's a way to reach those who are rational enough to question their pre-existing dogma. That's a small group of people. Mostly INTJs.

and then you're stuck with them, knowing that your subculture is right and everyone else is a mop or a sociopath or a muggle or a drone or whatever.

But it's conceivable that the communication could also play on people's emotional registers.

Just be careful about which notes you're playing.

the same applies to managing people. be careful about which notes you're playing. don't club them on the head and then expect "good performance"--even with pay--even with high pay! much less for free. the world of work is not danish grad school

anyway looks like sunday matinée at the stoa will have to be postponed as i now must use energy to work with the lady at cleaning house and doing laundry.

[jennypenny]

I'd argue that you don't need anything sophisticated to recruit people at the bottom of the scale since people like MMM and even Dave Ramsey are pulling in the FI-ish 'there's a better way' targets.

That said, I'd also argue you don't need anything fancy to recruit people who are in the middle tier (or farther up other scales like permaculture, etc) because they understand the 'systems' talk and don't need it explained through memes.

Is there ever a need to convince someone @level 5 on any scale that systematizing their efficiencies is a good thing? I would think they've already learned that lesson, even if they don't know where to begin. <<--- that's the point at which most people arrive here

I'm always impressed by people who arrive as complete noobs and stick around. They're rare though. Most are either noobs re:FI but not with other things (like the permies people), or have come here from MMM or bogleheads looking for more nuanced guidance.


side note: If someone can't understand what longtimers/upper tier people are talking about, it's not the responsibility of the 'elders' to make their positions more clear; it's incumbent on the traveler to find their way up the mountain so to speak. Elders give advice ('read x and y'), but it's wasted effort to explain the intricacies of systems theory to someone just discovering ERE. Gnawing out where you are and what step is next -- instead of having it handed to you in pamphlet form -- makes for a more rewarding and ultimately long-lasting conversion. It's the people who come here asking a million questions instead of reading the book or digging deeper into the path to ERE themselves that end up flabbergasted that anyone would make their own soap.


tl;dr Building bridges is cheating and leads to a more shallow understanding of ERE.

[jacob]

right. this is why we need to make a good goddamn brochure! which you currently lack. and without kickstarters to boot. so you need to recruit and manage free labor contributors (if you want to actually have a product you can't make by yourself with your equipment, budget, and skills.)

I think you're presuming that "my needs" = "your wants"?

Or perhaps more accurately, I'm not part of the "we" here---I'm just doing potential damage control.

I don't really have any interest in running a permies style operation. Permies can go wide because the worst that can happen to a beginning gardener if they didn't understand all the intricate principles of permaculture is that their tomato plants die. IOW, permies can throw a tremendous amount of "mud on the wall" (in different kinds of presentations) in correct expectation that some will stick and they eventually get a few who truly understand the principles. Those who didn't might have spent a few hundred bucks on ebooks or posters or playing cards, etc. but at least they got their hands on some plants and that is also good. There's no systematic downside risk anywhere.

ERE being a lifestyle design is rather more consequential in terms of the worst things that can happen to those individuals of a wide audience who don't understand what ERE is about. The responsible thing is therefore to be a lot more conscientious about the dissemination. I'd rather not call out particular people, but lets say that in the early 2010s, there was a lot of "buy my $79 ebook (insert affiliate) which convincingly sells 25yos who are trying to build a career that they can stop bothering because they can just lifehack their way into spending all day on the beach by moving to Chiang Mai and setting up an automated e-business that pays monthly monies"-operators making a quick buck on the hopeful masses. "Your monetized youtube-channel will become your retirement account"-stuff. You can easily imagine the sales-pitches and the photoshopping that made this happen. You see similar stuff happening today with the FIRE-movement. People selling the dream in the form of simplistic $500-seminars in coaching, investing, and real-estate to the unwashed masses. This has ruined careers or at least cost people years of mistakes. There's substantial systematic downside risk here.

I have no interest in getting rich or famous that way.

This is why I prefer to go deep rather than wide. After 2011, I set up a virtual moat to deter mainstream followers. There's no easy way to reach and get information about ERE unless the person knows enough to figure out how. ERE is famous in the field... but it's not a celebrity in the mainstream like some FIRE advocates have become. I'd rather influence the world by spending my time on 10 people who understand ERE really well than talk directly to 300,000 people about which index funds always go up. Influencing potential influencers. Using the network effect. Not becoming the president, but writing the book the president bases their decisions on.

[Frita]

Go, Jacob! ERE is appealing because of the lack of selling or calls to join-the-club of some self-absorbed guru wannabe. I pretty much do my own thing (influenced by my family, motivated by never wanting to sell out my ideals for a paycheck, and fueled by my needs for learning and variety) especially now that I left the careerism-life mission thing behind, and could care less about recruiting or impressing people.

Lately I get a flavor of leveled game playing on the forum. Or is it the proselytizing fever of a new AA member or evangelical convert?

Well-said, @JennyPenny.

[Alphaville]

I think you're presuming that "my needs" = "your wants".

oh no! i misunderstood that you wanted a better brochure like the permies have, and just lacked the means to do so. and so i volunteered to help provide.

me i just want to live like a creative peasant in a tiny apartment in a large city. sounds quite paradoxical. nevertheless i will attempt.

Or perhaps more accurately, I'm not part of the "we" here---I'm just doing potential damage control.

got it. i thought you were managing a team towards a goal--my bad.

I don't really have any interest in running a permies style operation.

yeah no no lol, i never presumed this. just that their brochure on "how to talk to people" was the inspiration for your chart, is all, and you even called the levels/units "wheatons," and so i thought... eh, it doesn't matter at this point.

ERE being a lifestyle design is rather more consequential in terms of the worst things that can happen to those individuals of a wide audience who don't understand what ERE is about. The responsible thing is therefore to be a lot more conscientious about the dissemination.

i 100% agree with this. which is why i offered to add conscientiousness to the brochure design. which i thought i spotted spewing a bit of black smoke. but no worries.

[ extensive references to marketing scams] I have no interest in getting rich or famous that way.

oh lol THAT never crossed my mind. it would be so dissonant with everything else you say or do. i understand the reticence though. once bitten...

I'd rather influence the world by spending my time on 10 people who understand ERE really well

ah, in other words, i think what you want is to run ere grad school? which would make sense and fit your skills, budget and resources.

also i can see why the forum would grate: it's k-12 and college and gradschool plus labs plus spammers and scammers all in one place. so, i understand the frustration with having to explain and re-explain and re-explain things (and so why i offered to help make a brochure that preempts the need for repeat explanation of the brochure btw).

if i may make one last suggestion (just a divergent idea thrown out there, borrowed from the heath brothers on "shaping the path") you might perhaps want to run a private forum for theory people that you select from the big forum by invitation? a kind of seminar, or ongoing grad school. this might be an easy way to fence off interlopers, marketers, noobs, and well-intentioned fools (eg yours truly).

actually, one more thing, not brochure-related, just from my critical thinking hemisphere: i see that there is a ton more heft and clarity in your ideas of consumer to postconsumer development, than there is in the wheatons chart. it's also a lot more elegant, in the mathematical/logical sense, offering an organic way to derive the ranking and levels issue. i'm not wanting to argue this further, or make any materials out of it, just putting the idea out there.

anyway, i shall go back to my empirical explorations into the postconsumer urban art realm, which is where my boho heart resides, and i'll leave the ere-construction and academic side of things to others.