On deleting journals, posts, and accounts

[Mister Imperceptible]

That is not entirely accurate. Those who were most in fear (which went somewhat beyond cancelling) just faded away quietly which was somewhat smarter given the fact that almost nobody noticed.

I can understand that 2020 might be viewed as just a reversal of fortune from 2016 so I will not minimize what others felt in 2016.

But being told what to think, having one’s reputation smeared, and threatened with permanent unemployment are things I associate with fear.

[Alphaville]

@Alphaville - If I spend an hour or two answering a question

yeah that is a huge waste of labor, especially since this is your cause.

at times i've made a big effort to reply or engage someone, but i view my answers here as ephemeral, whereas you're really building something.

and the context to your answers, while it can be illuminating, might actually be hiding your work from public view--e.g. one may not have the time or inclination to read everybody's journals for any number of reasons, and your work disappears there.

This seems like a good switch. You could write those independent answers/essays elsewhere and place a link in any thread. If the thread goes poof, oh well.

yes! without necessarily being articles, they could live in a thread called "jacob's answers" where the original question is quoted for posterity. then keep other people from posting there, so reply must be via quote / crosslink but the thread is all @jacob's writing (plus the quoted questions).

would work kinda like an advice column... but within the forum.

i like this idea of a self-contained corpus of replies regardless of whichever form it takes.

[jacob]

@MI - The concerns given to me in 2016/17 went somewhat beyond "cancelling". As it turned out, people avoided drawing attention to themselves and things turned out fine. Let's maybe learn a lesson from that and leave it at that.

[jacob]

yes! without necessarily being articles, they could live in a thread called "jacob's answers" where the original question is quoted for posterity. then keep other people from posting there, so reply must be via quote / crosslink but the thread is all @jacob's writing (plus the quoted questions).

would work kinda like an advice column... but within the forum.

i like this idea of a self-contained corpus of replies regardless of whichever form it takes.

You're basically reinventing the blog format. Obviously if I were to do that it would not be about ERE matters. Been there, done that.

[suomalainen]

@alpha and CS, not to speak for jacob, but the sense I got from his posts in this thread is that he doesn't get much from being everyone's sage. He does get stuff from the community - the two way street IS the benefit. For myself, I also benefit from more than just jacob's thoughts although of course he occasionally has something interesting to say too.

[Alphaville]

You're basically reinventing the blog format. Obviously if I were to do that it would not be about ERE matters. Been there, done that.

so, if i understood 5) correctly, you're thinking of just not posting much here any longer? cuz that would be a damn shame.

anyway, i've enjoyed my year here, so i thank you for providing a good place to reason on the internet, regardless of how you decide to take things forward.

(but again, i think the current focus is blowing a few personal dramas out of proportion, and if you lock this thread and let a week pass all will soon be forgotten and things can return to normal... till the next drama ensues cuz the internet will internet )

[theanimal]

To echo suo, Jacob's thoughts as wells as others are often so valuable because they evolve during the threads themselves. Look at the Semi-ERE threads, the Yields and Flows thread or any of the Wheaton Level threads. Rarely are ideas presented in complete format in one post but they evolve over time. Hence one of the reasons why Jacob is not interested in just providing answers in a vacuum because this forum is a discussion and a community not a place of solitary proclamations and dissertations. It is also why people are not pleased with the mass deletion of posts, these posts don't exist in a vacuum and if you've contributed AND gleaned from the benefit of others it is disrespectful and unappreciative to do so. There's a somewhat similar attitude that used to (maybe still does?) prevail in Alaska in that people arrive here see all the great wilderness and then take a hostile stance against anyone else trying to move to the state. "Now that I'm here, the door should be shut!"

There are plenty of people who look at the backlogs. Like Mathiverse, I have read almost every thread where either the title has interested me or it has had over 10-15 posts. And probably close to once a week I am doing a google search looking for information that was posted previously and/or information that is more pertinent to my life now.

[Alphaville]

speaking of backlogs, and effort, i went to look at my first posts here, and some were about bathroom pipes in your alaska house build. but the thread just stopped. how did you ever solve it? no need to derail this subject, but if you could point me to the answer it will be appreciated cuz now im curious to see what happened in the end.

[Mister Imperceptible]

But being told what to think, having one’s reputation smeared, and threatened with permanent unemployment are things I associate with fear.

I will add these things were a concern for me since 2018, not 2020, so I have no expectation that things will get better just by keeping my head down. I have already been dismissed from one assignment, and was threatened with being expelled from industry permanently. In other job interviews I have been forewarned that people are expected to maintain an orthodox political opinion, despite my not bringing up politics or expressing a political opinion. This was not some fear that never manifested. It was already happening before 2020.

If keeping my head down is a requirement, that to me is an indication that things are getting worse.

I think the decision by people to nuke their posts is a result of hearing their concerns dismissed or denied by their fellow ordinary people while this thought purge is ongoing just because it seems politically advantageous to those doing the dismissing and denying in the short term.

[Alphaville]

wow, i just found @bigato's journal without @bigato.

i thought he had just stepped away temporarily...

[jacob]

To reiterate and summarize, in my view, the forum is a community for mutual support and deep exploration of various ERE related topics. The potential duration and depth of threads goes beyond what's possible to do on a blog and sometimes I learn something new. In many ways, this method is more powerful than what can be achieved by one person writing well-thought out letters-to-the-editor type articles. The possibility of learning something from that kind of exploration, the possibility of eventually turning this community into something more, and a somewhat fading belief that we have something unique here, is my reason for keeping the forum going. What we have here is essentially a research department, like a small think tank. In CCCCCC-terms, because we know and respect each other, what we have is the ability to Coordinate and Create knowledge as opposed to just Copying or Computing answers to random noob questions as one might do in a facebook group.

I do not enjoy being "the manager" or some kind of sagacious "agony aunt", nor do I enjoy the "adult day care" aspects of dealing with the occasional shitstorm and making everyone get along. I think these aspects of my role here is making me cynical about my fellow humans---it's all so fucking predictable by now---but I have deemed the benefits to be worth the costs.

However, insofar scenario(5) is going to be the new normal and the exploration effort is going to be subject to arson on a regular basis or the general attitude changes to one of "just hanging out" or following the natural inclination for minimal engagement since any extra effort might eventually get torched anyway, I just wouldn't have the same motivation to keep going. I stopped blogging because I didn't think I had more to say on the blog. I can't imagine I would continue posting much here if I felt that my efforts weren't a part of building something bigger than what's possible writing letters-to-the-editor type articles. Of course, the forums would stay up insofar others just wanted to hang out doing random Q&A.

[daylen]

yeah that is a huge waste of labor, especially since this is your cause.

I sense that for a decent sub-population, the value added to the forum from posting time/effort follows an S-curve (so long that the post length does not scale up too quickly, resulting in more of a bell curve whereby info is too dilute for most readers after some point). So, for instance, ten 5-min posts are about equivalent to a single 30 min post for such a sub-population. Partially because a 30-min post is likely to deviate to a much greater degree from the shower thoughts of the reader. More so for 1-hour posts unless the conversation looses momentum by then, perhaps.

Though, from the perspective of a poster, this may not be seen as labor but rather as practice for answering questions concerning one's own life.

[Scott 2]

@jacob - the term I've heard thrown around in tech communities is scenius


This is the nature of electronic forums. People come and go. Some do it quietly. Some not. The latter are probably lurking. The forum itself will go through some number of iterations to eventually die as well. To expect otherwise is unrealistic.

[Alphaville]

I sense that for a decent sub-population, the value added to the forum from posting time/effort follows an S-curve[…] Though, from the perspective of a poster, this may not be seen as labor but rather as practice for answering questions concerning one's own life.

ah, yes. although the accumulated effort is different (for me anyway, ymmv) due to focus requirement. i.e. im positing that the real scarce resources is focus not minutes.

e.g. i can type a 5-minute answer during a pomodoro break. it's nice! a relief from other labors: recreational! (i was just working on some heavy stuff, i came by for a little, chat).

but a 30-min answer is a pomodoro of its own. a 2-hour answer is a whole pomodoro block! (there goes my morning)

like you, for me thinking out problems is "practice," although for me it's more practice at problem solving than at answering proper. plus, writing integrates knowledge. so even if my answer is ignored i get to "keep something," so to speak, i get to sharpen my own learning process.

but for @jacob, ere is his life's work... so it's different perspective altogether. this is his immortality project. so i understand his greater frustration (although he's clearly not the only one frustrated).

anyway, i wish him and everyone else here success. bump in the road, keep going forward.

[Quadalupe]

To reiterate and summarize, in my view, the forum is a community for mutual support and deep exploration of various ERE related topics

I'm mostly a lurker (since I don't feel like I have a lot of useful insights to add), but I agree with this view. I lurk here because of the deep analysis of various ERE topics, and the great community aspect. I don't know of another place where so many intelligent people from all walks of life discuss such a wealth of different topics. To be honest, I feel bit sad that forumites feel either so threatened or miffed by jacob's policy that they want to delete everything out of fear or anger. But then again, I enjoyed their contributions while they lasted, and am grateful for their presence up until now.

Finally, I guess that 'panta rei', people come and go. And we also got a good influx of new forumites like Alphaville*, AxelHeyst, Hristo and Kipling (and many more I forgot to mention). So hopefully the forum will go on for now!


* I find it hilarious that your name is capitalized while you never use capitals anywhere else

[Alphaville]

* I find it hilarious that your name is capitalized while you never use capitals anywhere else

i think i registered with a laptop, but i type with my thumbs these days. getting in and out of caps on a tablet is arthritis-inducing (and i hate autocorrect).

when i finish rigging my desktop (work in progress) i might resume full keyboard action, and caps shall return.

but also... i always liked e.e. cummings

[Biscuits and Gravy]

Imagine if these forums didn't exist.

I did, and it was a gut punch. Thank you for everything you do, Jacob.

[Frita]

A friend who recently passed away described the late 1960s as a time when it felt like everything—mankind, the country, the world, the planet, the family, the whole shittery— was falling apart. Since I was young, I don’t have any memory of the experience but suspect our current time may have a similar vibe. Does this have anything to do with our forum community’s chaos?

Edited to link this article: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/arch ... ca/616581/

[ffj]

Since I am somewhat responsible for this thread I feel I need to explain my actions.

First of all, I apologize to anyone I have offended. I wasn't trying to be dramatic and disrespect any of you, and my decision was brewing for several months before I pulled the trigger.

So what prompted me? Lots of reasons, but mainly that our culture has changed to the point that mobs are given free reign if they serve a purpose, and they have the tools readily available to turn anybody's life upside-down. I have watched for five years now otherwise normal people absolutely go insane over anything Trump related and woe to the person who has voted for or defended him. This insanity has led to egregious behaviors by unhinged people to which I would prefer not to fall prey.

The final straw was when the courts refused to review evidence of election irregularities in the presidential race. I am not here to argue the election was "stolen" but in my opinion there was ample evidence to warrant the performance of an audit, but what I saw was the courts punting on the issue. We had unlimited resources and time to investigate Russian collusion but transparency of our election process was apparently too much to ask. The result is the winning side has become quite arrogant in their desire to purge and deprogram and put their enemies on lists for future reference.

I left myself vulnerable on this site. That was my doing, partly through early decisions not realizing where I was heading here, and partly because I just didn't know better. Also, I wanted to make my journal interesting, hence the pictures and personal information readily available. I think I succeeded but that comes at a cost that any amateur sleuth who feels morally righteous can punish me for my beliefs. There was a defining moment when I wanted to show you guys my finished exterior of the house and it really made me uncomfortable. I just couldn't do it.

Now for some push-back. I've read all of the responses.

The material that I nuked was mine. I'm the one who spent hours photographing and documenting and writing and if any of you got anything out of that then I am honored. But, I, and anybody else should have agency over their contributions. Situations change, people change, and their might be a damn good reason someone needs to disappear. You can argue whether my case merits that response and apparently Jacob has taken that ability away for future respondents. Has anybody considered what that does for potential contributors? Is that a motivator? I'm guessing for ultra-safe content. Something to think about.

Regarding my responsibility to contribute: I did contribute for 10 years. Enough said.

Similarly, remarks of adolescent behavior and immaturity and being afraid to back up your remarks and being stupid enough to share too much information. Being able to read the room doesn't make you weak but I do apologize for screwing up the threads for context. Part of it was just me blanking on that detail because I personally never read old threads as I am always looking forward. But I understand that wasn't cool. I am sorry for that.

Hope this helps. We have a weird and unique group here that is invaluable to other weirdos. Hopefully these roadblocks make us stronger.

[Ego]

Okay, the plan worked. He's back. Let's lock this sucker before we lose anyone else.


.... Welcome back!