A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

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classical_Liberal
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by classical_Liberal »

@jacob
Very interesting article. I'll have to read the book now too. Have you read it, or the previous books from the trilogy?

The discussion in the article parallels some thoughts I've been having over the past year or so about the need for meaning beyond personal and/or temporal satisfaction. Kind-of a failure in existential thought in my personal sphere given the fate of the world. Religion, of course, being one that many groups have historically found as a solution to this problem. It's one Camus (one of my favs) hated. My personal problem, being a modern agnostic, is that I just can't buy into the various religious "stories". How can one derive meaning from fiction (at least partially so), when the group providing it, takes it as serious nonfiction? and then often misses the point I see in it.

I found Jordan Peterson's take on religious (or even secular) stories having meaning, even if one doesn't believe in them as factual, as helpful. They don't have to be "real" to help provide meaning. There impact is "real" enough. I don't agree with all his stuff and don't want this to turn into a debate about JP, but I think his Maps of Meaning hypothesis is very in line with what Kingsnorth is saying he has found, personally, at least as expressed in that article.

A take away from my personal journey down this path is that there actually are modern variations of older religions that have held more true to the "stories" that guide. Also, some that are open to the possibility of more agnostic world views towards the idea of "God", yet hold true to the stories nonetheless. I've actually been considering a journal post about this (ie what I've found), but it's still such a work in progress I'm hesitant.

daylen
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by daylen »

@c_L

Jung took a similar approach to religious/fictional symbolism as JP. Basically starting with the premise that stories and symbols have a certain structure/consistency to them that is derived from something beyond our conscious experience (i.e. the collective unconsciousness of the human species). Forming a foundational premise for spirituality (i.e. institution-less religion) or at least this is how it appears to me. An abstraction/amalgamation of artistic/symbolic work hints at persistent patterns to our conscious experience. If one presumes that these patterns are not merely coincidental/superfluous, then one might be led to believe that such patterns emerge from some set of underlying replicators and hence provide a window into the mind of "God" or in more secular terminology "the human condition". Another option is to view such fictions as "metaphorically true" as Bret Weinstein does.

Either way, such a jump(*) is likely to be far more constructive and interesting when done in moderation than instinctual discounting/deconstruction of anything affiliated with religion.

(*) Some may call this a leap of faith.

classical_Liberal
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by classical_Liberal »

@Daylen
That doesn't surprise me as JP was heavily influenced by Jungian ideas. I don't think I've read original source work from Jung, but I do have a solid "philosophy/psychology textbook" understanding of his work and from that would agree with your assessment.
daylen wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:49 pm
Either way, such a jump(*) is likely to be more constructive when done in moderation than instinctual discounting/deconstruction of anything affiliated with religion.
One of the issues here, which I've found many on this forum, due to the prevailing personality types, don't need, and hence don't "grok" too well, is the idea of comfort and strength from affiliation, groups, collective thought. Back to the general idea of OP, this is why, for many, joining the local "green group" feels good while accomplishing little.

I'd suggest that if one can find a religious (or other) organization whose "stories" are congruent enough with personal values, and the human ideals behind those stories are congruent with making a better reality, the risk of taking a "leap of faith" might be well worth the benefits of the comfort and strength I wrote of above. IOW, Camus' philosophical suicide only applies to those who cannot maintain logic and independent personal thoughts within a larger context of general human truths. Believing there actually are some underlying human truths, seeking comfort and action with those who share that idea, isn't itself a horrible thing.

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fiby41
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by fiby41 »

I found this interesting because I did not know that:

Consumption | CO2 emissions in lbs
Air travel, 1 passenger from NY to SF | 1984
Human life, average 1 year | 11023
American life, average 1 year | 36156
Car, average fuel inclusive, 1 lifetime | 126000

Training one model
SOTA NLP model tagging | 13
with tuning and experimentation | 33486
Large Transformer model | 121
with neural architecture search | 394863

Source: Energy and Policy Considerations for Deep Learning in NLP, Strubel, Ganesh, McCallum- ACL 2019
Related: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11558

tonyedgecombe
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by tonyedgecombe »

I wonder what bitcoin is, I'm sure I read it takes more energy than mining gold now.

Hristo Botev
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Hristo Botev »

jacob wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:10 am
@HB - I just got a note that Kingsnorth has published a new book which led me to this interview which I think you'll find quite interesting. https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... lexandria/
I’m intrigued; a “Gen X Wendell Berry” struggling with how the Godlessness of modernity may be the primary driver of the environmental catastrophe we’re facing? Looks like I’ve got some reading to do. If his writing is anywhere close to being as fascinating as the Dreher interview makes it appear, this guy might hit prophet status in my estimation. Thanks for introducing him to me. I’ve requested his Wake novel from the library.

Hristo Botev
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Hristo Botev »

Oh man, this is going to be quite the epic rabbit hole for me: https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR ... _s8Vo00Xug
Last edited by Hristo Botev on Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

jacob
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by jacob »

I liked the Wake. It's written in an old-English pseudo-language which might seem close to incomprehensible at first but give it a chance and it should start making sense after 10-20 pages. Just imagine you're a time traveler going back in time visiting an alien (to you) world. I think that's part of the point.

While you're at the library, also get https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075B6XZ6M/ which was mentioned in the interview, and start search the forum for mentions of "Dark Mountain Project" or go to the site itself: https://dark-mountain.net/

7Wannabe5
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@classical_Liberal:

There is a very liberal, very green, semi-agnostic tradition in the Unitarian Universalist congregations which also roughly traces the line of Thoreau and Emerson. The particular Unitarian congregation with which I am most familiar has continuously been engaged in environmental activities and consciousness at spiritual level.

https://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/principles

Hristo Botev
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Hristo Botev »

I think Paul Kingsnorth is going to be a new ERE role model for me. WL7 in action, no? In this video interview he’s literally chopping water and carrying water.

7Wannabe5
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@fiby41:

Interesting, but isn’t it the case that training a model is more like designing/building an airplane as opposed to taking X airplane trips?

classical_Liberal
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by classical_Liberal »

@7WB5
Thanks. Nonevangelical branches of Quakerism is another good example.

7Wannabe5
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

True. The small town where I raised my kids was historically Quaker, and there were very cool old houses with Underground Railroad tunnels and hides-holes. Also, the Shaker spin-off was extremely egalitarian and wrote “Simple Gifts” which could be an ERE theme song.

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Lemur
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Lemur »

@Hristo

I watched that video too. Shared it on my journal.

Paul Kingsworth may or may not have ever heard of 'FIRE' or ERE for that matter. I find it excellent that he was just living his life, following his passion (environmentalism), and because of this...his lifestyle saved money as a side-effect...we can somewhat extrapolate that by the fact that he bought his home in cash...tries to live sustainability...probably paid his van in full-cash. I don't know if he has investments but probably has enough savings from speaking engagements and royalties / passive-income from writings.
Last edited by Lemur on Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

classical_Liberal
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by classical_Liberal »

@7WB5
Yeah, the more I learn, the more I'm impressed with Quakers. They were pro-women rights within churches since inception in the 1600's. That was, at the time, the rough equivalent of voting rights. That didn't become fashionable until 250 years later. They were anti slavery since inception, and many quakers had leadership roles in the underground railroad (as you pointed out). This was 100 years before abolitionism became popular. They were anti-war since inception, this didn't become popularized until the 1960's. They have been pro simple-living throughout the industrial revolution, and that's only coming into popularization today.

There's even more to the story. It's a pretty impressive track record for a group that most would consider as traditional and conservative.

7Wannabe5
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Right. And a good deal of progressive politics originated from religious beliefs associated with personal revelation and redemption. All men are created equal is a religious belief, not a rational statement.

Hristo Botev
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Hristo Botev »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:23 pm
My personal problem, being a modern agnostic, is that I just can't buy into the various religious "stories". How can one derive meaning from fiction (at least partially so), when the group providing it, takes it as serious nonfiction? and then often misses the point I see in it.
It's interesting that this thread has taken a bit of a religious turn. I don't want to personally get too far into the weeds on this (at least, not in this thread), but the question you pose above deserves some sort of response, and I'd just ask that you not build up religious straw men in your mind. The Bill Mahers of the world ("How can you follow such a genocidal God?!?!") would have you believe that us Christians and Jews don't understand that "Bible" means library--as in, the Bible isn't a book, it's a collection of books of all sorts of different genres (historical narrative, legal, poetry, wisdom literature, prophecy, apocalyptic literature, and letters), and each book must be read in the context of that genre and in the cultural contexts from which it was written and who it was directed to. And something can be "true" without being factually or historically or scientifically true.

tonyedgecombe
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by tonyedgecombe »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:08 am
And something can be "true" without being factually or historically or scientifically true.
No it can't. Bending the meaning of true or false to support your argument is the most basic logical fallacy.

7Wannabe5
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

It’s also the case that even on metaphorical or received wisdom level some of us apostates simply gut level prefer something more like the laughing Buddha to Christ on the cross. Not unlike reading Austen as more true than Bronte.

What would be the laughing Buddha take on climate change?

Hristo Botev
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Hristo Botev »

tonyedgecombe wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:49 am
No it can't. Bending the meaning of true or false to support your argument is the most basic logical fallacy.
That's my bad for introducing "What is truth?" into this thread. And I'm not making any argument about religion on this thread (and certainly not any about one faith being superior to another faith, or faith generally being superior to no faith). My point in response to @CL's (likely rhetorical) question about religious stories, as he journeys down a path about the need for meaning beyond personal and/or temporal satisfaction, is that he consider what some of the more serious believers of those various religions have to say about those stories. JP, Jung, et al. have really interesting things to say about the universality of those stories, as an academic exercise, but it's important to study what believing practitioners have to say about their beliefs in those stories. Also "fiction" vs. "non-fiction," as it applies at least to Biblical stories, is a false dichotomy.

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