Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

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Jason
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by Jason »

The environment is just the shiny, bright item with which the current era wants to immanentize their eschaton. In the 50's it was material wealth because didn't want to go back to bread lines. Now its clean air and justice for all because kids are broke and their critical theory doesn't pay the bills but gives them someone to blame. Twenty-five years from now the very few kids this generation does produce will be embarrassed when they are shown old IPHone videos of their statue beheading parents and will rebel by pimping out their space crafts. It's all mythology from that perspective. Henry Ford sold the end of horse shit. Google is selling the end of the ozone. It's not like the old generation's myth ends to the new generation's truth. It's just one generation wanting a new product with which to distract themselves and distinguish them from the past generation. The selling of the environment will go down as the greatest marketing campaign since plop plop fizz fizz. People believing they have to pay for the air they breathe. The only thing I"m buying is the companies making money on that tripe. Oh, but it's for future generations? The future generation they are too broke to produce. Sharing an Uber to get to Seattle as a political statement? OK.

Everything is political? Not sure. I'd sooner go with everything is sales. And Uber and self-driving and the AOC monogrammed Prius is just the future generation's uncle's Oldsmobile mass produced by the techno-oligarchy and their lobbyists as opposed to the Model T produced by Henry Ford and his lobbyists telling the people who are alive at that specific time in history what they need to buy in order to have meaningful lives.

Edit: I freely admit to not having an interest in the environment, but that does not mean I believe we aren't destroying it. Because I think we are. What I am saying is we had TR back in the day and then Rachel Carson but now it's a big ticket item because billionaires can monetize environmental concern in the similar manner that billionaires can monetize its destruction.

Alphaville
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by Alphaville »

i enjoy a good rant, and you really have some good jokes in there, but fiery rhetoric aside, the environmental problems brought on by the industrial revolution and its aftermath have always had their critics. it’s just that the problems keep getting bigger.

the great smog of london was in 1952, and the british followed with a couple of clean air acts
richard nixon created the epa in 1970
there was acid rain in manchester since the 1850s, but it became a popular issue globally in the 1970s/80s, and the usa got the clean air act updated to cover it in 1990 (first clean air act was 1963)
we’ve had car emissions standards since the 60s, and air pollution legislation since the 50s
...john muir was born in 1838, not 2005

it’s also a mistake to look at the problem solely from an american perspective. as countries industrialize and embrace the automobile you’re getting massive traffic jams in new delhi and sao paulo. air quality in beijing is atrocious. mexico city’s air quality is legendarily bad. other countries are following already. this only spells more calamity ahead if we don’t do something.

yes, everything is politics, but you’re right: everything is sales also, so it’s also all mythology (hey, are you a critical theory guy after all? roland barthes says hello, though mythologies was written in his structuralist phase)

plus, i will also add: batteries present new environmental problems, new technologies will create unforeseen problems, and there is no end to the human shitshow. by definition, there is no utopia. suffering goes on. solutions backfire. people switch to diesel for efficiency, then find nox emissions increase.

nevertheless, the focus on efficiency and renewable energy in transportation is a drift in the right direction; and per capitalism’s myths the profit motive is the best incentive for creativity, and markets serve the people better than government, yes? so there is a web of goals shaping up, and i’m very glad for it.

but also, we don’t need an airport named after john fucking wayne :lol:
(i’m fine with tearing down some statues: statues are not “history,” but public celebrations, and the celebrations change as history goes on)

...

eta: the ones immanentizing the eschaton are the world burners

Jason
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by Jason »

I disagree. The world burners we see today are not world burners but performance artists acting as world burners. Entertainment during the lockdown disguised as a return to self-governance. It's merely social media incarnate. They go home, check their likes and decide if enough people are paying attention to give it worth another march. To make sure the corporations are staring at them outside their office building windows and calling for the the intern to update their web pages to include a commitment to social justice as an acknowledgement of their consumer power once they run out of statues to pull down and get back to focusing on their college loans. So the end will not be Mad Max, but Google toll booths. The immanetization will be a product of NVDIA not BLM. No bloody revolution, but a sanitized, technocratic reordering of essential infrastructure designed by Silicon Valley. There will be no Woodstock but there will be plenty of Hairs to go to. Freedom of the road exchanged for freedom from drunk drivers. Back to topic, will pollution be mitigated? Sure, why not. It's always found sitting somewhere around the table and given a wink wink acknowledgment, typically as dessert is being served. But at the end of the day, it will be AI sitting in the driver seat and AOC sitting in the back, strapped into her auto-buckling seat belt until her grandkids are old enough to pull down the tyrannical 5G towers that enslaved their ancestors and is responsible for their inability to parallel park, which is of course, their Constitutional right.

Alphaville
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by Alphaville »

i think maybe we’re dealing with a semantic discrepancy here. my understanding of “immanentize the eschaton” (mostly learned from the hilarious “illuminatus!” trilogy) is “to bring about the end of the world,” whereas i’m reading your meaning as “bring about utopia (of a kind)” which, ok, would end this sociocultural iteration and could indeed be a nightmare, ha ha ha, but i didn’t understand it as one and the same thing.

and by the world burners i meant it literally, not metaphorically: the fossil fuel industry, the oblivious commuters on 8 cylinders per person, the cattle ranchers torching the amazon, the oils spillers and the ocean acidifiers, all of us destroying life on our planet at an unprecedented rate (ok, we had the dinosaur extinctions previously, but we weren’t there in our current form).

i’m sorry if this got mixed up with the “burn it all down” (the statues) through contiguity.

two different burns.

so yes, motorized transportation will be treated as an algorithmic problem, moving packets from point a to point b with the greatest efficiency. of course tech wants a piece of that. it's a foregone conclusion.

but the dream of the motorized open road, which is the 20th century dream of “mah dick,” effectively died a long time ago. and it wasn’t tech, or airbags, but rush hour that killed it. sitting on traffic daily for hours on a 50-mile internal combustion procession with everyone looking at their cellphones or listening to drive time radio. what you’re evoking as the desirable thing is now just the shadow of a dead dream. that era is long gone, and it started to die with the the first traffic jam and the first 100 car pileup.

(and don’t let me get started again on the endless oil mess.)

but the open road is still open to everyone on their own two feet. the flaneur and the wilderness trekker are just two possible modes of this. there are many ways of walking and lots of room for experimentation.

if anything, it was the automobile highways that killed the original open road, pushed aside the pedestrian, and trapped everyone inside metal coffins on a concrete conveyor to metabolic hell and suburban ennui.

Jason
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by Jason »

To me, "I TH E" (its too hard to keep spelling out) is simply a non-Judeo-Christian construct of the metaphysical order. As Montaigne stated, Christians are typically the best citizens as they do not believe justice is possible in this world as justice is an eternal matter decided by a heteronomous being, post-mortem. I THE E is the belief and subsequent use of earthly means to impose order, justice, et. as there is no life beyond this one. It usually falls on the dependence of the political order. That's why a good political system i.e Republic/Democracy is no longer acceptable. It has to be perfect. Ulysesses S. Grant who was individually second only to Lincoln in The Civil War period has his statue taking down because he did something awful that I'm not aware of. Maybe he short changed someone in his haberdashery store before becoming a successful general.

Anyhoo, the open road ethos is not dead, but it has cancer it will eventually spread to the entire body not because of traffic or pollution. The country is too geographically diverse for that explanation i.e. there are no traffic jams in Vermont but because this is what Silicon Valley wants (Winnebago actually saw a spike during Covid-19).

Alphaville
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by Alphaville »

oh yah, let’s not use that term then, it’s a bridge too far and we’ll never get there.

when did montaigne write that? before or during the religious wars?

anyway i haven’t heard about grant’s statue yet, but i did have a good laugh at the news of stonewall jackson’s. his military tactics will still be read about, just like rommel’s, but i think there’s never been a rommel statue, right?

and the kids will always riot, that’s just life. remember occupy wall street? remember when the berlin wall came down, and lenin statues got dragged down too? prior to that, boomers rioted more than anyone i think... then became yuppies :lol:

as for the original subject, the open road ethos is the cancer... it grew and grew and grew unchecked, and eventually choked everyone. desire and reality will always be at odds. this is our fate.

vermont you say? i haven’t been there in ages but loved the place. and yeah, it was a good road trip :lol:

Jason
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by Jason »

I have Montaigne collected essays but haven't got through them. I became aware of the quote somewhere else.

I The E is useful to put at least some limits on things. We are seeing this insatiable, impossible level to achieve demand for social justice, one markedly devoid of either human or historically contextualized forgiveness while living in a period where the entire planet is experiencing the indiscriminate, unforgiving nature of nature. I have to think they are connected. Railing against George Floyd's is perfectly legitimate and necessary. But this bust out of the house protesting seems to have some overlap between two different situations. March all you want, remove all the pollution you want, topple all the statues you want, decry Trump all you want, make the driving experience as automated as you want, death is still everybody's daddy. We live in a world with obvious limits. You want to change the name of an airport because you found an old Playboy in your grandfather's attic and after looking at pictures of formerly young naked women who are now most likely grasping for air in a nursing home you stumble upon an interview with some racist quotes from a guy born more than 100 years ago who changed his name from Marion in order to be taken seriously enough that he could make a living pretending to be a cowboy? Be my guest. But it seems like it would have been more fun to spray paint "Gacy" on the sign and watch the Mother's Against The Preservation of Historical Monuments Honoring Serial Murders get some air time.

Alphaville
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by Alphaville »

oh but your eschaton is still not my eschaton is what i’ve been saying. my end times are not your end times. same joined morphemes, different meaning altogether.

anyway the montaigne bit seemed to me very french catholic at first: you know, casual, horny, as opposed to the spanish inquisition, or puritans earnestly trying to build a new jerusalem on massachussett land. there are all kinds of christians, i don’t know which type he meant.

but then i remembered the french religious wars and st bartholomew’s massacre, and when i checked the dates they coincided with the latter half of montaigne’s life. so that’s why i wondered. that was some brutal christian shit. very end-times.

anyway, i think we both share a skepticism of utopia, that much is clear to me. but death is a mommy not a daddy: we return to her dark womb. daddy has always been a legal fiction.

in any case, i get what you’re saying, but i will not be an old man yelling at clouds.

i think i take a more humorous view of yothful idealism, and even look at it sympathetically, having once partaken of it. didn’t you? ever? march, or dream, or something? sing a petition or manifesto? never, really? were you always this wise, or did it take you decades to get there?

regardless, the boomer golden age gave us our current nightmare. the past wasn’t really that awesome, it was awful too, it’s just that you miss your own youth and are confusing it with history. so let the kids have their youth instead of resenting it, and relax. drink an iced chai or something. this isn’t the cambodian killing fields.

me, personally, when i go, i’d rather die laughing, because it’s been absurd from start to end, and there’s no need to get cranky about it.

but also, i’m ok with the current general drift of the protests (but i’m sure they will accomplish very little in the end. the usual parturient montes.)

fuck cars, though. fuckem. :lol:

Jason
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by Jason »

I searched and did not find the name and apologize if he has been brought up. Lex Fridman is an MIT researcher who has a you tube channel where he interviews a broad of array of people including Kahneman. AI and its relationship to auto technology is an underlying theme. Some interviews directly address the topic. Fridman is skeptical of total self-driving as AI is far from replicating human common sense at this point. Based on current technology, there would be an abundance of human drivers rear ending self-driving cars based on their current level of decision making.

Alphaville
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by Alphaville »

AI is utterly stupid, yeah. siri hates it when i call her names. all it does is search and sort, it can’t really solve the most basic problem. does not make inferences, does not mix blue and yellow to make green.

once for ERE experimentation i played around with amazon mechanical turk (it’s horrible), and one of the tasks offered for a nickel was to identify people in a photo that could possibly cross your path as a driver. so you go and tag them.

lololololol if this is how we’re feeding the AI, it’s never gonna work.

me, i just want more bicycle & walking paths. human-powered transportation: real agency!

Jason
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by Jason »

Kahneman does believe that AI is not that far being able to determine if a pedestrian is going to cross the road. At that point, it's like an old person driving and we live with that. It's very interesting listening to these guys.

Alphaville
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by Alphaville »

this guy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L0TKZQcUtA

i started a little while ago and i'm hooked. the intro is very well reasoned and kinda fascinating

dammit... there go the next 80 minutes :lol:

--

thanks!

--

wow pong

Campitor
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by Campitor »

I don't mind the change in technology. What I do mind is the unnecessary difficulty embedded in the newer designs. I've been working on cars since the 70s when I was kid handing wrenches to DIY mechanics. As time went by, the bolts went from US Imperial sizes to a mix of metric and imperial. No big deal. But then the screws started morphing into all kinds of types: phillips, flat head, torx, square drive, reverse thread, etc.

As DIY mechanics started buying the tools, the complexity of engine design rolled out. Engine compartments became smaller and more vertically layered which increased the difficulty to change a single component.

I recently changed a fog light because of a broken lens. It required removing the wheel bay and undercarriage splash guards. Car repair can be made easier despite the improved evolution of technology.

Jason
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by Jason »

Alphaville wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:16 pm
this guy?
Yes, but there is also a series of interviews. Below is part I one with Elon Musk. Note the eye movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEv99vxKjVI

20sharkall03
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by 20sharkall03 »

Campitor wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:14 pm
I don't mind the change in technology. What I do mind is the unnecessary difficulty embedded in the newer designs.

As DIY mechanics started buying the tools, the complexity of engine design rolled out. Engine compartments became smaller and more vertically layered which increased the difficulty to change a single component.
Some of the added complexities of modern engine/transmissions/suspension designs are a result of consumers wanting trucks that drive like cars, have 400 hp, get 18 mpg and are quiet going down the highway.

Having worked in the industry for eight years I can concur with the rapidity of change in this regard. Mind you shade tree mechanics can still perform many services at home it just requires more expensive diagnosis equipment and greater engineering/technical skills than ever before. What I can assure you is that as working on the dealership side that good dealerships really don't care if you do the work yourself or if you bring it in. DIY mechanics are an irregularity and largely background noise. The level of competition in this industry is immense and your skilled mechanics shops eat up all the business when dealerships fail to perform; this is where dealerships lose big money..

And not that you're equating one with the other but engine complexity and DIY mechanics are mutually exclusive things. There have been DIY mechanics since the early 1900's until now. The only difference is back in the day as you have illustrated it only took 30 different tools to take an entire vehicle apart. Now it takes very expensive equipment to diagnose the correct issue.

Having been on the wholesale parts side of this business I watched many "diy mechanics" that bought hundreds of extra dollars in extra parts because they simply had no idea what they were getting themselves into. Meanwhile we had plenty of great "aftermarket" shops that purchased parts and still made us money.......

Trust me, many dealerships do not enjoy the added complexity of these automobiles anymore than DIY mechanics. In this industry the dealerships are independently owned and are competing with other dealers. Six months ago before I left our dealership only REALLY cared about sales. If you don't have enough sales then your dealership is closed. The service department for us was actually a complete loss on a monthly basis. We made up for the difference of loss leader cars and huge service competition by selling automotive parts at cutthroat prices.

Campitor
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by Campitor »

20sharkall03 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:52 am
Trust me, many dealerships do not enjoy the added complexity of these automobiles anymore than DIY mechanics. In this industry the dealerships are independently owned and are competing with other dealers. Six months ago before I left our dealership only REALLY cared about sales. If you don't have enough sales then your dealership is closed. The service department for us was actually a complete loss on a monthly basis. We made up for the difference of loss leader cars and huge service competition by selling automotive parts at cutthroat prices.
I wholeheartedly believe dealership don't like the added complexity. Added complexity = longer repair times. Longer repair times = diminished profits as car-per-hour maintenance slows down. And car owners like quick turnarounds on repairs.

Giving the market desired features to increase sales is understandable but it doesn't need to be done with different standardized units (why not metric only?) and with special covers and doodads that require an esoteric tool which can only be used to remove the doodads in question.

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Sclass
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Re: Rapidly Changing Automotive Technology

Post by Sclass »

Campitor wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:37 pm
Giving the market desired features to increase sales is understandable but it doesn't need to be done with different standardized units (why not metric only?) and with special covers and doodads that require an esoteric tool which can only be used to remove the doodads in question.
Parts manufacturers sell the same part to multiple car manufacturers. Common parts then get shared across the world. This can add to a lot of mixed SAE and Metric fasteners. Put a Valeo radiator with metric thread inserts into a Ford? Now you need metric bolts in an American car. Then there’s merger and selloff activity where a US brand goes to EU or vise versa. Fiat parts on a Jeep mixes up stuff.

It happens more now but I deal with this problem on my 40yo Mercedes. It uses a some US systems like HVAC(GM) and turbocharger(Garrett).

But I agree I notice it’s more common to mix stuff up recently.

@20sharkall30 thank you for your informed description of the business. I’ve dealt with a couple of dealer parts guys and I was always amazed at the world behind the counter. Like common parts shared across makes yet wildly varying pricing. Guys with the Rosetta Stone play auto parts arbitrage and print money. Or the sales incentives paid to parts guys for pushing the sliding price scales on dealership clients, workshop prices and wholesale. (I was stunned to learn the parts sales guys can make the most money of the dealership employees).

I have used some automotive components in industrial tooling and I got visits from Honda supplier Denso to stop because they were selling the part to Honda below cost and I was killing them. They hadn’t planned on the part being widely consumed outside of normal maintenance on Honda cars. The parts guys at Honda loved it because it was pure profit for them. Honda corporate got involved because they thought the replacements were being sold to fix defective or misdiagnosed cars. Once Honda was satisfied then Denso came knocking because they were losing money on the deal. Long story but it made me realize there is a lot going on behind the dealer parts counter.

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