Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

[ZAFCorrection]

@ertyu

That's the story for everyone and every system of government. Democracy is just a recent dominant flavor of how we choose to organize a peaceful-ish coexistence.

[IlliniDave]

In my mind there are a some questions that need answering in this.

Given the fact the the federal courts in that district are the staunchest allies of progressivism anywhere, why are these mobs selecting to burn down/vandalize a federal courthouse in Portland night after night?

Why are local/state officials (political and law enforcement) content to abdicate responsibilities inherent to their office and stand by and let it happen, night after night?

Is there any significance to those two things happening in tandem, or is it a coincidence?

Is it reasonable to expect the federal gov't to look the other way when federal facilities, especially a courthouse, are under repeated assault?

Are there laws that allow the use of civilian federal law enforcement personnel to protect federal buildings/facilities?

Doesn't it seem like our national hyperbole detectors are broken?

[bostonimproper]

Inflection points of history have always been messy. The American colonies turning against the British over a series of drunken brawls with soldiers. Suffragettes dropping letter bombs in early 20th century England. Nothing that's happening today by the left is nearly as radical as the 1970s. I can't imagine armed Black Panther protests in 2020.

If any of the elected officials in Portland/Oregon/the federal government had any sense of leadership and coordinated with each other, this whole situation could be neutralized pretty quickly. Stop grabbing people off the streets without wearing badges and sticking them in unmarked vans. Go talk to local black leaders, outline a long-term commitment to address some of the issues they raise. Collectively condemn shooting fireworks at buildings. It's not like this is the first time in history political protests have turned to destruction of property and it won't be the last.

People be people. Sometimes that leads to destruction of property-- that's nothing new. The problem here is our leadership is so tepid and wan it can't do its freakin' job.

[Hristo Botev]

I can't imagine armed Black Panther protests in 2020.

https://www.newsweek.com/armed-black-de ... rk-1515494

[Alphaville]

https://www.newsweek.com/armed-black-de ... rk-1515494

well! it was about time... can’t have 2nd amendment monopoly on one side.

love it.

[Riggerjack]

I remember, years ago, some woman moved to very rural southern Oregon. This was timber country, at a time when timber money was drying up. Because the locals were so few, as a cost cutting measure, their sheriff's office worked office hours. Literally. If you need a cop, he would swing by to take a report, Monday morning.

Not a big deal for a while, then this lady brings drama home. If I remember right, it was some problem with her ex. It's late at night, he's drunk, and pounding on the door, she's on the phone with 911, and the operator is trying to tell her there are no cops to call until Monday, and she will have to sort this out herself.

The 911 tape hit national news, we talked about it here. The governor threatened to call out the national guard if round the clock policing wasn't made available.

I guess that's what you have to do, if one is wearing a blue shirt in the governor's mansion, and there is lawlessness for one person in a red county.

Obviously, the situation is completely different if there is more than one person experiencing lawlessness, and there aren't any red shirts around to catch the blame...

[Alphaville]

yeah when i moved to rural new mexico i realized calling 911 here was pointless.

i mean this lady in your story was able to actually talk to someone at the other end of the line! huge improvement from my experience

it really does make me happy to see a heavily armed black militia marching on a kkk site though. huge sigh of relief on my part. i love the counterbalance.

[Riggerjack]

Myself, I just like the idea of a heavily armed black militia. Honestly, I think it's a good thing.

Going to a KKK site seems problematic. But good for morale, if they brought enough firepower.

But then, I liked the black panthers, too. Some socialist silliness, of course, but they were an overall positive for their community.

One has to wonder how what we are experiencing today would be different, if the black panthers had been in the mix, this whole time.

[jacob]

This particular pseudo-crisis is interesting because it plays on the urban/rural perception of law and order. The urban/rural division also happens to describe the red/blue division rather well.

I've had people who live in the sticks while being hooked into the facebook meme network for "all their news" (i.e. low-information voters) sincerely ask me if they should bring their handgun when visiting us to keep them safe. (This is the "gun=safe" demographics who will shoot at a range maybe once a year at a range but otherwise just have the gun flopping around in their bag.) Having seen the memes, they expect a wild crowd to come and set fire to their car at any moment; and also "what about the murder rate?! Doesn't Chicago have the highest in the world?" However, after carefully explaining that the murders are 95% gang-on-gang violence which only happens in certain areas; that they definitely need to stay clear of those rather than unwittingly roll into a gas station around midnight or "insist on their right of way to drive wherever"(*); that being armed in the city is a legal liability if not downright illegal; and that the cops will show up in numbers within minutes; and that the cops won't automatically treat you as a hero for "defending yourself" if you're waving a piece around like they might back home...

(*) "Yes, you have the right but driving through a riot or a gang-area is like driving through a wildfire. Why tempt disaster?"

... I've actually managed to get through. It wasn't trivial though. Low-information coupled with lack of experience and the assumption that the same behavioral rules that one follows back home should apply everywhere easily leads to misunderstandings.

Basically, it comes down to understanding the environment and working with it rather than against it. A demonstration is part of city living. They happen regularly and are usually contained within a few city blocks. You simply drive/walk around it. If you work inside the protested area, you can usually get in through the back door. Demonstrations are no big deal when you're constantly exposed to them.

I'd imagine that the first encounter between a city-slicker and a bear would be equally harrowing (I'd definitely want to be armed ... but would also expect that feeling to go away over time) to the first encounter between a ruralite and a demonstration. However, if you see bears or demonstrations on a daily basis for a couple of weeks, you figure it out, and eventually it just becomes part of the landscape as you adapt to it. Basically, like a bear, you don't walk up to it ... and if it starts messing with your log cabin, you install and close the shutters until it leaves again. It's just much easier that way.

Note: I'm suggesting that bears and demonstrations might illicit the same kinds of fear in people who are unfamiliar with them. Not that they are equivalent. I'm familiar with demonstrations to the point of having worked in places that were on the receiving end of them. I've never seen a wild bear and I'm scared shitless of them.

Whether this convinces the "suburban" voter to change their minds remains to be seen. It probably depends on what "suburban" means. How often do they go to the city? How familiar are they with the city? What's the population density? This demographic would be the only one that I don't think is already settled on whether sending in the feds is either a long-needed intervention or governmental overreach.

[theanimal]

Regarding the bear analogy, if bears touch a cabin they are at least shot at, if not shot. They do not go away once finding something to eat. And I find that most people increasingly desire to be armed after dealing with bears on extended periods. Their individual behaviors and occasional aggressiveness combined with the catastrophic possibilities if something happens causes an uneasiness, discomfort and fear among even the most seasoned of people on the land.

ETA: This is also dependent on location. For example, bears in coastal AK have an abundance of food and are abundant as a result. For the most part there are less issues since there is less competition for food. The rest of AK this is not the case and food is scarce. I guess inland bears would be more akin to protestors, more agitated and more potential for tense interactions. Anyways, the analogy still holds true. First step of avoiding bear interactions is taking precautions to avoid bears, then arming oneself. Not vice versa. But such interactions can be inevitable depending on one's lifestyle. At work we carry a shotgun per crew and everyone has bear spray. Even with making noise etc we had 3 serious bear incidents last week. I'm not sure what one does to protect themselves if they have to go into a protest area besides remaining inconspicuous. Sorry, derail over.

[Riggerjack]

Well, I would be ok seeing a black bear in the woods, without a firearm, but I don't think unarmed confidence with a grizzly bear comes to anyone who is not a grizzly tamer (super rare) or batshit insane (not as rare, and the story behind Grizzly Man. The greatest unintentional comedy of our time!)

I agree this is differing threat responses to unfamiliar threats. We already had one member drop into the deep end over pictures of lawlessness that will inevitably lead to Maoism.

I see a black lives matter party. It's a celebration. An angry celebration, to be sure, but they have a lot to be angry about.

After hours, some partiers get a bit out of control, but this says more about partying deep into the night than about the protestors.

The riots happen deep in the cities, because that is where the private firearms aren't. They don't move into the suburbs, because the less urban areas are not as dependant on professional peacekeeping, and when the vans full of protestors move out of the city, they gain an immediate feedback signal that they should go back to the areas were mob rule is a sign of force, not a target rich environment.

Because everyone likes to be part of a powerful group, and nobody likes feeling like a target.

Out here in the sticks, the CHAZ/CHOP thing played like cartel violence on our southern border. Violent, bad things happening to very different people, far away. Amazement and confusion and sympathy, mixed with apathy. There just isn't much anyone can do to stop self inflicted wounds.

But we can all like the comments, and share the memes, so that is the level at which most of us engage this crises. And really, I think it's about the right reaction.

[nomadscientist]

There is some danger in conflating "city" with "American city." I was happy to walk around Tokyo at night not knowing the way and to let the girl I was with (also foreigner) walk back to her hotel on her own at night not knowing the way. In America you can't do that. It's a real restriction on your freedom and just as I may be overcautious taking a trip to Somalia (or was overcautious in the first few days taking a trip to India) doesn't mean that the situation there is basically to a world standard and totally OK because you can mitigate the danger more easily than you at first might think.

The real threat here is if the BLM political program succeeds the no-go area where local guides will warn you dragons lurk and real estate value is $0 will expand and maybe they will encompass your house [perhaps literally Jacob's house?] or maybe they will 'only' grow to encompass the cultural centers of your civilization, a more distant but ultimately more important threat.

[reepicheep]

I went to the protests in Portland.

Before Feds, vibe was mostly Pink Floyd Party in the Park. Pot smoking, dancing, music, occasional chanting and shaking of fence. Sometimes protesters or cops or both would escalate around the fence. Cops pretty much did not want to engage with the crowd by the time I showed up and would occasionally tell people not to touch the fence over the PA system.

Touching the fence got people tear gassed. Lots of people wanted to get tear gassed.

Yes, protesters launched fireworks at the JC on 4th of July, unprovoked so far as I know.

The Feds showing up has given a lot more people a lot more reasons to go get tear gassed on a nightly basis. I think the general sentiment is, "We are now directly fighting with Trump."

The fact that they're being co-opted for the script of a larger drama does not seem to have occurred to most people who are out there "fighting fascism." It's a compelling narrative. I have considered whether the front line of the revolution is in Portland and whether I want to be on the front lines or not.

[mooretrees]

There is some danger in conflating "city" with "American city." I was happy to walk around Tokyo at night not knowing the way and to let the girl I was with (also foreigner) walk back to her hotel on her own at night not knowing the way. In America you can't do that.

I have to disagree with you on this. I lived in Portland for years and walked around late at night many, many times alone. I might have been naive, but I never 'learned' that that wasn't a good idea. Now, that's just one city, but an American city and as a woman too. I think I'd give most small to mid sized cities a chance that walking around at night would be safe. I did feel totally safe in China at any hour.

Back when the first Bush was in office, his nickname for Portland was "Little Beirut." Still living up to that name I think.

[nomadscientist]

I have been to Portland. I did not feel safe there walking around in the daylight. Not that it's the worst American city I've visited, by a long way.

[reepicheep]

Agreed that Portland does not feel safe to me.

Pre-protests. I would not walk around in the city at night by myself unless I had no other option. Even daytime f we lt sketchy in many places.

And I hitchhiked alone through Morocco at 18.

[Jason]

The fact that they're being co-opted for the script of a larger drama does not seem to have occurred to most people who are out there "fighting fascism." It's a compelling narrative. I have considered whether the front line of the revolution is in Portland and whether I want to be on the front lines or not.

Putting aside the "jack boot" components of fascism, for a society to be accurately defined as fascist, the government or political apparatus must have majority control over individual life outcomes. Is that really the case in the US? When LeBron James and other African American multi-millionaire citizens of the US are tweeting out of their Disneyworld bubble in support of a movement against systemic racial oppression, shouldn't there be at least a minimal recognition of contrary evidence poking holes at your thesis? How much control does Donald Trump really have over our lives on a day to day basis? Is he and his statued predecessors really the guys to blame here for your problems? Does the present administration's day to day influence over your life reflect Stalin's control over 1930's Russians? No one with the slightest understanding of history could say it does. Being autocratic in nature does not make one autocratic in reality. Sure he's surrounded himself with family members. Well, so did JKF, Jr. as well as Bill Clinton. Maybe he's turned the office into a cash register, but the only difference is that he's doing it during his term, and not waiting for the book tour and hedge fund life afterwards. Of course there are real issues. But there's some real straw man in order to create fascist photo-op shit going on here as well.

[Alphaville]

ok forget the dictionary definition of fascism then, and call it right wing populism, which encompasses elements of nationalism, nativism, racism, scapegoating of minorities, which fascism also shared, then realize that there’s nothing really populist about it because they don’t care about “the people,” they just use people to advance their kakistocracy; and then decide, well, yeah, this is not exactly the 1930s, but it stinks the same way, so let’s just call it fascism, because language evolves after all, otherwise we’d all be speaking sanskrit. and then fight whatever that -ism is rather than discount the whole enterprise for obsolete dictionary noncompliance.

updated dictionary allows for “tendency toward” not just actual
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
early instances of army fascism and brutality
— J. W. Aldridge

[Jason]

Not exactly the 1930's? How many people do you know, right now, literally digging their own graves by the hand of the government? Or being purposefully starved by the hand of the government? Personally, I don't know any. Let alone millions. How many fascist nations had to build a wall to keep people out? How many fascist nations provided financial support during a natural disaster? How many fascist countries have a cultural movement sponsored by Nike? How many fascist nations allow their homosexual citizens to sue their employers for being fired based on their sexual orientation? How many fascist nations provided their citizens the opportunity to retire early? Good for J.W. Aldridge but that is not the country we live in.

[ZAFCorrection]

eh, one can argue about the dictionary all day. The point is invoking "Hitler" or "fascist" comes down to pulling the social fire alarm. Except instead of fire, we are talking about Hitler shenanigans and the ensuing levels of death and destruction. People have been bitching about the possibility of the current president going full dictator since the dawn of time. You need to demonstrate more than cosmetic similarities before going full Godwin.