"Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

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classical_Liberal
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

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Alphaville wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:36 am
there are indeed common themes in my pattern of thought
I think (@bigato can correct me if I'm wrong) what is meant is you seem to continue to struggle with the idea of various forms of capital, and the complex interplay between them. Don't feel bad, I have immense struggles with these concepts as well. Honestly reading @7WB5's take and others, like @bigatos take on these things, is very helpful for me, whether I'm part of the conversation or not.

Coming from my (and maybe your?) perspective, saved money and cash flow seem to take the lone seat in our minds for ways to securely bank capital. I continue to struggle with trying to place value on other things, because I constantly want to put a dollar figure on my gains or losses, but it just doesn't work that way. As @7WB5 just pointed out, these financial or even physical resources aren't nearly as a secure way to hold onto wealth as we may think.

This is a wheaton level thing. Trying to get beyond 5 to 6/7 takes a better understanding of all forms of capital. Those of us below 6/7 have a hard time comprehending why lentil baby skill, is much more valuable than 100K invested. An easy way to dismiss it is to look at the potentially negative dynamics of the alternative form of capital, while ignoring the risk of 100K invested losing it's value in dynamics also only partially under our control.

But yes, please go on, both of you, I'm learn'en me some stuff.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

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@c_L

but... i don’t think i’m talking about those things at all... :D

i think those might be artifacts of interpretation. then again written words no longer belong to the writer. that’s their fate.

on the other hand i believe @7w5 totally gets my drift, because her responses have been spot-on to what i’ve been trying to address all along, and i see no struggle or miscommunication. maybe it’s an xNTP thing :lol:

eta: i also have to add that i read her story as a very personal thing, not as illustrations of concepts. so i’m dealing with it on a very human level, not as an ideological thing, and i read things in detail and she responds also in great detail.

what i meant as looking for big ideas is because im searching for a “philosophical” solution that encompasses the details... but i don’t come to it with a predetermined solution, if that makes sense?

ah, also i never meant portfolio in the literal sense, nor suggested she gets $100k invested or something. i meant a “portfolio” of strategies... a metaphorical thing.

plus, oh, other stuff mixed in... psychology, etc. i think arriving to the idea of boundaries was cool. :)

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

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ah, it’s so frustrating to be SO completely misunderstood! :lol:

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

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@c_L@bigato: From my perspective, Alphaville seemed to be engaging the voice of a therapist/coach/journalist who does not yet know me very well. However, I did share a bit of your sense of "Why is he assuming that I am likely to feel like The Little Matchstick Girl?" but it didn't faze me. I am in the habit of self-examination, so just took it as opportunity to question myself.

I am not very much like Rob Greenfield, although I do admire him. I do not even like the term Social Capital as it is usually understood, and I am certainly not very good at creating it or maintaining it in the way that it is usually understood. I am semi-notorious for not even returning phone calls or e-mails while I am engaged in a project or a book etc. What I think I am pretty good at is understanding the general social field or "lay of the land" from an outsider's (Ne scout) perspective. It's like a rolling landscape where you can sometimes simply skate downhill or you sometimes face a rugged climb. The trick is recognizing that at a certain level of frugality in a highly affluent culture such as ours, if most other things in your resource backpack signal "middle-class" or even just "not drunk and violent", you are usually going to be skating downhill with multiple offers of helium balloons on the offer. However, that doesn't mean that the field looks the same to an individual at the same level who has never been any higher and is struggling to climb. That's why I prefer the term Cultural Capital to describe why I can maintain a pretty good lifestyle at very low spending level. Part of the reason why this is true is that people want to believe simple narratives about success and failure, because these narratives make them feel secure, so if you deviate from one of the several standard narratives in a way that is kind of baffling, the desire to "fix" is strong; less altruism than discomfort with dissonance.
Alphaville wrote:aaaaaaaaaaaaah... i understand better now. you sort of stumbled into it.

but best to remove money from equation, regardless. no? i mean if you luck out you luck out, if you don’t then you lose nothing.

and then maybe you meet a broke hippy and who knows—perfect match! :lol:
I don't even sort for affluent when I date. I think men who are my age range and broke do not try to date women very much. Those pills are kind of pricey.
that’s very true about self-care, but there are conditions that cannot be treated by one’s self, and with age those conditions unfortunately multiply—e.g, current asphalt, possible covid asthma complications, your mom in the hospital... everyone’s health worsens with age.
True, but I still think lack of time for adequate self-care is worse hazard. For instance, when I was substitute teacher at inner city school, even one of the 20 something year old teachers who participated in triathlons as her hobby was overheard in lunchroom saying "I told my boyfriend I can't even go out on Friday nights, because I am always so exhausted."
hey congrats i had no idea! best wishes with it. a lot of things are moving to remote work so i’d just stick to that. saves on car expense too. and with your condition it’s not worth the risk. actually if you have documentation i think you can get exemption//dispensations/accommodations to work remotely. also, i think schools are looking for online teachers now, so you can find something even there.

and if not, you can always keep banking your unemployment, right? nice stash. i mean as long as you can get it.

i’m glad to know you have enough savings for housing if needed. i recall woodsman saying he didn’t want you in the street. hyperbole i guess?
Yeah, I think I only took the call from the headhunter because I am getting so antsy from being cooped up injured. I am going to tell them that I will only consider upper level high school math position. Given reasonably civilized young adults in 6ft spaced chairs like a seminar, windows that open, and p95 masks available for my use, might fall within my safe-enough strategy. Dunno...

The Cowboy doesn't like any of the options for alternate housing which I suggest that are within my budget. He deems them all as dangerous or ridiculous. I am currently indifferent/inertial.
-instead of partner you could just get an employee (part time/contract). from virtual assistant to hourly worker. it is simpler to downsize subordinates than to remove a partner. of course part-time doesn’t guarantee they will always be there for you but you have options
-if you can’t afford employees, you could get interns or apprentices. some need for college graduation,
-a lot of permaculture people dont make money from the permaculture, they make money “teaching permaculture” (or consulting whatever). (bit of a ponzi scheme? but i digress...)
-some entrepreneurs build a business with the express goal to sell the business so theyre never bored
-setting up businesses as ”machines”. i’ve been looking into that, don’t have clear solutions but no urgent need either.
I have had the "just get an employee" notion myself. In fact, I find it so motivating, I have contemplated doing it prior to even having working idea. IOW, having the fact of an employee force the business into being.

I did do the "machine" thing after reading stupid-head Tim Ferris and I now regret it. It is too easy to let things slide when you outsource too much of your functioning.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

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7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
@c_L@bigato: From my perspective, Alphaville seemed to be engaging the voice of a therapist/coach/journalist who does not yet know me very well.
yes! thank you... this is a relief for me because it signals that we have communication. then i forget that not everyone reading this is you, so at times fail to take insurance for the audience.

anyway, i’m just learning about your story and trying to learn from it and understand what works/ doesn’t work/ etc.

i DO express concern when i find cause for it, because i’m not a panglossian, i’ve had my share of personal catastrophes, and i know a lot of people who died (great song, hahaha).

also i’m not ashamed of trying to be helpful to people if i spot a problem. i mean, i come here for constructive criticism, not for validation, and to “stress test” ideas. e.g see my apple thread where i asked people to tear up my plan? a criticized plan is a good plan. confirmation bias is problematic—damaging, even.

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
However, I did share a bit of your sense of "Why is he assuming that I am likely to feel like The Little Matchstick Girl?" but it didn't faze me. I am in the habit of self-examination, so just took it as opportunity to question myself.
i tend to say what i think, and i am a terible diplomat, so a therapist once told me that i was “a nightmare for insecure women.” :lol:

but i never took you for an insecure person, because you share so freely and thoughtfully and without fear. so there’s that, and i’m glad i was right about you, and i’m happy to clear the misunderstanding.

anyway, the reason i thought of possible destitution is that in one of your other posts (remember the “i pay for my bitches” post? that one, or an adjacent one) you said the bf told you he didn’t mind paying because he didn’t want you to be in the street, or something along those lines.

so, while now it looks like that was a rhetorical expression on his part, the lack of context/not knowing you enough led me to believe that you might actually be at risk of homelessness. thanks for understanding this.

and not “were” but “might,” see? anyway, i’m glad you’re not, and i’m glad i asked.

since i don’t live in the best of all possible worlds, i actually have a friend who almost ended up homeless recently, so for me it’s not like these things don’t happen to anyone. she had a boyfriend who refused to take his meds and got into all sorts of trouble and almost dragged her into that... lifestyle? she’s now safe with family, away from the creep, and has a decent job, thank fuck. (and btw, audience take note, my friend is a divorced middle aged woman, not some runaway teen.)

anyway, speaking of sharing, i feel this exchange is a bit unbalanced because i don’t share as much as you do. but this is the open internet, so i don’t feel so comfortable with the confessional mode, especially when misreadings abound.

maybe some day i’ll tell you my own story as the recipient of matronage in my hedonist boho days, hahahaha. it started like great fun but didn’t end well. the artist residence with nookie included became a web of lies, the no strings became strings, and the life saving medicine became poison. eventually i managed to escape, which was a good end to that adventure, but i’ll leave the details for another day.

i’ll reply to the rest of your post later. thanks for the good conversation!

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

ok so for part 2
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
I don't even sort for affluent when I date. I think men who are my age range and broke do not try to date women very much. Those pills are kind of pricey.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

ok i laughed earlier today when i read it. i’m laughing now all over again...
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
True, but I still think lack of time for adequate self-care is worse hazard. For instance, when I was substitute teacher at inner city school, even one of the 20 something year old teachers who participated in triathlons as her hobby was overheard in lunchroom saying "I told my boyfriend I can't even go out on Friday nights, because I am always so exhausted."
yeah i agree. this is why i hate our health system: you have to kill yourself in order to afford good healthcare.

douglas coupland wrote something along those lines. i think it went something like “americans spend their youth and health making money, and in old age they spend their money trying to buy health.” i don’t have the book with me right now but it was on “generation x”.

in any case, i only get hurt when i try to do sports.

still though, some things we can’t control.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
Yeah, I think I only took the call from the headhunter because I am getting so antsy from being cooped up injured. I am going to tell them that I will only consider upper level high school math position. Given reasonably civilized young adults in 6ft spaced chairs like a seminar, windows that open, and p95 masks available for my use, might fall within my safe-enough strategy. Dunno...
if i were you i wouldn’t do it in those conditions, but you might be able to pull off that gig as a 100% online situation. i hear from my sources that schools are looking for online teachers. i mean specialist positions in online teaching.

and yeah, middle school is a fucking nightmare. in high school they’re mostly sane again.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
The Cowboy doesn't like any of the options for alternate housing which I suggest that are within my budget. He deems them all as dangerous or ridiculous. I am currently indifferent/inertial.
the cowboy is the woodsman?
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
I have had the "just get an employee" notion myself. In fact, I find it so motivating, I have contemplated doing it prior to even having working idea. IOW, having the fact of an employee force the business into being.
sounds expensive. maybe get a virtual assistant to help you develop a business, and then go from there?
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
I did do the "machine" thing after reading stupid-head Tim Ferris and I now regret it. It is too easy to let things slide when you outsource too much of your functioning.
“stupid head tim ferris” :lol: :lol: :lol:

yeah. how to work 4 hours a week by getting into oprah WAT. it was lies, but it was interesting ones.

i never actually managed and had to always provide a service and i’m burned out on clients.

nevertheless, a small machine might be a nice piece of a moderate semi-ERE puzzle. if you have any ideas that don’t interest you please send them my way.

classical_Liberal
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

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7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:11 am
Part of the reason why this is true is that people want to believe simple narratives about success and failure, because these narratives make them feel secure, so if you deviate from one of the several standard narratives in a way that is kind of baffling, the desire to "fix" is strong; less altruism than discomfort with dissonance.
This statement is super interesting to me! I wonder if you'd care to elaborate. I take it as meaning you have upper-middle or upper class interaction style, along with mathematics degree from prestigious university. Yet live in a trailer on urban an urban permaculture site... "Does not compute" with the people in upper-middle or upper class that you interact with? If my take on this is correct, do opportunities just get thrown your way, or do you purposely interact with these people? By purposefully I don't mean to try to take advantage, rather they are just the types of people you prefer to spend time with or are drawn to you.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by classical_Liberal »

@alphaville
Sorry I was interfering with your interaction.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:46 pm
@alphaville
Sorry I was interfering with your interaction.
all good my man. all feedback is good feedback, we’re here for it, and this is the open internet, where the observer effect applies just like in particle physics.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

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Alphaville wrote:“generation x”.
Great read. The weird thing is Coupland is actually too old to be GenX according to 1965 cutoff. I am right on the cusp, but relate much more to GenX because all my siblings were younger. However, vast majority of the boys and men I have dated have been Boomers. Might have something to do with why I feel like they are "old" even if they are just a few years older than me.
you might be able to pull off that gig as a 100% online situation.
They're only hiring for assume-we-will-be-in-classroom now, but said they'd get back in touch if they can't fill position and wind up online. Anyways, a potentially more lucrative, very flexible, temporary, much more Covid-safe opportunity just came my way, and it will also offer a free housing option, so moving on!
the cowboy is the woodsman?
The Cowboy is my current housemate, the last remaining of my 3 most significant polyamours, except not really, because The Permaculture Manager tried to text me up for sex again yesterday (told him I was still Covid-isolating), and The Peacemaker emailed me again this morning. In case you were wondering, I call him The Cowboy because he has wide shoulders, long lanky build, cute little butt, tendency towards quick acquisition of 5:00 shadow, and rather rough manner due to growing up out in Ted Nugent country.
sounds expensive. maybe get a virtual assistant to help you develop a business, and then go from there?
A virtual assistant would be too easy for me to ignore. But, yes it would be too expensive, just a mental construct I developed.

classical_Liberal wrote:This statement is super interesting to me! I wonder if you'd care to elaborate. I take it as meaning you have upper-middle or upper class interaction style, along with mathematics degree from prestigious university. Yet live in a trailer on urban an urban permaculture site... "Does not compute" with the people in upper-middle or upper class that you interact with? If my take on this is correct, do opportunities just get thrown your way, or do you purposely interact with these people? By purposefully I don't mean to try to take advantage, rather they are just the types of people you prefer to spend time with or are drawn to you.
It's a much broader concept than what you suggested. For instance, one example would be how visitors react if you only have a folding lawn chair in your living room where they would expect a sofa. Another example would be how I attempted to drop out of school and self-educate in the library when I was 14, then chose option to attend special school for drop-outs after I was finally busted, then pretty much got kicked up and out of that school because I didn't abuse any substances, and I wrote annoying notes to the staff on the topic of negative vs. positive reinforcement. However, it would also include the Yacht Guy saying "We need to get you a new car."

Buckminster Fuller wrote an interesting bit on how common language is often not in alignment with what we know scientifically. One example he offered was that we still refer to the wind as blowing even though we know that it is sucking. This also applies to social structure.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

on a busy morning, just read wuickly, had a good laugh, and briefly stopping to say:
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:49 am

The Cowboy is my current housemate, the last remaining of my 3 most significant polyamours, except not really, because The Permaculture Manager tried to text me up for sex again yesterday (told him I was still Covid-isolating), and The Peacemaker emailed me again this morning. In case you were wondering, I call him The Cowboy because he has wide shoulders, long lanky build, cute little butt, tendency towards quick acquisition of 5:00 shadow, and rather rough manner due to growing up out in Ted Nugent country.
see, dear audience, this is why one has to ask questions when following a good story: to avoid misunderstandings. same reason why some people have to draw a family tree when reading “100 years of solitude.” :lol: (i didn’t, btw)

@7w5

so, your housemate is the “i pay for my bitches” woodsman, is the cowboy, then? he’s got the most epithets. must be important.

to me a peacemaker is a gun (colt single action army) which is a classic cowboy weapon. so... why peacemaker? do we know him from where? i don’t think i’ve heard much about him,

yacht guy i’ll just call the shah: rich and iranian, likes to dangle a mercedes before your eyes. :)

and did perma manager relieve you of your shared property at last? i tend to recall yes, but just asking for confirmation. weren’t you annoyed with him or something?

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

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@Alphaville:

My housemate is the person who said "I pay for my bitches" and he does own wooded acreage , but "the illiterate woodsman" is just a humorous character based on the fact that a female novelist I really like is married to an illiterate woodsman. The Cowboy is a well-paid professional. He is important, but more in a "Will and Grace" way if Will had complete opposite personality type, and Grace was more nerdy. His best friend who is an eccentric multi-millionaire is also an important totally platonic relationship character, because I lived with both of them for a while. And that is who I will probably be living with starting next week, because he needs some help.

The Peacemaker was my polyamour who was the most overtly polyamorous, because he was married, and his marriage contract from conception was open. However, his wife became jealous because he was in love with me and told him he couldn't see me anymore. So, now he wants to see me on the sly, and I am not really down with that. I called him the Peacemaker, because he is VERY upper middle class, tennis playing, diplomat type; likely Type 9 known as The Peacemaker on the Enneagram (ENFP ish.) Looks like a cross between Mitt Romney and Dick Cavett. Very subtle, romantic flavor of dominance.

The Yacht Guy is not my Iranian American "Ex." I only dated the Yacht Guy for a little while around 5 years ago, but he is still after me. He said "We need to get you a new car." on our 3rd date. He was actually pretty cool (it's mean for me to call him the Yacht Guy, because he was poor when he was a kid, and he is a very skilled sailor who competes in big races), but it seemed like he wanted exclusivity, and I had just started practicing polyamory. I didn't start practicing polyamory until after I broke up with my Iranian American "Ex." I call him my "Ex", because I can't decide if our contract/relationship counts as my second marriage. My most conventional sister says it does, and she is probably right, since I considered his daughters to be my step-daughters, and we wore rings, etc. Anyways, I obviously chose to start practicing polyamory at the age of 50, after a lifetime of strict serial monogamy, in part due to the fact that when we were together it infuriated me that he sometimes acted like it was a big deal that he had to give up being polygamous because I required monogamy as term of our contract. I do understand his perspective better now. We broke up over 5 years ago, but I saw him again early this year after he was in a motorcycle accident, and we ended up hitting it again a couple times.

The Permaculture Manager and I still haven't closed the deal, but that is partly due to my lack of desire to go out in public and deal with notary public etc. He's a good egg. I was mostly just annoyed at myself for not completely honoring my commitment to myself regarding that project.

ETA: I also wanted to note that I never date the kind of guy who would "dangle a Mercedes." I only date reasonably frugal men who would like me to drive something more like a recent model Honda instead of a pretty pathetic looking not-aging-well Mazda Protege that I bought for $1200 from a Russian guy who bought it at auction. My daughter didn't even like me to drop her off at her high school when I was driving that car.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

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7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:10 pm
lots
🤯

my insufficient male brain has trouble processing so much social info. i like hemingway because he was a great reducer. here i need code names taped to chess pieces, so i can watch them move on the board. i will attempt to introduce some linearity, let’s see...

your relationship trajectory is (roughly, let’s remove the older parts) :

first marriage —> second marriage (iranian)—> poly

first marriage dude had problems, he’s out of the picture?

second marriage dude still close, family ties, had accident, entered the poly pool

as for the polys, we have:

cowboy: main guy you going from
aviator*: serious platonic guy you going to
diplomat: a better descriptor for upper class, dealt with the united nations (“everyone”), wants to sign secret pact
sailor: more apt than “the yacht guy”, just wanted you in a decent car
eggman: (good egg, manager): permaculture number 9

(tinker, tailor, soldier... like that)

* i’m calling him the aviator, like howard hughes (eccentric millionaire). please let me keep this tag for a moment so i don’t lose the plot.

i don’t want details on the russian guy—too many characters for now! code name: nabokov :D
Last edited by Alphaville on Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

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7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:49 am
It's a much broader concept than what you suggested.
Interesting... With those examples it makes me think people feel the need to "fix", not "help" or "collaborate". Which are two totally different things in my ENTJ mind. I really enjoy "collaboration" even if that means one person thinks they are helping, but I'd pretty much lose it if people kept trying to fix me.

I'm a late Gen Xer, and although I feel the pull of millennial thoughts at times, I'm generally a perfect example of going against expectations simply for the pleasure seeing people uncomfortable with my life. This is often where the good meaning "fixers" come in and irritate the piss out of me. :lol:

This could just be me taking it personally. What they really want is to fit the world into their model and some things about me do not. Meaning I miss out on a lot of collaborative opportunities because of my personality. I wonder if there is some work I could do to change the way I react to the "fixers", that would end in more net positive personal relationships? Maybe there is a gender dynamic at play here too, not just personalities?

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Frita »

@c_L
Anyone prone to fixing seems to prefer a one up-one down relationship dynamic. If one enjoys the attention from people being uncomfortable with unconventional choices, a fixer will see the opportunity to fix someone so clearly misguided. Can one sidestep the power struggle by considering what others think of him/her as none of his/her business?

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by classical_Liberal »

Frita wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:29 pm
@c_L
Anyone prone to fixing seems to prefer a one up-one down relationship dynamic.
Interesting, and maybe true in some cases. However, I think many fixers actually enjoy being helpful, not necessarily to gain the upper hand in some power dynamic. I run into quite a few of these pleasant meddlers in the nursing profession, I would think you get the same in teaching? This is where I think taking part in collaborative efforts could still be mutually beneficial, if I can "get over myself" and not take it personally. @7WB5 seems to do so well with this.
Frita wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:29 pm
If one enjoys the attention from people being uncomfortable with unconventional choices, a fixer will see the opportunity to fix someone so clearly misguided.
It's not like I walk around with my arms raised and middle fingers out. However, just being a 40 something year old male, never married, with no kids male makes me a bit of a target. It's not like I'm gonna lie about these things, but I do wear them with pride. An upper middle class income, living a working class outward lifestyle (this is my preference BTW, not just because it's less costly). Add in the ERE stuff and all the accompanying lifestyle oddities. I run into plenty from the fixer vibe that think I could do things better.
Frita wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:29 pm
Can one sidestep the power struggle by considering what others think of him/her as none of his/her business?
Yes. This is basically what I do. I'm just wondering if there is a better way.

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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

i have people who call me & my wife crazy for not having a car and using bicycle as transportation, for living 2 adults to a studio apartment, for not wanting kids, for not wanting a big house, for not having furniture (we broke down and bought furniture due to pandemic confinement), for not celebrating hallmark holidays or other any other holidays (outside of halloween actually because it’s hilarious), for trying experimental diets, for acknowledging our problems and talking about the uncomfortable past and going to therapy, for not having a tv (we got a tv for the pandemic eventually, whatever), for liking animals more than people, for having bicycles but not wanting ebikes, for shunning overpriced and disappointing restaurants, for not having any kind of real job for a very long time (she now has a “real job” because she wanted), for not enjoying group activities very much, for not racking up debts anymore, for not joining groups, for not wanting more things, for not doing secret santa, and for not giving 3 fucks about those people who call us crazy,...

...plus each of us is called crazy in our own individual spheres for a myriad other individual things of our own—but sharing those things in common listed above actually help us lift our middle fingers higher and more firmly wherever each of us goes.

it’s great to have an accomplice in this world.

and now for a vintage musical interlude:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kTs_Q4hEqmA
:mrgreen:

(i’m not sure the r-word is still apt in this day and age, but the main thrust of the thing is so... necessary for survival).

classical_Liberal
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by classical_Liberal »

@alphaville
:lol: Good list!

Yeah, I’ve basically reacted the same way. Usually I take pride in my differences, the problem is this can outwardly feel like a middle finger to folks who have good intentions.

That’s kind of my point wrt 7WB5s handing of such situations. She seems much better equipped to say “thanks, maybe you can help me on this project”, or something similar. This gives her access to people in a better way than “mind your own business and I’ll mind mine”.

There seems to be a lot of positive that can come of these types of collaborations, if I can get over the fact it’s happening because someone thinks I’m weird or need the help. Personal example, I got set up with my GF of 3 years because I let a pleasant meddler get involved in my romantic life, instead of telling that person to kind their own business. That relationship is probably one of the most positive things in my life. Makes me wonder what else if possible if I learn to interact better in these situations. Also probably take into account what @frita mentions, and better judge the intentions.

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Alphaville
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Alphaville »

idk about @7w5, i only express my aggro or disdain when people make assumptions or prejudge.

e.g. i’m not opposed to being interrogated about not having a car or refusing to pay for cable or such things. i’m also not opposed to being interrogated about using pieces of the mainstream puzzle for my alternative lifestyle.

what pisses me off is blanket dismissals like “you’re crazy,” that sort of shit. also “but everyone does...” the people who feel it’s their duty to keep the herd in check and that not being in the herd is a threat to them--i’m a threat to them--anyone different is a threat to them—other cultures, other countries, other religions, other customs, are all a threat to them.

but the herd people are not just the mainstream—outsider groups also often operate as herds, aka “cults”.

i think the finger is the right response for those people...

anyway, as for being open to others... i don’t know how to do this at the people level. i know how to do it at the idea level, i’m just not a “people” person. i’m terrible at pretending! :lol:

Frita
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Re: "Marriage, a history" Stephanie Coontz

Post by Frita »

@c_L
I should get better about skillfully using quotes as it avoids confusion.

Fixing and helping are significantly different. The former views/judges the other as defective, clueless, or less than in some way. There is no asking how the other person feels, if the person wants help or unsolicited advice. (Regarding meddling, it seems this term is fixing by someone with good intentions.) Sometimes the one-ups-manship is to be the “nicer” person which I find goes hand-in-hand with manipulation. Helping is more about listening and supporting the other.

Ha, all helping professions attract fixers and co-dependents in addition with more helpful, service-oriented folks. (There are certainly hybrids.) Education is no different, though I found that fixing is more pronounced in elementary and at-risk settings.

Collaboration seems to be mutually helpful. Working together in a symbiotic way seems doomed if one is busy fixing. I suspect such a relationship would be short-lived and/or unsatisfactory. (One has to set boundaries repeatedly, which I find exhausting.)

I am glad that you met your GF via a co-worker and that it’s a good match. Now, in my book, setting up a couple people I think would hit it off is more helping. I wouldn’t do it unless I knew both wanted to meet someone or I’d invite them both to an event (like a party with other people) without the setup.

@Alphaville
People do find comfort in others being just like them. In what context do people say your lifestyle is crazy?

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