Would you ever want to be famous? Conversation on Privacy & Security in an Increasingly Invasive Environment

[TopHatFox]

I've been reading a book on digital privacy and physical security, and man, I don't think it's worth it to be super rich and famous. The amount of precautions the super rich or famous need to take are mind boggling. They basically need a team of people scouring the internet for privacy concerns and another team to physically protect them. Sure they can buy whatever they want, but not without serious scrutiny by media. Sure they can theoretically buy a ticket to anywhere, but not without first considering the chances of abduction or kidnapping.

I think anonymity is definitely something a lot of people take for granted. I for one am kinda happy to fade in to the background, with still enough money to travel the world cheaply or own a small home (via anonymous LLC or Trust, lol).

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Also interesting, it is possible to use open-source intelligence (a.k.a. addresses & people search services) to our advantage by searching neighbor profiles when considering a home purchase. I guess abundant information has its uses, but at what cost?

[onewayfamily]

I often say to my wife and friends that I feel like the luckiest person on Earth - including Bill Gates and Tom Cruise and whoever else you want to add to that list.
The rich and famous have worries that we will never experience. They often keep working for no reason due to having generational wealth and businesses to keep running, and having massive wealth would mean at least for me I'd be a lot more worried about what I'm investing that wealth in. Making a extra 2% on a few hundred thousand is very different than an extra 2% of a few billion.

[Riggerjack]

I've worked with people who worked on the Gates Estate, and various Allen properties. The physical security provisions built into the properties alone made it clear that more money is just different problems.

[white belt]

Being famous seems like it brings a lot of challenges. Tim Ferriss isn’t even a mainstream celebrity and his fame has made his life much more complicated. See here: https://tim.blog/2020/02/02/reasons-to- ... me-famous/

Being wealthy and not famous on the other hand provides many of the benefits of fame (access, influence) without a lot of the downsides. It’s probably true that for the mega-rich (billionaires), immense wealth will make them famous and inevitably draw attention. However, the mega rich can also just throw money at the problem in the form of private security, anonymized house and vehicle purchases, electronic devices with no association with a real identity, and so on. It is my understanding that in this day and age those are the steps necessary to keep the stalkers away.

[IlliniDave]

Hard pass for me on fame.

[Lemur]

+1 That will be a no for me.

[Sclass]

I’ve wondered about this question personally. I’m am a nobody. I think maybe one hundred people can say, oh yeah I know that guy. There is an ape side of me that feels insecure in that. I have some cousins who like to point out that they are the only friends (2) in my Facebook. Not only am I a nobody, I’m particularly boring to onlookers. Luckily I don’t get off on respect, fear or admiration.

I’ve known some pretty famous tech people. And while I thought it was cool that they were well known and recognized, it may not have been all that great at the end. They died alone.

We all have our currencies as primates. Recognition is one of them. Makes us feel good.

You can buy it. I have recently met a philanthropist. We use the same financial service. She spends her late husband’s money to be invited to lavish parties in her honor. At a certain point in the evening she is asked to stand up and everyone claps. I got invited to one of these galas by her. It was ridiculous. I really think she does it for the recognition. She’s quick to tell our friends “I sit on the board of the Humanity for Poor Somethings where I direct some programs to help their youth.” I guess it’s better than to say she plays golf at the country club although she does more of that in reality.

Security is an issue. I know a third generation landlord and banker in downtown LA. They live in fear of being kidnapped. They purposely live outside of the Metro because people don’t know them out in their suburbs. Sometimes I think the only reason they hang out with me is so they can sit without security in the Starbucks in my neighborhood. Back in the 70s their dad used to show me the guns he had hidden behind panels in his Toyota Corona to fight off kidnapping attempts. One of his pals who drove a Mercedes got kidnapped by his employee back in 77. It put everyone on high alert about flaunting wealth. The patriarch owns city blocks from skid row to Dodger Stadium and everyone knows him...but you couldn’t guess it by looking at him. His assistant drives him around in a gray Passat now. Wears inexpensive suits that don’t fit. Oddly I typed the guy’s name in at google and nothing comes up except property transfer records. There’s one exception where a real estate agent drops his name saying this architectural masterpiece he’s selling was once owned by Jack Smithamacallit as if we are supposed to know who that is. The billionaire banker slumlord in a cheap suit.

The last guy that comes to mind is my friend’s neighbor. They have a beachfront property in OC I stay at in the summer. Richie Rich. The only reason he’s interacted with us is he wants to buy he house along with all the others so he can complete his compound up and down the tide locked beach. Founder of a Fortune 500 business. Owner of a sports team down here. Lives like a prisoner in his fortress. Rolls with two chase cars around his black suburban. I never see him but I always see is detail. They look like ripped Iraq vets in fatigues.

It’s really funny because his peers in Silicon Valley walk around downtown Los Altos in shorts without security. But something must be different here. Or maybe it’s just him. The neighbors have commonly described him as “the prisoner”.

So there’s some extremes. From the ERE pauper to the Fortune 500 founder. We are all dead in the end.

[Tyler9000]

That Tim Ferris post is also what I thought of first. I very much appreciate this quote:

“You want everyone to know your name and no one to know your face.”

Personally I'd much rather be influential than easily identifiable. There's a big difference. One is about how you impact the world around you, and the other is about how the world impacts you.

[fiby41]

Famous? Sure, a thousand years after I'm dead.

[TopHatFox]

That Tim Ferris post is also what I thought of first. I very much appreciate this quote:

“You want everyone to know your name and no one to know your face.”

Personally I'd much rather be influential than easily identifiable. There's a big difference. One is about how you impact the world around you, and the other is about how the world impacts you.

Damn, that article really paints a grim picture of the negatives of fame. In my view, all of the positives of "having an opportunity to help the world with non-profits" will never out-do dealing with all of the stalkers, needing special housing, taking additional safety precautions, training family members for abduction, being extremely careful with who you date or befriend, and so on.

It's interesting, because ironically one of the only ways to become glitteringly wealthy (not just saving up 90% of your median income for 5 years) is to become famous, or to grow a business (which also produces fame). But again, at what cost. I suppose this is another point for ERE type of wealth. Not being super famous may as well be hundreds of thousands or even millions that you don't need to spend in protecting yourself from the negative side-effects of fame.

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I think it gets worse the more famous you get. For example, MMM could definitely travel across the world and he'd probably be fine, Tim Ferris could do so but with significant precautions, and someone like Beyonce or Brad Pitt literally can't walk around in public using their like-ness. Talk about a restriction of freedom.

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I think my ultimate conclusion is that this is great to know. The best outcome in life is that you save 90% of your median income for a few years and have a modest and reasonably private house, car, and interesting friends. Or just have a remote skill like coding. This means you have all of the money you could need to travel, pursue hobbies, perform work, spend time with your family, invest in skills or knowledge, have appropriate steps in place for emergencies, or pay for costs of emergencies (like a surgery or car repair). This is the solution that optimizes your freedom the most. IOW, the bar for the optimal outcome doesn't require one to be a billionaire like click-bait on Youtube makes millions believe. Or like Instagram or Tik Tok encourages millions to seek. Trust me, you don't want to deal with the lack of freedom that glittering wealth & fame brings.

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Hm, the next question is: if we are to want to make a simple business to make some additional money, what's the best way to go about it to avoid becoming known? This is a more practical question than philosophical. I guess don't put your name on the LLC form, use a MySudo number on it, use a ProtonMail e-mail in the name of the company, don't put yourself anywhere on the website, and don't aim to become "big." I'd imagine there are tons of companies that make 100k-200k a year in net profit that are barely recognizable in the public eye. Thoughts?

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And to that end, what about holding down different jobs? I suppose the question there would be to avoid any positions that are in the public eye, such as politician, mayor, or even a police officer in the wrong-place at the wrong-time. In this world where everyone carries a video camera in their pocket and polar political views, a random professional can be made into a monster overnight. I recently saw a video on the internet about a government lady having a bad day on an airplane and lashing out at one of the flight attendant. The video received millions of views, the lady was doxxed, and she not only lost her government job, but receives death threats on the daily.

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Shit. I thought about the above, and I came to the conclusion that, well, if all of that is true, then I've already made it. By having many ERE years of $, tangible skills, a few certs to get gainful work, the potential to buy a reliable car and a small house/apartment, the potential to buy a small RV or a van to travel, and learning all about reducing security or safety risks, I've already made it. This is it. There's not much point in continuing to strive for millions or billions or recognition; that's a trap with more negatives than positives. I mean, sure, I could save up to 300-500K and that would be nice and I probably will with time--as the habits of minimalism and frugality encourage that-- but there really isn't much more after that.

Now what. lol. I guess just learn more skills, do more hobbies, continue meaningful relationships, and otherwise just pass the time.

[white belt]

@TopHatFox

Before we go down this rabbit hole, there are 2 things to keep in mind:

1. When we start talking about privacy and security, understand that there are Wheaton Levels to this like anything else. I'm convinced the only way to build up to an extremely anonymous lifestyle is incrementally, starting at the basic levels and increasing sophistication as you gain experience and figure out what you want to sustain.

2. Defining your threat model is critical. You need to identify what you perceive as the biggest threats to your specific lifestyle before attempting to mitigate those threats. Some of this may require you to research cybersecurity and gain some baseline knowledge before you can accurately build a threat model.

Ok now that we got those out of the way, I think these are good places to start:

https://www.operational-security.com/th ... challenge/

https://inteltechniques.com/JE/Privacy_ ... eb2019.pdf

Start with the basic stuff because the more advanced techniques are useless if you haven't implemented the basics.

Hm, the next question is: if we are to want to make a simple business to make some additional money, what's the best way to go about it to avoid becoming known? This is a more practical question than philosophical. I guess don't put your name on the LLC form, use a MySudo number on it, use a ProtonMail e-mail in the name of the company, don't put yourself anywhere on the website, and don't aim to become "big." I'd imagine there are tons of companies that make 100k-200k a year in net profit that are barely recognizable in the public eye. Thoughts?

Just to highlight how mitigations will vary based on your threat model, it depends on whom you want to avoid it becoming known to. Are you trying to hide this from your neighbor? A coworker? A jaded lover that may hire a PI? Someone trying to sue you? The government? Someone trying to doxx you? A cyber actor trying to steal your money? Those are different threats that require different mitigations. Generally the idea is to start with the most probable threat because unless you are running some kind of criminal enterprise it is typically also the lowest hanging fruit. The links above will start to point you in the right direction and then you can fit a solution to your threat model. There will always be tradeoffs.

There are tons of small businesses that make $100-200k a year in profit that are not in the public eye. I'd say most "Millionaire Next Door" businesses are like that. I feel like very few businesses are in the public eye unless they are in a "sexy" field.

And to that end, what about holding down different jobs? I suppose the question there would be to avoid any positions that are in the public eye, such as politician, mayor, or even a police officer in the wrong-place at the wrong-time. In this world where everyone carries a video camera in their pocket and polar political views, a random professional can be made into a monster overnight. I recently saw a video on the internet about a government lady having a bad day on an airplane and lashing out at one of the flight attendant. The video received millions of views, the lady was doxxed, and she not only lost her government job, but receives death threats on the daily.

Well I guess one easy mitigation is to never do anything in your day to day life that would give someone the urge to take out a phone and film you for a viral video. There are many mitigations against doxxing, but it is one of the more sophisticated threats so the mitigations are quite advanced with things like anonymous home and vehicle purchases, aliases, never associating your physical address with your real name, and so on.

Edit: In response to all the fame stuff, probably the more beneficial practice is to identify what you are missing from your life that you feel like fame would provide. Then work to figure out why you're missing that and if it is something that would actually add value to your life. This is highly individual and gets more into the realm of emotional intelligence and reflecting on your own thoughts/feelings, rather than just something like a concrete to do list. As an INTJ I have many times made the mistake of neglecting emotions for logic.

[Bankai]

Never wanted that.

Is it not just insecurity, i.e. I need other peoples' approval/admiration, and the more the better, or I'm worthless?

Thinking of a matrix of famous-unknown / wealthy-poor it looks to me that wealthy but unknown is the winning combination. In some circumstances, it might even be better to be unknown and poor than famous and poor since it's easier to acquire wealth than 'un-fame' yourself.

[TopHatFox]

@whitebelt, cool! The Extreme Privacy book is the one I'm reading. For sure this book is more for highest threat level people, but it is interesting to read. I guess my point here is that not being in that highest threat level -- by avoiding becoming famous -- may as well be worth all of the money required to make yourself anonymous again.

As for missing or desiring fame, I don't think I want it, but sometimes when I look at popular pages like Youtube or Netflix, a lot of the programming makes fame look desirable. Like, "why don't YOU have a 20,000 square foot mansion in California with a quitillion dollar pool!?" It's annoying to have to fight against these shameless emotional grabs on such sites. The reason why these get posted is obvious - to tug at peoples' desires and make a quick buck, but it's still pretty annoying.

Agreed that this is a process. Becoming more private requires you to understand law, modems, phones, computers, browsers, psychology, threat levels, and a bunch of other skills. It's pretty hard to go 0 to Extreme Privacy, but then, most of us will never need that level of privacy (unless if the government goes AWAL, you get a position that is in the public eye, or you are the victim of a viral video).

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@bankai, I agree, wealthy + unknown is vastly superior to poor + unknown, poor + known, or wealthy + known. Of course, depending on just how wealthy you are, that may affect how easy it is for your to remain unknown. Acquiring money does seem easier than deleting yourself off the internet, with thousands of people posting articles about you on the daily. Still, I wouldn't discount poor + known, as if you're known, all you need to make money is to leverage your fame into a talking show, a book, or a seminar.

[white belt]

@TopHatFox

I haven't read The Extreme Privacy book yet but I've read another book by the same author. As you point out, that book is an advanced text and probably not the best place to start because it is completely overwhelming to a beginner.

Well one method to avoid seeing the messages flaunting a luxurious lifestyle is to not spend time on those platforms or not watch content based on stuff like that. Another strategy is to really think through the number of life hours someone spent to build up that lifestyle and now the number of hours someone has to work just to sustain it. Further, we know hedonic adaptation is real. It all ties into the hyper-consumer lifestyle that measures one's worth only based on the amount of money they spend on lavish purchases.

Above all, remember that one easy method to make money on the internet is talking about how to make money on the internet. Which is why you see this circle jerk of influencers peddling their luxurious lifestyles and business optimization courses. Also remember that social media pros take their businesses very seriously, so much of what see on youtube/instagram from professional channels is staged/fake to maximize views, just like TV.

[TopHatFox]

@whitebelt, I think I'll run through those two links you put up and maybe get some of his more moderate books before considering the advanced stuff.

Yeah, I've been trying to figure out how to just get a blank search box whenever I open up the Youtube homepage (my only "social media" platform), but I can't seem to find a way to do that on Safari. I'd have to use Chrome or Brave extensions, but they don't seem to have very good filters for other distractions.

[chenda]

Agreed I'd hate it too though there is probably a lot of selection bias here.

Although I am amazed how slack some women are on their privacy and security on social media, especially those with large public profiles. I know women who have 100 000 + insta followers - so that's going to include a fair number of creepy stalkers - where anyone with Google maps and a bit of nous could ascertain their address just by the regular views from their living room window. Not to mention vlogging from their regular supermarket, park, high street, or showing the world their favourite walk through the local woods they do every morning.

[Jason]

I often say to my wife and friends that I feel like the luckiest person on Earth - including Bill Gates

I guess Louis CK is not in your circle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO9PwbtlOIU

[TheWanderingScholar]

I never want to be famous. It is a nice fantasy but the reality of it, as show by the Tim Ferris article above, shows it brings shit that I don't want to deal with. As for privacy, I do plan on eventually cutting out facebook, it is just hard as the only way I can keep contact with friends overseas so I need to stop being lazy and set up another means of communication aka get WhatsApp up and running again.

Beyond that, as someone who has knowledge Geographic Information System, it is quite easy for the government to track you and your every movement just using your phone and triangulation using towers, let alone the GPS inside your phone and high powered satellites. So I understand complete and utter privacy from the government is impossible. My main concern is privacy from other people, as I know the government bureaucracy is going to operate through a procedure, while the random private citizen does not and can more often than not irrational or inconsiderate of other people.

[theanimal]

@wanderingscholar- You can deactivate your FB profile but still keep and use messenger. You won't show up in any searches on the actual site.

[7Wannabe5]

I would like to be mildly influential yet anonymous. Maybe like a one time sperm donor of memes.