COVID-19

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jacob
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Re: COVID-19

Post by jacob »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:33 am
I think it's unfair to label hypertension a risk factor. Because almost everyone over the age of 70 who has seen a doctor has that diagnosis. It's like saying grey hair is a risk factor, or any other condition that correlates with old age.
I agree, except, these numbers are comorbidities and we already know that it's mostly people over 70yo who are dying. Therefore the comorbidities are already conditioned on being old. Thus if you're 70yo+ and have hypertension, you're in trouble. If you're 70yo+ and have "none of the above", you'll most likely survive. For these comorbidities, age is thus a confounding factor rather than a collider.

TL;DR - I take it that comorbidities are not intended to infer the entire population but just count the people who actually died. Sampling bias seems inherent to the definition [of comorbidity]??

J_
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Re: COVID-19

Post by J_ »

@sky: only a backpack each (and a bag with food/water for the 14 hours train-trip). We leave most of our clothing and sport gear in our Austria apartment.

Jason

Re: COVID-19

Post by Jason »

steveo73 wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:47 pm
In Australia the Chinese ambassador basically threatened us with trade sanctions because we said questions need to be asked about China's role in this pandemic. We also said that there needs to be a transparent investigation.

This is not going to be easy.
My understanding is that Germany was completely fed up with them beforehand.

China has been masterful in playing the US identity politics. They know we now live in a society where we can't say anything negative towards any class of people. Because they had convinced people they aren't truly communist anymore, when something like this happens, any criticism against them is perceived as racial. If Trump said "Communist virus" as opposed to "Chinese virus" people might take a moment just to think about it. There are over 350K Chinese students in the US. Is it really that far fetched to think some are government operatives taking what they learn here and using it help Chinese industry and governments when their own doctors disappear? I mean everyone says they just copy our shit. We're probably assisting them . But you cannot even allude to the possibility. I think it will change when this gets under control.

Jason

Re: COVID-19

Post by Jason »

The problem is that the average US SJW doesn't know the basic facts about China and their form of government.

BTW - I just saw a video of the basic swab test. I'll take the virus, thank you.

Jin+Guice
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Re: COVID-19

Post by Jin+Guice »

Have those of you who are going out noticed that people aren't staying in anymore? Starting this past weekend, I've noticed way more people driving around and on the street. Mask compliance is slightly higher than before (around 20%) and social distancing compliance is about the same.

In the least ERE news I can provide for you fine people: the hair salon I go to went out of business :(. I talked to my friend who owns a local coffee shop chain (3 stores), a coffee roaster and a clothing/ jewelry store. She says she is just hanging on by a thread (they are doing coffee delivery). New Orleans is almost all small businesses, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out here.

classical_Liberal
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Re: COVID-19

Post by classical_Liberal »

jacob wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:00 am
TL;DR - I take it that comorbidities are not intended to infer the entire population but just count the people who actually died. Sampling bias seems inherent to the definition [of comorbidity]??
Right, but if >90% of everyone over a certain age has a specific comorbidity, it's basically just repetitive to list it as a comorbidity when dealing with an infectious disease that targets geriatric populations. The idea is misleading. IOW, basically everyone over a certain age has HTN, so of course when they die it's a comorbidity. It probably has nothing to do with why they succumbed to COVID. That happened because they were old, and the cluster of health events that accompanies old age as a natural process of the human lifecycle.

So no, if they are part of the massive minority that don't have HTN (ie probably just not diagnosed) the are probably just as at risk, unless some specific correlative evidence beyond guessing comes into play.

In general, non medical scientists (many on this forum) have this tendency to think of direct causation wrt to health or health care treatments. This generally just isn't the case, healthcare science has too many confounding variables.

Also, thanks for the Maths answer a couple pages ago. I Haven't had a chance to get back to the forum until today.

classical_Liberal
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Re: COVID-19

Post by classical_Liberal »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:33 pm
Have those of you who are going out noticed that people aren't staying in anymore? Starting this past weekend, I've noticed way more people driving around and on the street. Mask compliance is slightly higher than before (around 20%) and social distancing compliance is about the same.
Winter finally let up around my home and I've had basically the same observations. I don't think people would cooperate with a longer term lockdown, even if it was mandated at this point. There is a huge winter hibernation effect up here... and it's over. Incidentally, our COVID cases are ramping up.

OTCW
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Re: COVID-19

Post by OTCW »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:33 pm
Have those of you who are going out noticed that people aren't staying in anymore? Starting this past weekend, I've noticed way more people driving around and on the street. Mask compliance is slightly higher than before (around 20%) and social distancing compliance is about the same.
I go to the office one day a week with four days home. The commute in this morning was as busy as I have seen it since this started.

thrifty++
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Re: COVID-19

Post by thrifty++ »

Only 2 new cases of virus in NZ today - one confirmed one probable. This is the lowest daily increase so far.

Total cases are 1474 but 348 of those are only probable.

This is day two out of lock-down. Or the lesser lockdown. All non contact business has resumed. Things have really come back to life more than I expected them to. Huge queues for takeaways. Lots of people out on the road in cars. Its still a semi-lockdown though - with lots of restrictions.

Schools re-opened yesterday but only 1% of children attended. Its optional. Most parents are still too scared to send their kids back to school.

1229 cases have recovered so only 226 active cases now.

19 deaths but no serious/critical cases at this point in time.

2.7% of the population has been tested now.

Govt announced a couple of days ago that there have been no more cases of undetected community transmission. Meaning that the govt knows exactly where all new cases are coming from at this stage.

George the original one
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Re: COVID-19

Post by George the original one »

According to this article, no state has yet met the 14-day guideline. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure Alaska, Montana, and Hawaii have at least met the spirit of the guideline as their new case weekly rates are at 22 (or less), so a small cluster of 5 cases will distort the trend.
"The reality is, we have to find ways of doing business that are a little different," he [Michael Wolfe, Duke University]said. "There needs to be a real introspective look at the way we reopen, because this is not over. It's not over for the rest of 2020, to be quite frank."
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2020/0 ... /24142686/

Jason

Re: COVID-19

Post by Jason »

George the original one wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:29 pm
One to file in the unexpected and unintended consequences...

People accidentally poisoned by household cleaners spike since stay-home order


https://katu.com/news/coronavirus/peopl ... home-order
Word of warning - they're looking into " pool cleaner" guy's wife. Turns out she previously attacked him with a bird house.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/29/homicide- ... loroquine/

den18
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Re: COVID-19

Post by den18 »

What do we think of the perspective in this article: https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/ ... M9BPXuXkd4

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Bankai
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Re: COVID-19

Post by Bankai »

@den18: yeah, that's pretty much the 'cure is worse than the disease' argument which is one side of the discussion in this topic. It only gets stronger with time as we get more data on the virus, revise IFR down, and realise just how much damage the lockdown will cause long-term.

den18
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Re: COVID-19

Post by den18 »

@Bankai: Yes, I am leaning towards that perspective. Are there counterpoints or data that shows the other side? I would be interested in learning more about them. No one wants more people to die, but even just the cancelling of medical services and early screening feel like they will cause a lot of harm.

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Ego
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Re: COVID-19

Post by Ego »

Each time we return to the US after long trips abroad we've been struck by the ever increasing level of indulgence provided to the anxious and the fragile. The rapid rise of emotional support animals and the banishment of nuts from every school have been surprising but little more than shrug-worthy. Though I have to admit, it has been rather comical when the pet-allergy people and the emotional support animal people showcase their competing weaknesses for control of dorms or airplanes. But the changes have been incremental and rarely rose above the level of an eyeroll or two. Until now.

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusi ... lity-check *
We’ve been stampeded into a regime of social control that is unprecedented in our history. Our economy has been shattered. Ordinary people have been terrorized by death-infused propaganda designed to motivate obedience to the limits on free movement. We have been reduced to life as medical subjects in our condition of self-quarantine. As unemployment numbers skyrocket and Congress spends trillions, the political stakes rise.

The experts, professionals, bureaucrats, and public officials who did this to us have tremendous incentives to close ranks and say, “It is not wise to tell people that the danger was never grave and now has passed.” Sustaining the coronavirus narrative will require many lies. It will be up to us to insist on the truth.
We just experienced a precedent, the first nationwide example of the tyranny of the weak and afraid. Rights were violated in an effort to suppress the virus. Clearly the government has the right to quarantine those who test positive for Covid. What is not so clear is whether the government can quarantine those who were not positive. But it did. And nobody complained much. So the next time around it will be modus operandi.

Trouble is, the next time around it may not be used in defense of the weak and anxious. It may be used against them.

*Yes, I am acutely aware of my strange bedfellow.

George the original one
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Re: COVID-19

Post by George the original one »

And USA hits the 60,000 death mark that Trump embraced a little over a week ago as being probable in August.

As far as the economy goes, it is doing pretty well here on the Oregon coast considering the loss of tourism. Motels/hotels, theaters, salons, gyms, and tourist traps remain closed, but only about half the restaurants as the other half have figured out curbside service. Just about all other stores are open except clothing & books. Construction, logging, and fishing are all active. Because tourism is a large chunk of the local employers, unemployment is over 20% at the moment, yet everything else is doing a good business, so 20% unemployment does not yet show. Locals all understand tourism comes & goes, that there are good years and bad years.

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Ego
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Re: COVID-19

Post by Ego »

WHO lauds Sweden as a ‘model’ in coronavirus fight for resisting lockdown :lol:

https://nypost.com/2020/04/29/who-lauds ... -lockdown/
“I think if we are to reach a new normal, Sweden represents a model if we wish to get back to a society in which we don’t have lockdowns,” Ryan said.

theanimal
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Re: COVID-19

Post by theanimal »

nvm

Riggerjack
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Re: COVID-19

Post by Riggerjack »

Ego, you and Augustus have both been posting quite a bit about the economic harm of the lockdown. Our suppressed freedums, etc.

And I don't disagree with you about either. Rather, I disagree about extent and importance.

I was surprised by the lockdown. I didn't think we would get here before the "bodies in the streets" level of pandemic.

Myself, I expected a pandemic, of some sort, at some point, and this one has been pretty mild, all things considered. Hopefully, it will continue to be.

But you keep posting these silly stories, to these silly studies, and the horror stories about the harsh effects of this lockdown. And I find myself in the weird position of pointing out the flaws in the studies, and the sad version of journalism we have, when in reality, I think the situation is far worse than the headlines are saying, economically.

The studies showing "antibodies are common, so fatality rates are exaggerated" all have the same systemic problem in their data collection. The Stanford study was so bad the PIs wife sent out an email appealing to friends and family who thought they could have already contracted the virus that if they participated in the study, they would get a free FDA approved test for the antibodies, that would clear them to get back out there. Obviously, this isn't a representative sample of the public. One can't fix sampling like this. The NYC study took a sample of people who were at a grocery store and we're willing to be tested, in NYC, during all of this. :roll: I shouldn't be so disappointed, maybe sampling is normally this bad, but peer review catches the worst of it.

These studies are being pulled off of "preprint servers". This means that they are being pulled before peer review can point out the flaws. That there are so many of these studies, with such consistent errors speaks more to educational faults than the general accuracy of the studies, I think. That editors keep publishing them just shows how little trust we should have for journalism. This isn't very complex, or difficult to understand. Yet it keeps getting repeated. Draw your own conclusions.

Right now, we are helicoptering money, so there are competing interests trying to show how damaged they are, in an effort to get the helicopter to fly over them. Like dramatic teenagers showing how they cut themselves. And like with those teens, it speaks to a problem, though often not the one they are highlighting.

I find myself pointing out the silliness of their claims, when I really do think we are in an economic mess. Yet I never get to talking about that mess. So let me try to get what I am thinking down in one post.

Prior to the virus, we had the longest period between recessions in US history. The everything bubble, it was called. Think back to the investment threads, and how conservative people were getting. We were due for a recession. Overdue.

And we dicided to kick this one off with a booming kick. Lockdown. I'm not arguing that the lockdown isn't causing economic havoc. I'm arguing that it is currently suppressing the havoc.

When we lift the lockdown, all hell is going to break loose. A lot of jobs and businesses are going to be gone. And it really doesn't much matter how much longer this lockdown goes on. Does it really matter if GDP is down 33% or 35% right after the lockdown? What if we drop significantly more after? It's ugly either way. While some will be quick to point out that the difference is pretty big to those responsible for the 34th percentile, I am more concerned with how long this recession goes on, and what the recovery looks like.

The way I see it, even among the asymptomatic, there is about 50% GGOs (ground glass opacities) in the scans. But the CFR seems to be acceptable, so long as hospitals are not overwhelmed. Less so afterwards. Managing the dance well means fewer deaths, but also far less damage to the economy. Fewer long term health consequences among the survivors.

I don't think we have to lockdown forever, merely until masks are common and cheap. Maybe not even that long, but probably until about then would be best.

So, long term, the way young people of today will remember 2020 could be: "The year we had that lockdown, schools closed, and I couldn't get a job, and Mary wouldn't go out with me because of "social distancing"..."

Or 2020 could be "the year we had a lockdown, we closed schools, then when the hospitals were overrun, we started C19 clinics in the closed schools, and everyone got real sick. I remember after I got over it, I got a job volunteering at the clinic, changing bedpans and sheets. By the time Dad got over it, the plant closed. The next year my folks lost the house, and mom never got her health back. When I was a kid, I remember my parents worried about me being a boomerang son, coming back to live with them after college. Nobody was worried that they would be sharing my basement apartment in my thirties..."

There is lots of room for this to get much worse.

Much of our economy is based on inessentials, as is being made really clear, right now. How much are people going to demand those inessentials, after this lockdown? Sure, people miss their luxuries. But will they spend like they did before the lockdown? Maybe. What about all those closed businesses, and lost jobs? Do you see anyone thinking now is the time to take that risk they have wanted to take? Expand the business? Change careers?

What about the government fixing the economy? What more could the Fed do? What more can we load up on the Federal budget? With C19, and local economic problems, who wants to buy treasuries? China? What's that going to look like?

We have a highly leveraged economy. And leverage requires confidence. How low the GDP goes, isn't depending on how long the lockdown goes on, that damage is done. It's dependent on how "the dance" goes, and what that dance does to our confidence in our futures. If we feel secure, we will spend, invest, and expand. If we don't feel secure, we won't. Look to survivors of the great depression, for what that looks like. Before the great depression, people were better prepared for hard times than we are currently. What do you think people who used to have inessential jobs are going to be doing, when people close their wallets from necessity, rather than frugality?

The lockdown ain't great, or well done, or well timed. But it's not the problem. It's just one of many, and certainly not the worst. Just the most obvious, right now.

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Ego
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Re: COVID-19

Post by Ego »

@Rigger, I agree that we were due for a downturn. Certainly some of the resulting human devastation may have happened over time even without the lockdown, but the scale and abruptness of the lockdown caused unnecessary harm and killed a large percentage of businesses that would have survived but slowed during a normal downturn. It was unnecessary.

Locked