COVID-19

Health, Fitness, Food, Insurance, Longevity, Diets,...
steveo73
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:52 pm

Re: COVID-19

Post by steveo73 »

jacob wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:05 pm
The Swedish model is not completely open season with people running around licking door knobs and sneezing at each other pretending it's not a big deal. Some people and businesses are taking things into their own hands and isolating/closing on their own. Almost half the kids are kept home from school. It's similar to the situation in the US before the governors started acting. This does have some effect on the economy.
There is social distancing going on. It's just not as extreme. The economy is also going to be impacted no matter what happens.

It's not like there is this herd immunity approach which is working fantastically and is well backed up by scientific research.

dashh
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: COVID-19

Post by dashh »


George the original one
Posts: 5406
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
Location: Wettest corner of Orygun

Re: COVID-19

Post by George the original one »

Ego wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:19 pm
French study found 25.9% have produced Covid-19 antibodies.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 20071134v1
Context... participants were associated with a school, avg age was 37. The rate of antibodies was significantly higher than the donors to two nearby blood banks.
Methods: Between 30 March and 4 April 2020, we conducted a retrospective closed cohort study among pupils, their parents and siblings, as well as teachers and non-teaching staff of a high-school located in Oise.
The proportion of donors with anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in two nearby blood banks of the Oise department was 3.0% (95% CI = 1.1-6.4).



Conclusion... herd immunity will take time.
Interpretation: The relatively low IAR observed in an area where SARS-CoV-2 actively circulated weeks before confinement measures indicates that establishing herd immunity will take time, and that lifting these measures in France will be long and complex.

George the original one
Posts: 5406
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
Location: Wettest corner of Orygun

Re: COVID-19

Post by George the original one »

George the original one wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:19 pm
My quick estimate says even if USA COVID-19 deaths peak this week, don't be surprised when the death toll reaches 60,000 deaths next Monday and probably 100,000 deaths before end of May.
49,759 deaths as I write this, so I probably will miss my estimate (yay) by a couple hundred (boo) and it will be Tuesday that the USA unfortunately goes past 60,000 deaths, still with a weekly rate above 18,000 deaths per week unless miracles happen (or someone quits recording deaths).

classical_Liberal
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:05 am

Re: COVID-19

Post by classical_Liberal »

George the original one wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:10 am
Very few counties are tracking recoveries.
Thanks. This is what I assumed. Can someone with a mathematical background answer this:
classical_Liberal wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:52 am
How can accurate models be made if don't even know how many currently active cases exist?
It seems to me we're just adding another variable which reduces effectiveness of any model of what will happen when the economy is reopened. Also what level of new case spikes should cause worry. This data could easily be obtained by simply defining a "recovery" as "X" days with resolved symptomatology and having some people make a few hundred thousand phone calls/Emails.

User avatar
C40
Posts: 2774
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:30 am

Re: COVID-19

Post by C40 »

Anyone have information on estimated death counts Ecuador? The sites that show reported death numbers have quite a low number for Ecuador, but I'm seeing reports and videos of many bodies left on the streets, washing up in the ocean, etc.

User avatar
fiby41
Posts: 1695
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:09 am
Location: India
Contact:

Re: COVID-19

Post by fiby41 »

Half a million tests have been performed so far. That's under 400 tests for every million people. 5% test positive and of them 3% have died and 20% recovered. Doubling time is still 8 days.
70% of highway construction has resumed. Public works under rural employment guarantee scheme have resumed.
Red: more than 15 cases.
Orange: less 15 cases in 14 days
Green: no new cases in 28 days
Districts have been categorized as such. Green is open internally while the others under lockdown.

I'm supposed to be in red with 18 containment zones and 164 in my ward alone but we've honking at intersections on one end and police vans saying 'Dont leave your home without a valid reason. Lend us your cooperation' in the opposite lane.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 17143
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: COVID-19

Post by jacob »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:25 pm
Thanks. This is what I assumed. Can someone with a mathematical background answer this...
Not really, ... well sort of. There are three different types of models I'm aware of. The IHME is a phenomenological model. Such a model is curve fitting US numbers to parametric curves based on outbreaks elsewhere. IOW, not knowing/postulating the exact dynamics, one assumes that it's everywhere the same and then go with that. If one has access to a lot of computational power, it's also possible to make agent-based models. These are similar to computer games like e.g. The Sims in that there's a model for different types of individuals, how they meet, how they interact, etc. One would have to specify these agents to match reality closely. The third type is the SIR-type models. They look like this,

dS/dt = -beta*I*S
dI/dt = +beta*I*S-gamma*I
dR/dt = +gamma*I,

where S+I+R=1 are the fractions of susceptible, infected, and recovered, respectively; beta indicates the likelihood of a susceptible person transferring to infected status based on their overlap (simple random statistics of drawing an I and an S from a population); and gamma is the removal parameter from the infected group going to either recovered or dead or isolated.

If you start with a virgin population, S~1. The second equation then reduces to dI/dt = +beta*I-gamma*I. It immediately follows that the reproduction number or the R0 that everybody is talking about is R0=beta/gamma because it's the ratio between how many an I person can infect in a given time before they are "removed" via gamma. IOW, if the beta rate (1/person^2/s) is 5 times higher than the gamma rate (1/person/s), then R0 is 5 (per person).

Social distancing affects beta and isolation affects gamma. Both therefore control R0. If immunity is a thing, then S will reduce over time and this will reduce I*S. If immunity is NOT a thing, then the equations become more like this:

dS/dt = -beta*I*S+alpha*R
dI/dt = +beta*I*S-gamma*I
dR/dt = +gamma*I-alpha*R

as recovered people get reintroduced into the susceptible group. alpha is affected both by natural loss of immunity and also by isolated people going outside to meeting other people again.

Add: If immunity holds for a while, you're need another variable to track that. Ditto if people can be infected for a while before they get infecting. This framework can be expanded ad nauseum and would ultimately converge on an agent-based model (although those are more likely to be formulate with discrete numbers instead of differential equations.)

Solving the first set of equations is relatively easy and somewhat robust. Solving the latter is a royal mess and can easily get dynamic (second wave). One would need a very good model for alpha, beta, and gamma because the results would be heavily dependent on the time evolution of those. This is also why the predictions of adaptive systems tend to come out less pessimistic than initially assumed. My rule of thumb is to take the current worst case and divide by half after and only after a majority of people take it seriously. Why half ... just because.

As a modeller, one would assume the structure of these equations and then try to fit the time evolution on actual observations. This will tell us what the parameters are and from this we can derive things like R0. This method crashes and burns IFF the assumed structure is NOT the correct structure because it is either wrong or overly simplistic. Conversely, if it is too complex, it becomes possible to fit anything but doing so also means that any conclusion about variables is suspect. This is why parsimony is practically a religion for data modelling. There are statistical methods for calculating precision based on how many variables one applies. I forget what they're called, but adding in extra variables is heavily penalized.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 17143
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: COVID-19

Post by jacob »

Actually, I didn't really answer the question... but knowing the R0 tells you how quickly the I joins the R group. If people ran around being infectious for a loooong time, then R0 would be higher because gamma would be lower. R0 could also be higher from a high beta but that would suggest another transmission method e.g. airborne like measles or persistent like anthrax or prions. So we know how many people have recovered largely based on knowing R0 and the death rate.

The R group doesn't refer to being personally asymptomatic (again) but whether the person can still infect others.

Insofar a fraction of I joins R by dying in a predictable known way, this also indicates how big I is. (If only we could agree on the death rate.)

Early on, the only equation that matters is the dI/dt ... notice it can be written dI/dt=(beta-gamma)I or dI/dt=gamma(R0-1)I the solution of which is an exponential function determined indirectly by the death rate and the doubling time. This describes the simple models I did in the beginning of this thread. However, this simplification is no longer valid since the number of susceptible people are dropping (I*S is no longer ~I).

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 6689
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: COVID-19

Post by Ego »

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/corona ... 60406.html
About 6 percent of Miami-Dade’s population — about 165,000 residents — have antibodies indicating a past infection by the novel coronavirus, dwarfing the state health department’s tally of about 10,600 cases, according to preliminary study results announced by University of Miami researchers Friday.
Implied est IFR 0.2%.

No way to know how many with a robust immune system were infected but did not even have to produce antibodies to fight it off.

User avatar
Bankai
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:28 am

Re: COVID-19

Post by Bankai »

Why do we need lockdown again?

Image

George the original one
Posts: 5406
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
Location: Wettest corner of Orygun

Re: COVID-19

Post by George the original one »

1,200 participants selected by random phone numbers, so comparable quality to the NYC study. They used a binary test rather than one that showed the strength of the antibodies. Conclusions appear to have a statistical range that is meaningful.
UM researchers used statistical methods to account for the limitations of the antibody test, which is known to generate some false positive results. The researchers say they are 95% certain that the true amount of infection lies between 4.4% and 7.9% of the population, with 6% representing the best estimate.

That would mean about 165,000 estimated infections in Miami-Dade, with the margin of error equating to 123,000 residents on the low end and 221,000 residents on the high end.
Death rate of 0.1% to 0.2%, significantly lower than NYC. I wonder how length of time since first infections affects death rates?

George the original one
Posts: 5406
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
Location: Wettest corner of Orygun

Re: COVID-19

Post by George the original one »

Bankai wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:02 pm
Why do we need lockdown again?
I'm confused about that chart. At the top, it says SWEDEN, but the bottom indicates it is only STOCKHOLM. If it is just Stockholm, then there is a logic error because the weekly rate of new infections for SWEDEN is still rising. And if it is for SWEDEN, why add Stockholm to the bottom of the chart and how do you reconcile that hospitalizations are slowing down while the rate of new infections is rising?

bostonimproper
Posts: 614
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:45 am

Re: COVID-19

Post by bostonimproper »

Blood tests show 14% of people are now immune to covid-19 in one town in Germany
Now, after searching blood from 500 residents for antibodies to the virus, scientists at a nearby university say they have determined that one in seven have been infected and are therefore “immune.” Some of those people would have had no symptoms at all.
...
From the result of their blood survey, the German team estimated the death rate in the municipality at 0.37% overall, a figure significantly lower than what’s shown on a dashboard maintained by Johns Hopkins, where the death rate in Germany among reported cases is 2%.
I'm seeing a lot of sero-surveys that come to right around this estimated 0.2-0.4% fatality rate. If it were just one or two, I'd remain skeptical, but they all seem to pointing this way, some using custom assays, so I'm updating my priors. One good useful thought I saw on Twitter is "The different rates in different areas (upstate versus NYC) also suggest that these numbers are likely to be at least roughly accurate" versus, say, all being biased to roughly similar numbers due to the same low specificity tests.

On the one hand, this is much better than a 1-2% IFR, which is what it seemed like this might be going into the pandemic. On the other hand 0.2-0.4% IFR (coupled with a likely much higher than flu attack rate) means it is right in that sweet spot where this thread is going to be endless lockdown-or-no-lockdown debates forever.

Riggerjack
Posts: 3199
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: COVID-19

Post by Riggerjack »

Locally, the sheriff of Snohomish county (third largest county in state by population, and home of US patient zero) followed up the governors latest press conference with an announcement that he wouldn't be enforcing any of the lockdown rules. Yay for politics! :roll:

Went to home Depot and Lowe's today. Fewer masks, less caution, more like BAU among the customers. Employees were following social distancing and masked, though.

The lockdown order is due to go until May 4th, with revisions scheduled then. Looking around, I expect we will be looking at a new upward trend about then... :?

And on a positive note, one of the four people I know who was out of work, is back at work. Boeing is back at it.

User avatar
Bankai
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:28 am

Re: COVID-19

Post by Bankai »

WHO continues to review the evidence on antibody responses to SARS-CoV-2 infection.2-17 Most of these studies show that people who have recovered from infection have antibodies to the virus. However, some of these people have very low levels of neutralizing antibodies in their blood,4 suggesting that cellular immunity may also be critical for recovery. As of 24 April 2020, no study has evaluated whether the presence of antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 confers immunity to subsequent infection by this virus in humans.
https://www.who.int/news-room/commentar ... f-covid-19

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - there were only a handful of cases reported of a person getting reinfected with SARS-CoV-2. If antibodies weren't protecting from reinfection, we'd hear about many more examples considering we are 3 months in with 2.8M infected. Also, from an ethical point of view, purposefully infecting people who recovered with a potentially deadly virus won't be easy to get approval from medical authorities.

Jin+Guice
Posts: 1511
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:15 am

Re: COVID-19

Post by Jin+Guice »

How are the death rates being determined with the results of these antibody tests?

My suspicion is that current deaths are divided by the infected population implied by the tests. This would fail to take into account that many more who are currently infected will likely die. So the death rates would be underestimated. It still seems unlikely that death rate will climb to 1-2% if the antibody estimates are true.

Was there any follow up on Vo? Did the death rate stay around 1% or did it climb as SKs has?

If the goal of the lockdown was to avoid overwhelming the hospitals, it seems like we've done that for this wave of the virus in most places in Western Europe and the U.S.

George the original one
Posts: 5406
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
Location: Wettest corner of Orygun

Re: COVID-19

Post by George the original one »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:03 am
If the goal of the lockdown was to avoid overwhelming the hospitals, it seems like we've done that for this wave of the virus in most places in Western Europe and the U.S.
Yes and no. This wave is barely halfway over and each European nation is generating new infections between 8,000 and 38,000 per week. USA is still going sideways at 200k new infections per week.

While a few states have peaked, at least as many are climbing (some to an even higher 2nd peak: see California, Washington). A poorly planned loosening of restrictions will likely result in the nation's infections pingponging back & forth between states. Half the flyover states with no/low/late restrictions are still trending upward and have more infections than Oregon, with South Dakota getting close.

George the original one
Posts: 5406
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
Location: Wettest corner of Orygun

Re: COVID-19

Post by George the original one »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:03 am
How are the death rates being determined with the results of these antibody tests?
To me, a lot of the death rates are dependent on the demographics of who is being infected. For NYC at 14+% infected, it appears there was little protection for the elderly, so their rate is ~1%, while Miami-Dade County with 6% infected is down at the 0.1%-0.2%. We can also suppose that Miami-Dade County has not been exposed as long NYC, which probably helps.

BeyondtheWrap
Posts: 598
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:38 pm
Location: NYC

Re: COVID-19

Post by BeyondtheWrap »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:03 am
My suspicion is that current deaths are divided by the infected population implied by the tests. This would fail to take into account that many more who are currently infected will likely die. So the death rates would be underestimated.
Hmm, not necessarily. When comparing current total cases to current total deaths, the problem you note arises since many of the current cases are going to die but just haven’t died yet. But, since antibodies develop late in the course of the illness, most people with antibodies have already recovered. So we can consider them to be closed cases. Deaths are also obviously closed cases. Since we care about the final outcome, it is best to only use closed cases for the calculation.

So, current deaths / (people with antibodies + current deaths) should be a reasonable approximation for death rate.

Locked